Kyrie ranked 25; Hayward ranked 20

[Bucketgetter]

It's not some sort of anti-Celtics bias. That's just stupid talk and is entirely refuted by Hawyard going up in the rankings.

It's simple folks. Your ranking tends to drop when you only play on one half of the court.

Lowry put up more rebounds, assists, steals, a better shooting percentage and was far better than Irving on defense. Conley put up similar offensive statistics except for points (5ppg fewer) but is so far ahead of Irving on defense that he gets the nod and rightfully so. When you factor in that defense is half the game it's really hard to justify putting Irving ahead of either guy.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it's far more likely that Irving can improve on defense than Lowry/Conley will improve on offense. So we all hope next years' rankings reflect Irving actually trying to contribute something on the defensive end of the court.

Is that why James Harden is one of the top guys? Kyrie improved dramatically from 15/16 to 16/17, yet he was dropped 10 spots. There is no real reasonable explanation for it. Conley and Lowry didn't have breakout seasons or anything, and I doubt many league-wide would argue the case for either of those two over Kyrie.

I'm not saying it's an anti-Celtic bias (Smart was nearly ranked as highly as Melo, for some reason), but it's definitely a stupid ranking system.

You’re proving his point for him, that the list puts an emphasis on defense...

[crimson_stallion]

I agree with Roy that both should be inside the top 20, but not like way inside.

I realize the dissension is with Kyrie being at #25, but seeing Hayward at #20 while Butler and George come strolling in at #11 and #13, respectively, is a little annoying.

I guess the Cs have the all-underrated team (Horford is the definition of this)...so that is cool.

George and Butler are better than Hayward

This.

In fact that has got to be one of the only things this list actually got right.

Apparently they put Carmelo at something like #63, one position below Lonzo Ball.  I know not everybody is a fan of Melo, but that is beyond wrong - that's just plain disrespectful.  Carmelo is one of the most talented offensive players this league has ever seen, and is one season away from putting up 15 consecutive 20 PPG+ seasons, which is crazy 

And they put him below an overhyped PG who has never played an NBA game?  Joke.

[CelticSince83]

It's not some sort of anti-Celtics bias. That's just stupid talk and is entirely refuted by Hawyard going up in the rankings.

It's simple folks. Your ranking tends to drop when you only play on one half of the court.

Lowry put up more rebounds, assists, steals, a better shooting percentage and was far better than Irving on defense. Conley put up similar offensive statistics except for points (5ppg fewer) but is so far ahead of Irving on defense that he gets the nod and rightfully so. When you factor in that defense is half the game it's really hard to justify putting Irving ahead of either guy.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it's far more likely that Irving can improve on defense than Lowry/Conley will improve on offense. So we all hope next years' rankings reflect Irving actually trying to contribute something on the defensive end of the court.

Is that why James Harden is one of the top guys? Kyrie improved dramatically from 15/16 to 16/17, yet he was dropped 10 spots. There is no real reasonable explanation for it. Conley and Lowry didn't have breakout seasons or anything, and I doubt many league-wide would argue the case for either of those two over Kyrie.

I'm not saying it's an anti-Celtic bias (Smart was nearly ranked as highly as Melo, for some reason), but it's definitely a stupid ranking system.

In re not having breakout seasons: Conley actually did put up career numbers in nearly every statistical category. 

Also, Conley and Lowry were both ahead of Kyrie in RPM and simple rating.  It's really not that crazy.  There has to be some reason Toronto won 51 games and the on/off numbers suggest it wasn't because of DDR.   

[crimson_stallion]

It's not some sort of anti-Celtics bias. That's just stupid talk and is entirely refuted by Hawyard going up in the rankings.

It's simple folks. Your ranking tends to drop when you only play on one half of the court.

Lowry put up more rebounds, assists, steals, a better shooting percentage and was far better than Irving on defense. Conley put up similar offensive statistics except for points (5ppg fewer) but is so far ahead of Irving on defense that he gets the nod and rightfully so. When you factor in that defense is half the game it's really hard to justify putting Irving ahead of either guy.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it's far more likely that Irving can improve on defense than Lowry/Conley will improve on offense. So we all hope next years' rankings reflect Irving actually trying to contribute something on the defensive end of the court.

