Marcus Smart contract

[kozlodoev]

Actually what stat can you point to about Marcus leads to winning?

Try "Wins" and "Minutes Played".

[ChillyWilly]

Actually what stat can you point to about Marcus leads to winning?

Try "Wins" and "Minutes Played".

isn't that WS?

[kozlodoev]

Actually what stat can you point to about Marcus leads to winning?

Try "Wins" and "Minutes Played".

isn't that WS?

No. Roughly speaking, win share is calculated based on a regression model that relates box score statistics to wins. So a player who fills up the stat sheet will generally have a higher win share.

[nickagneta]

Actually what stat can you point to about Marcus leads to winning?

Try "Wins" and "Minutes Played".

Not to mention that most defensive stats, advanced or simple, don't truly measure the impact of a great defensive player.

[BitterJim]

Down here in Rocky Top, I don't get the day-to-day details on Celtics.  Please explain to me why we did not extend Smart's contract. According to Marcus, he was not asking for anything unreasonable. I hope Danny does not get carried away being too cold and calculating.

Marcus Smart is exactly the type of player you win titles with - yes, he needs to improve shot selection, but that is on Stevens. Smart's intangibles and amazing ability to deliver big plays in crunch time cannot be replaced. I also am very much enjoying the Celtics return to being the bully on the block. We lost that when we stupidly traded Perk. Marcus Smart is the guard's version of Kendrick Perkins with a little extra talent as well.

What was the real sticking point with the extension ??

We may never know how far apart they were but it definitely serves the Celtics to wait.  As other have said, Terry Rozier allows the Celtics to sit back without too much concern.  Nobody can replicate all of the intangibles that Marcus brings on defense but Terry fills these gaps in other areas.  Marcus is my favorite Celtic so it will be interesting to see how things go in the off-season.

To be honest it's probably best for Marcus to wait it out in free agency.  We don't know how the landscape of the NBA will change in regards to Superstar players.  A newly signed Marcus could be included in any off-season trade that Danny Ainge is considering.  Marcus at least has some leverage to dictate his future while all the craziness of the NBA off-season is going on.  Someone  correct me if I am wrong, but the Celtics can only sign and trade Marcus to a team that he accepts a contract with in restricted free agency.

All sign and trades require the player to want to sign with the team. You can't sign and trade someone against their will.

Yeah I know that a sign and trade can't happen without the players agreement.  What I meant is that if the Celtics match another teams offer in RFA then they can't trade Marcus for 3 months.  The only exception is that the Celtics can negotiate with a team that Marcus agrees to sign with right?  For example, let's say Marcus accepts a deal with Brooklyn at the end of the season.  The Celtics are allowed to approach the Nets and posture as if they are going to match the deal.  This could potentially open the door for a sign and trade scenario.

If Marcus signed prior to this season then Ainge could move him at any point next summer.  If I am Marcus then I prefer to have the leverage during the off-season.  There is always a risk of injury but I think it was a good idea for Marcus to wait even if they weren't far off on the money.

Ah, okay.  That gets a little more complex.

Basically, we can only sign and trade him as long as he doesn't sign an offer sheet.  So as long as the interested team holds off on the offer sheet (and, presumably, the only teams interested in a sign and trade like this would be teams that didn't have space for the offer sheet), and he doesn't sign an offer sheet with anybody else, he'd be eligible for a sign and trade.  If he signs an offer sheet, then we can't trade him (since matching would make him ineligible for a trade and not matching would mean that another team had him)

I don't think the scenario is a realistic one.  From my experience, it's usually the team that's signing the player that approaches the "old" team about a sign and trade, and usually for the ability to pay the player a little more (as you can do in a sign and trade).  If marcus and a team agree to a contract (and everyone is cool with it) what incentive does the other team have to engage in a sign and trade?  I guess it guarantees that they get the player but I don't think it would play out that way.  More than likely they just sign the contract and dare the "old" team to match it.

What scenario? I said that the only situation where it makes sense is a team that doesn't have the cap space to send him an offer sheet (aka "the team that's signing the player [...] for the ability to pay the player a little more"), and uses a sign-and-trade in order to do so.  The CBA disallows sign-and-trades if an offer sheet has been signed, so Smart couldn't sign an offer sheet if he wanted to go to that team in a sign-and-trade.  You also can't give a team assets to not match a deal, but you can give them assets in a sign-and-trade (which can be a bit of a wink-wink nudge-nudge way of avoiding that)

Of course, the team looking to give him more would leap at it if Smart would agree to the same contract for less (aka signed the offer sheet), but there's always the potential that there are  different contracts Smart would agree to (for example: Smart would take less in a 2 year deal, which would allow the team to send him an offer sheet.  BUT, he'd also be willing to sign a 4 year deal if they paid him more each year, which they can't send an offer sheet for.  So, the team can look into a sign-and-trade in order to lock him up long term, but if he signs the offer sheet then the deal can't happen)

[Eja117]

Rozier is far more efficient and is progressing. Smart's not.

