C's in win-now mode. Dead-end in sight?

[LilRip]

As good as Kyrie is right now, he's not yet even in his prime. Let that sink in please. Kyrie is still going to improve! This trade extends our window, IMO because IT is in his athletic prime now.

[mctyson]

Trading the Brooklyn pick means the Celtics are entering win-now mode. Problem is, the Warriors may very well be the best team in NBA history. If we can't move the needle past them it doesn't mean anything. The way I see it, it's as if we were in the early 90s and we were trying to compete against the Bulls. That's how good I believe this Warriors team is.

The C's have been a championship driven organization since (at least) the mid/late 50s. They have won a record number of 17 championships. Losing to the Warriors in the Finals is not good enough. All that matters to the C's is banner 18.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should have stopped trying to win. After all, we were a top 2 team in the East last year. My point is, we shouldn't have entered win-now mode. Kyrie-Hayward-Horford aren't good enough to beat KD-Steph-Klay-Green. Not to mention, Brown and Tatum are still way too young. We jumped the gun on the Kyrie trade. He isn't gonna help us beat the Warriors. In fact, nobody was gonna help us beat the Warriors (except maybe for LeBron/Kawhi/AD but they were never available anyway).

But that is exactly why they traded for Kyrie.  Would you rather they re-sign IT for 4 years?

[droopdog7]

Can we stop putting so much weight on next years brooklyn pick.  We just had two straight #3 picks.  If one of those guys isn't going to be a star (and I'm not saying they aren't) then what makes people think next years unknown Brooklyn pick is going to be that star.  We don't even know what place they're going to end up in or how good those high school guys will be.

Man, it is only going to get worse, too. If the BKN pick lands at, say, #4, and a player taken at or after #4 becomes a bigger star than Kyrie, then we are all going to hear about what a mistake Danny made...for years (see: Giannis).

People will totally dismiss the players taken in that range that are average (or busts) that we very well could have taken instead. They will also dismiss the fact that Kyrie, while still young himself, is ready to compete NOW, rather than waiting several years for said star to develop.

The only way this doesn't become a miss for Danny is if we a win a championship with Kyrie as the main guy. Any other scenario will lead to people [continuing to] call for his head...even though he is the one that orchestrated the brilliant BKN trade that brought back James Young (bleh), Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Kyrie Irving, and the LAL/Sac pick for 1 year of PP and 1 1/2 yrs of KG.

If the Nets pick turns out better than Kyrie, Danny *should* be criticized.

Um, no he shouldn't.  If the nets end up with a record in the 5-7 range then his gamble paid off regardless of the outcome.  So if say, the nets get the top pick anyway or if the seventh pick in the draft becomes a superstar you can't blame Danny for that. 

[droopdog7]

And as for the premise of the thread, I mean, clearly people around here have no idea what they're talking about.  IF Danny was trying to build only through the draft, then there would be no Al, no Hayward, and on top of that, no IT after this year and definitely no kyrie.

So we be looking at building a team with brown, Tatum, next years brooklyn pick and the lakers pick.  Are people serious?!?  I mean, are people really serious?  That's a complete and utter crapshoot.

Glad Danny knows what he's doing.  You take known quantities and when you can get a 25 year star with the potential to become a superstar, of course you take it. 

As the for the warriors, who the heck knows.  On paper they look like a super team but you just can't bank too far down the line what will happen.  Give me a punchers chance and I'll take it.  Do people want to wait around to try to beat them when they're down or want to go at the behemoth right now?  And no, it doesn't mean nothing unless you win a title.  That's not guaranteed anyway.  All you can do is put the team in position and see what happens.

[gouki88]

I voted no, simply because I think around year 4 will be when this team is at its best. It can win in the meantime, I just view it as less likely. However, we definitely are geared to be serious players.

I recently heard that we have the third youngest roster in the entire league! That's insane.

[green_bballers13]

Trading the Brooklyn pick means the Celtics are entering win-now mode. Problem is, the Warriors may very well be the best team in NBA history. If we can't move the needle past them it doesn't mean anything. The way I see it, it's as if we were in the early 90s and we were trying to compete against the Bulls. That's how good I believe this Warriors team is.