Is that why James Harden is one of the top guys? Kyrie improved dramatically from 15/16 to 16/17, yet he was dropped 10 spots. There is no real reasonable explanation for it. Conley and Lowry didn't have breakout seasons or anything, and I doubt many league-wide would argue the case for either of those two over Kyrie.

I'm not saying it's an anti-Celtic bias (Smart was nearly ranked as highly as Melo, for some reason), but it's definitely a stupid ranking system.

You’re proving his point for him, that the list puts an emphasis on defense...

Lonzo Ball being above Melo suggests otherwise.  From what I've seen Lonzo was a pretty woeful defender even at the college level.  Melo isn't a great defender because of lack of effort, but when he tries he's actually very good.  I don't think Melo will be a good defensive player no matter how hard he tries.

[crimson_stallion]

It's not some sort of anti-Celtics bias. That's just stupid talk and is entirely refuted by Hawyard going up in the rankings.

It's simple folks. Your ranking tends to drop when you only play on one half of the court.

Lowry put up more rebounds, assists, steals, a better shooting percentage and was far better than Irving on defense. Conley put up similar offensive statistics except for points (5ppg fewer) but is so far ahead of Irving on defense that he gets the nod and rightfully so. When you factor in that defense is half the game it's really hard to justify putting Irving ahead of either guy.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it's far more likely that Irving can improve on defense than Lowry/Conley will improve on offense. So we all hope next years' rankings reflect Irving actually trying to contribute something on the defensive end of the court.

Lowry also only plays in the regular season.  Just like his friend Mr Derozan, he has consistently proven that he folds like origami every time the playoffs come around or he's put under anything resembling pressure.

Versus Kyrie who has consistently proven that he has is immune to pressure and takes (and makes) big playoff shots like they're practice jumpers.   

[crimson_stallion]

It's not some sort of anti-Celtics bias. That's just stupid talk and is entirely refuted by Hawyard going up in the rankings.

It's simple folks. Your ranking tends to drop when you only play on one half of the court.

Lowry put up more rebounds, assists, steals, a better shooting percentage and was far better than Irving on defense. Conley put up similar offensive statistics except for points (5ppg fewer) but is so far ahead of Irving on defense that he gets the nod and rightfully so. When you factor in that defense is half the game it's really hard to justify putting Irving ahead of either guy.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it's far more likely that Irving can improve on defense than Lowry/Conley will improve on offense. So we all hope next years' rankings reflect Irving actually trying to contribute something on the defensive end of the court.

Is that why James Harden is one of the top guys? Kyrie improved dramatically from 15/16 to 16/17, yet he was dropped 10 spots. There is no real reasonable explanation for it. Conley and Lowry didn't have breakout seasons or anything, and I doubt many league-wide would argue the case for either of those two over Kyrie.

I'm not saying it's an anti-Celtic bias (Smart was nearly ranked as highly as Melo, for some reason), but it's definitely a stupid ranking system.

In re not having breakout seasons: Conley actually did put up career numbers in nearly every statistical category. 

Also, Conley and Lowry were both ahead of Kyrie in RPM and simple rating.  It's really not that crazy.  There has to be some reason Toronto won 51 games and the on/off numbers suggest it wasn't because of DDR.

51 games in the regular seasons, sure. 

Just like his good friend Mr Derozan, Lowry he has consistently proven that he folds like origami every time the playoffs come around or he's put under anything resembling pressure, which is why the Raptors have been getting slapped convincingly in every playoff run despite having two all-star calibre players and a pretty [dang] solid supporting cast.

Versus Kyrie who has consistently proven that he has is immune to pressure and takes (and makes) big playoff shots like they're practice jumpers, and has often looked like the best player on his team during the past couple of NBA finals runs despite the fact that he plays on the same team as Lebron James.

[jambr380]

I agree with Roy that both should be inside the top 20, but not like way inside.

I realize the dissension is with Kyrie being at #25, but seeing Hayward at #20 while Butler and George come strolling in at #11 and #13, respectively, is a little annoying.

I guess the Cs have the all-underrated team (Horford is the definition of this)...so that is cool.

George and Butler are better than Hayward

This.

In fact that has got to be one of the only things this list actually got right.

I get the feeling people have either not really watched Hayward play and/or are buying into some kind-of hype. Hayward is very unassuming and played for a lethargic Utah team last year with little to no coverage. Needless to say, I think we are very lucky to have signed him.