Yeah, he's budged from shooting .367 last year to .373 this year (so far).

Offensively, Rozier is a chucker who tends to pound the ball too much. That he's "far more efficient" than Smart is largely fiction -- his career FG% is in fact a hair under Smart's.

Look at what they produce per minute. He's more productive.

[droopdog7]

Unless Marcus comes at a complete bargain, I’m not resigning him at all.

He is not going to come at a bargain. Other teams GMs recognize his unique skill set and will pay him. He helps you win games.

I know.

What stat backs up Marcus helps you win games? First one that pops into my mind is Win Share where he was middle of the pack for Celtics last season. Maybe you do VORP where again he was middle of the pack on Celtics last season. Don't bother looking up so far this season he's off to a terrible start for advanced stats.

Actually what stat can you point to about Marcus leads to winning?

Sorry, I meant, I know, he's not going to come at a bargain.  My bad.

[kozlodoev]

Rozier is far more efficient and is progressing. Smart's not.

Yeah, he's budged from shooting .367 last year to .373 this year (so far).

Offensively, Rozier is a chucker who tends to pound the ball too much. That he's "far more efficient" than Smart is largely fiction -- his career FG% is in fact a hair under Smart's.

Look at what they produce per minute. He's more productive.

So we went from "efficient" through "progressing" to "productive". Are the goalposts moving any more?

Just in case you wondered, even with the moving goalposts your assertion is still false: Smart produces 12/5/5 per 36. Rozier? Why, 11/7/4.

[tstorey_97]

Firstly, Ainge has already decided.  He has a value for Smart and if someone else exceeds it? We lose him.

Smart is not about offense. That is an understatement. Due to his style of play, he can make some amazing offensive plays when acting as a facilitator. Defensively, he is extraordinary in a league that insists on offensive competence.

Smart calls the execution when he is on the court. He plays harder than anyone else, thus, he is the team's leader of a form.

He wants it more than anyone else and expresses this through his decisions. We can all agree with 2:00 remaining in a tie game, we want Smart on the floor first, then, the rest of the team. The opposing coach has to match Smart's defensive commitment. He has to include the Celtic's "back up point guard" in his offensive play calls and the opposing players know this.

I doubt Ainge will go into luxury tax to sign Marcus Smart, but, if he does? We know who will be calling the defense on the floor in game six with 1:59 to go in a tie game against Golden State won't we?


 

[Eja117]

Rozier is far more efficient and is progressing. Smart's not.

Yeah, he's budged from shooting .367 last year to .373 this year (so far).

Offensively, Rozier is a chucker who tends to pound the ball too much. That he's "far more efficient" than Smart is largely fiction -- his career FG% is in fact a hair under Smart's.

Look at what they produce per minute. He's more productive.

So we went from "efficient" through "progressing" to "productive". Are the goalposts moving any more?

Just in case you wondered, even with the moving goalposts your assertion is still false: Smart produces 12/5/5 per 36. Rozier? Why, 11/7/4.

Since Smart is such a great defender why don't you tell us about steals now. Oh and who fouls more? And why don't you tell us all about Smart's sub 60% free throw shooting and hi sub 30% 3 point shooting after allllllll thaaattt work this summer.

There is no way on Earth to suggest Smart should get a lot more money than Rozier. None. Especially when you consider he's been in the league an extra year longer....hence....he's not progressing. Regressing maybe.

[droopdog7]

Down here in Rocky Top, I don't get the day-to-day details on Celtics.  Please explain to me why we did not extend Smart's contract. According to Marcus, he was not asking for anything unreasonable. I hope Danny does not get carried away being too cold and calculating.

Marcus Smart is exactly the type of player you win titles with - yes, he needs to improve shot selection, but that is on Stevens. Smart's intangibles and amazing ability to deliver big plays in crunch time cannot be replaced. I also am very much enjoying the Celtics return to being the bully on the block. We lost that when we stupidly traded Perk. Marcus Smart is the guard's version of Kendrick Perkins with a little extra talent as well.

What was the real sticking point with the extension ??

We may never know how far apart they were but it definitely serves the Celtics to wait.  As other have said, Terry Rozier allows the Celtics to sit back without too much concern.  Nobody can replicate all of the intangibles that Marcus brings on defense but Terry fills these gaps in other areas.  Marcus is my favorite Celtic so it will be interesting to see how things go in the off-season.