And on a list like this, the difference between 11/13 and 20 is monumental.

[Bucketgetter]

It's not some sort of anti-Celtics bias. That's just stupid talk and is entirely refuted by Hawyard going up in the rankings.

It's simple folks. Your ranking tends to drop when you only play on one half of the court.

Lowry put up more rebounds, assists, steals, a better shooting percentage and was far better than Irving on defense. Conley put up similar offensive statistics except for points (5ppg fewer) but is so far ahead of Irving on defense that he gets the nod and rightfully so. When you factor in that defense is half the game it's really hard to justify putting Irving ahead of either guy.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it's far more likely that Irving can improve on defense than Lowry/Conley will improve on offense. So we all hope next years' rankings reflect Irving actually trying to contribute something on the defensive end of the court.

Is that why James Harden is one of the top guys? Kyrie improved dramatically from 15/16 to 16/17, yet he was dropped 10 spots. There is no real reasonable explanation for it. Conley and Lowry didn't have breakout seasons or anything, and I doubt many league-wide would argue the case for either of those two over Kyrie.

I'm not saying it's an anti-Celtic bias (Smart was nearly ranked as highly as Melo, for some reason), but it's definitely a stupid ranking system.

You’re proving his point for him, that the list puts an emphasis on defense...

Lonzo Ball being above Melo suggests otherwise.  From what I've seen Lonzo was a pretty woeful defender even at the college level.  Melo isn't a great defender because of lack of effort, but when he tries he's actually very good.  I don't think Melo will be a good defensive player no matter how hard he tries.

Lol you’re arguing Melo should be rated higher based on the merit of his defense?? I don’t think you know what player we’re talking about..

[Beat LA]

If they more heavily weighted honoring one's contract and playing both sides of the ball (>50% of possessions), it would make a lot of sense.

Okay, this is nothing against you, or anything, but this is really bugging me - a basketball does not have sides.

That said, idk how anyone can put Kyle Lowry ahead of Irving.  Have they not seen him constantly crap the bed in the playoffs?  The guy is like the Tom Gordon of point guards.

This was my favorite part from the "article", though -

During the regular season, Irving had the highest effective field goal percentage on shots following seven or more dribbles among the players to take five such attempts per game.

And the award for arbitrary stat of the day goes to...

[Quetzalcoatl]

Getting Kyrie ranked 25th is the perfect thing to get CelticsBlog behind him.  I almost wish they had ranked him 30th.

[GratefulCs]

If they more heavily weighted honoring one's contract and playing both sides of the ball (>50% of possessions), it would make a lot of sense.

Okay, this is nothing against you, or anything, but this is really bugging me - a basketball does not have sides.

That said, idk how anyone can put Kyle Lowry ahead of Irving.  Have they not seen him constantly crap the bed in the playoffs?  The guy is like the Tom Gordon of point guards.

This was my favorite part from the "article", though -

During the regular season, Irving had the highest effective field goal percentage on shots following seven or more dribbles among the players to take five such attempts per game.

And the award for arbitrary stat of the day goes to...

1. it's just a saying. like putting "english" on the ball

2. i think that stat is good at showing he's effective when "ball hogging" and that he does it often

[crimson_stallion]

It's not some sort of anti-Celtics bias. That's just stupid talk and is entirely refuted by Hawyard going up in the rankings.

It's simple folks. Your ranking tends to drop when you only play on one half of the court.

Lowry put up more rebounds, assists, steals, a better shooting percentage and was far better than Irving on defense. Conley put up similar offensive statistics except for points (5ppg fewer) but is so far ahead of Irving on defense that he gets the nod and rightfully so. When you factor in that defense is half the game it's really hard to justify putting Irving ahead of either guy.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it's far more likely that Irving can improve on defense than Lowry/Conley will improve on offense. So we all hope next years' rankings reflect Irving actually trying to contribute something on the defensive end of the court.

Is that why James Harden is one of the top guys? Kyrie improved dramatically from 15/16 to 16/17, yet he was dropped 10 spots. There is no real reasonable explanation for it. Conley and Lowry didn't have breakout seasons or anything, and I doubt many league-wide would argue the case for either of those two over Kyrie.

I'm not saying it's an anti-Celtic bias (Smart was nearly ranked as highly as Melo, for some reason), but it's definitely a stupid ranking system.

You’re proving his point for him, that the list puts an emphasis on defense...

Lonzo Ball being above Melo suggests otherwise.  From what I've seen Lonzo was a pretty woeful defender even at the college level.  Melo isn't a great defender because of lack of effort, but when he tries he's actually very good.  I don't think Melo will be a good defensive player no matter how hard he tries.

Lol you’re arguing Melo should be rated higher based on the merit of his defense?? I don’t think you know what player we’re talking about..

No, I'm arguing Melo should be higher because he is an infinitely superior player.

he defence comment was added because any mention of Melo is always going to bring responses about how bad his defence - so before anybody jumped on that argument I wanted to make it clear from the get go that the defence of Lonzo Ball is not going to be any better.

[crimson_stallion]

I agree with Roy that both should be inside the top 20, but not like way inside.

I realize the dissension is with Kyrie being at #25, but seeing Hayward at #20 while Butler and George come strolling in at #11 and #13, respectively, is a little annoying.

I guess the Cs have the all-underrated team (Horford is the definition of this)...so that is cool.

George and Butler are better than Hayward

This.

In fact that has got to be one of the only things this list actually got right.

I get the feeling people have either not really watched Hayward play and/or are buying into some kind-of hype. Hayward is very unassuming and played for a lethargic Utah team last year with little to no coverage. Needless to say, I think we are very lucky to have signed him.

And on a list like this, the difference between 11/13 and 20 is monumental.

Why do you get this feeling?

I find it amusing that just because somebody has a different view to you about a player, your immediate response is to draw the conclusion that they haven't watched said player play.   

If I say Kevin Durant is better than Jimmy Butler, does this instantly mean I've never watched Butler play?  No, I'm saying it because IMHO Durant is simply a better player.

I'm saying Butler and George are better players than Hayward because IMO...they are.  End of story.  I'm not saying that Hayward is not a good player.  However IMO Hayward is not better then Butler and is not better then George, and I do not consider him to be atop 20 player in this league - I do not believe he is even top 5 at his position, let alone top 20 in the entire league.

Top 10 at his position?  Definitely.  I'd probably put him somewhere around #7 - #9 after Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Giannis, Butler, George and possibly Klay Thompson (AFAIK he'd be a SF on most teams, so I consider him in that group).   It's also pretty tough for me to put him above Carmelo to be completely honest - I'd say the two are equal at best given that Hayward is a better defender, but Melo is better at pretty much everything else. 

[Bucketgetter]

It's not some sort of anti-Celtics bias. That's just stupid talk and is entirely refuted by Hawyard going up in the rankings.

It's simple folks. Your ranking tends to drop when you only play on one half of the court.

Lowry put up more rebounds, assists, steals, a better shooting percentage and was far better than Irving on defense. Conley put up similar offensive statistics except for points (5ppg fewer) but is so far ahead of Irving on defense that he gets the nod and rightfully so. When you factor in that defense is half the game it's really hard to justify putting Irving ahead of either guy.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it's far more likely that Irving can improve on defense than Lowry/Conley will improve on offense. So we all hope next years' rankings reflect Irving actually trying to contribute something on the defensive end of the court.

Is that why James Harden is one of the top guys? Kyrie improved dramatically from 15/16 to 16/17, yet he was dropped 10 spots. There is no real reasonable explanation for it. Conley and Lowry didn't have breakout seasons or anything, and I doubt many league-wide would argue the case for either of those two over Kyrie.

I'm not saying it's an anti-Celtic bias (Smart was nearly ranked as highly as Melo, for some reason), but it's definitely a stupid ranking system.

You’re proving his point for him, that the list puts an emphasis on defense...

Lonzo Ball being above Melo suggests otherwise.  From what I've seen Lonzo was a pretty woeful defender even at the college level.  Melo isn't a great defender because of lack of effort, but when he tries he's actually very good.  I don't think Melo will be a good defensive player no matter how hard he tries.

Lol you’re arguing Melo should be rated higher based on the merit of his defense?? I don’t think you know what player we’re talking about..