To be honest it's probably best for Marcus to wait it out in free agency.  We don't know how the landscape of the NBA will change in regards to Superstar players.  A newly signed Marcus could be included in any off-season trade that Danny Ainge is considering.  Marcus at least has some leverage to dictate his future while all the craziness of the NBA off-season is going on.  Someone  correct me if I am wrong, but the Celtics can only sign and trade Marcus to a team that he accepts a contract with in restricted free agency.

All sign and trades require the player to want to sign with the team. You can't sign and trade someone against their will.

Yeah I know that a sign and trade can't happen without the players agreement.  What I meant is that if the Celtics match another teams offer in RFA then they can't trade Marcus for 3 months.  The only exception is that the Celtics can negotiate with a team that Marcus agrees to sign with right?  For example, let's say Marcus accepts a deal with Brooklyn at the end of the season.  The Celtics are allowed to approach the Nets and posture as if they are going to match the deal.  This could potentially open the door for a sign and trade scenario.

If Marcus signed prior to this season then Ainge could move him at any point next summer.  If I am Marcus then I prefer to have the leverage during the off-season.  There is always a risk of injury but I think it was a good idea for Marcus to wait even if they weren't far off on the money.

Ah, okay.  That gets a little more complex.

Basically, we can only sign and trade him as long as he doesn't sign an offer sheet.  So as long as the interested team holds off on the offer sheet (and, presumably, the only teams interested in a sign and trade like this would be teams that didn't have space for the offer sheet), and he doesn't sign an offer sheet with anybody else, he'd be eligible for a sign and trade.  If he signs an offer sheet, then we can't trade him (since matching would make him ineligible for a trade and not matching would mean that another team had him)

I don't think the scenario is a realistic one.  From my experience, it's usually the team that's signing the player that approaches the "old" team about a sign and trade, and usually for the ability to pay the player a little more (as you can do in a sign and trade).  If marcus and a team agree to a contract (and everyone is cool with it) what incentive does the other team have to engage in a sign and trade?  I guess it guarantees that they get the player but I don't think it would play out that way.  More than likely they just sign the contract and dare the "old" team to match it.

What scenario? I said that the only situation where it makes sense is a team that doesn't have the cap space to send him an offer sheet (aka "the team that's signing the player [...] for the ability to pay the player a little more"), and uses a sign-and-trade in order to do so.  The CBA disallows sign-and-trades if an offer sheet has been signed, so Smart couldn't sign an offer sheet if he wanted to go to that team in a sign-and-trade.  You also can't give a team assets to not match a deal, but you can give them assets in a sign-and-trade (which can be a bit of a wink-wink nudge-nudge way of avoiding that)

Of course, the team looking to give him more would leap at it if Smart would agree to the same contract for less (aka signed the offer sheet), but there's always the potential that there are  different contracts Smart would agree to (for example: Smart would take less in a 2 year deal, which would allow the team to send him an offer sheet.  BUT, he'd also be willing to sign a 4 year deal if they paid him more each year, which they can't send an offer sheet for.  So, the team can look into a sign-and-trade in order to lock him up long term, but if he signs the offer sheet then the deal can't happen)

Where exactly did you say this?  And why would smart be negotiating with a team with not enough cap space without reasonable assurance that they the team would clear space?  On the chance that his current team would come to them after the fact and offer a sign and trade.  On the premise that they the team would go to your original team and suggest a sign and trade?  After the fact? 

That makes not sense (like I said).  And don't forget that the celts would need to bring back equivalent salary (more or less).  So we'd up the money to smart just so we can bring back more money?

Like I said, I am not seeing a likely scenario unless a sign and trade at the core, not as a side effect of marcus getting another offer.

[dreamgreen]

Smart is the type of guy I love half the time and the other half I want to run him over with my SUV! He still has not realized he's not the first, second or third option on a good team and IMO that's what's hurting him the most. Come down the court and make others better and find your shots when they are there. Don't come down and think you're Curry and jack up 25' jumpers, that's just awful basketball period. People get to easily drawn in by hustle when you need great players that hustle. I wont be surprised to see him traded by the deadline. No way Danny ponies up big bucks for such a flawed player, specially with Brown and Tatum on the team who will be looking for money.

5 years $50m is my max!

[tenn_smoothie]

Unless Marcus comes at a complete bargain, I’m not resigning him at all.

He is not going to come at a bargain. Other teams GMs recognize his unique skill set and will pay him. He helps you win games.

I know.

What stat backs up Marcus helps you win games? First one that pops into my mind is Win Share where he was middle of the pack for Celtics last season. Maybe you do VORP where again he was middle of the pack on Celtics last season. Don't bother looking up so far this season he's off to a terrible start for advanced stats.

Actually what stat can you point to about Marcus leads to winning?

Metrics are great, but they should not be the be-all, end-all. The eye test from a real coach who knows the game is just as important. I don't want to become a slave to all these advanced stats, tho Danny and Stevens are in love with them.