No, I'm arguing Melo should be higher because he is an infinitely superior player.

he defence comment was added because any mention of Melo is always going to bring responses about how bad his defence - so before anybody jumped on that argument I wanted to make it clear from the get go that the defence of Lonzo Ball is not going to be any better.

Lonzo Ball has nothing to do with that argument. We’re talking about how much the list values defense, and bringing up a guy who hasn’t played a single NBA game isn’t going to help your argument. We don’t know if he will be good at defense, or offense for that matter. Whoever wrote the list thinks he will and believes the hype with Ball.

The list clearly puts a heavy emphasis on defense. Ranking Melo and Smart back to back, having Kyrie below Lowry and Conley shows that. Those guys have actually shown what they can do and the writer chose to rank them where they are, instead of predicting how Lonzo will do.

[crimson_stallion]

It's not some sort of anti-Celtics bias. That's just stupid talk and is entirely refuted by Hawyard going up in the rankings.

It's simple folks. Your ranking tends to drop when you only play on one half of the court.

Lowry put up more rebounds, assists, steals, a better shooting percentage and was far better than Irving on defense. Conley put up similar offensive statistics except for points (5ppg fewer) but is so far ahead of Irving on defense that he gets the nod and rightfully so. When you factor in that defense is half the game it's really hard to justify putting Irving ahead of either guy.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it's far more likely that Irving can improve on defense than Lowry/Conley will improve on offense. So we all hope next years' rankings reflect Irving actually trying to contribute something on the defensive end of the court.

Is that why James Harden is one of the top guys? Kyrie improved dramatically from 15/16 to 16/17, yet he was dropped 10 spots. There is no real reasonable explanation for it. Conley and Lowry didn't have breakout seasons or anything, and I doubt many league-wide would argue the case for either of those two over Kyrie.

I'm not saying it's an anti-Celtic bias (Smart was nearly ranked as highly as Melo, for some reason), but it's definitely a stupid ranking system.

You’re proving his point for him, that the list puts an emphasis on defense...

Lonzo Ball being above Melo suggests otherwise.  From what I've seen Lonzo was a pretty woeful defender even at the college level.  Melo isn't a great defender because of lack of effort, but when he tries he's actually very good.  I don't think Melo will be a good defensive player no matter how hard he tries.

Lol you’re arguing Melo should be rated higher based on the merit of his defense?? I don’t think you know what player we’re talking about..

No, I'm arguing Melo should be higher because he is an infinitely superior player.

he defence comment was added because any mention of Melo is always going to bring responses about how bad his defence - so before anybody jumped on that argument I wanted to make it clear from the get go that the defence of Lonzo Ball is not going to be any better.

Lonzo Ball has nothing to do with that argument. We’re talking about how much the list values defense, and bringing up a guy who hasn’t played a single NBA game isn’t going to help your argument. We don’t know if he will be good at defense, or offense for that matter. Whoever wrote the list thinks he will and believes the hype with Ball.

The list clearly puts a heavy emphasis on defense. Ranking Melo and Smart back to back, having Kyrie below Lowry and Conley shows that. Those guys have actually shown what they can do and the writer chose to rank them where they are, instead of predicting how Lonzo will do.

Umm...

The list has Lonzo Ball ranked one position above Carmelo Anthony...

Even those who are hyped about Ball are not hyped about him for his defence.  So trying to argue the list is ranking guys based on defence makes no sense if they are ranking Ball above Melo. 

My assumption is that they are raking guys based on what they perceived to be a player's impact on winning.  I'm assuming that they are labelling guys like Melo and Kyrie as ball hogging chuckers who are detrimental to their team success, and for this reason are ranking them lower in the list. 

They most likely perceive guys like Conley, Lowry and Hayward as team oriented players and for that reason place them higher on the list. 

Likewise they likely look at Smart as a hustle guy and impact player who impacts on team wins, and hence place him fairly high on the list for that reason.

With Ball being most known for his passing and 'making his teams better' this is probably also why they have put him above Melo.

I don't believe they are making the list with defence as a main preference, and he's not nearly as good a scorer as Kyrie, nor is he known for his defensive prowess.  However he rebounds, he's a skilled passer, is unselfish with the ball, etc - likely why they put him only one spot below Kyrie despite the fact that Irving is clearly a far superior scorer. 

My assumption is that they are ranking players based on overall team impact rather than sheer talent.