The C's have been a championship driven organization since (at least) the mid/late 50s. They have won a record number of 17 championships. Losing to the Warriors in the Finals is not good enough. All that matters to the C's is banner 18.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should have stopped trying to win. After all, we were a top 2 team in the East last year. My point is, we shouldn't have entered win-now mode. Kyrie-Hayward-Horford aren't good enough to beat KD-Steph-Klay-Green. Not to mention, Brown and Tatum are still way too young. We jumped the gun on the Kyrie trade. He isn't gonna help us beat the Warriors. In fact, nobody was gonna help us beat the Warriors (except maybe for LeBron/Kawhi/AD but they were never available anyway).

He already beat the Warriors in the NBA finals. If he can't do it, what available player can help us beat them? Waiting for the future is great, but that's not Danny Ainge's job. His job is to put the Celtics in the best position to win in 2017 and beyond. No one, including Danny, is guaranteed a tomorrow.

Playing fantasy basketball for 2020 or beyond is different than being responsible for a payroll of ~$100 million. I too would like to continue picking in the top 5 into perpetuity, but the Celtics were due for a consolidating move by leveraging one of their many valuable assets. I would love to see a 2018 LAL top 5 pick get traded for another valuable player.

Wait until Danny starts trading young, talented players.... then you'll know we're in win-now mode.

[Roy H.]

Can we stop putting so much weight on next years brooklyn pick.  We just had two straight #3 picks.  If one of those guys isn't going to be a star (and I'm not saying they aren't) then what makes people think next years unknown Brooklyn pick is going to be that star.  We don't even know what place they're going to end up in or how good those high school guys will be.

Man, it is only going to get worse, too. If the BKN pick lands at, say, #4, and a player taken at or after #4 becomes a bigger star than Kyrie, then we are all going to hear about what a mistake Danny made...for years (see: Giannis).

People will totally dismiss the players taken in that range that are average (or busts) that we very well could have taken instead. They will also dismiss the fact that Kyrie, while still young himself, is ready to compete NOW, rather than waiting several years for said star to develop.

The only way this doesn't become a miss for Danny is if we a win a championship with Kyrie as the main guy. Any other scenario will lead to people [continuing to] call for his head...even though he is the one that orchestrated the brilliant BKN trade that brought back James Young (bleh), Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Kyrie Irving, and the LAL/Sac pick for 1 year of PP and 1 1/2 yrs of KG.

If the Nets pick turns out better than Kyrie, Danny *should* be criticized.

Um, no he shouldn't.  If the nets end up with a record in the 5-7 range then his gamble paid off regardless of the outcome.  So if say, the nets get the top pick anyway or if the seventh pick in the draft becomes a superstar you can't blame Danny for that.

Sorry, but no. If Danny trades an asset that turns into a superior player, then he should be blamed for incorrectly valuing that asset.

If the trade is IT + Crowder + MVP candidate for Kyrie, how can you call that a success?

[DooVoo]

Can we stop putting so much weight on next years brooklyn pick.  We just had two straight #3 picks.  If one of those guys isn't going to be a star (and I'm not saying they aren't) then what makes people think next years unknown Brooklyn pick is going to be that star.  We don't even know what place they're going to end up in or how good those high school guys will be.

Man, it is only going to get worse, too. If the BKN pick lands at, say, #4, and a player taken at or after #4 becomes a bigger star than Kyrie, then we are all going to hear about what a mistake Danny made...for years (see: Giannis).

People will totally dismiss the players taken in that range that are average (or busts) that we very well could have taken instead. They will also dismiss the fact that Kyrie, while still young himself, is ready to compete NOW, rather than waiting several years for said star to develop.

The only way this doesn't become a miss for Danny is if we a win a championship with Kyrie as the main guy. Any other scenario will lead to people [continuing to] call for his head...even though he is the one that orchestrated the brilliant BKN trade that brought back James Young (bleh), Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Kyrie Irving, and the LAL/Sac pick for 1 year of PP and 1 1/2 yrs of KG.

If the Nets pick turns out better than Kyrie, Danny *should* be criticized.

Um, no he shouldn't.  If the nets end up with a record in the 5-7 range then his gamble paid off regardless of the outcome.  So if say, the nets get the top pick anyway or if the seventh pick in the draft becomes a superstar you can't blame Danny for that.

Sorry, but no. If Danny trades an asset that turns into a superior player, then he should be blamed for incorrectly valuing that asset.

If the trade is IT + Crowder + MVP candidate for Kyrie, how can you call that a success?

It's a risk you take in the draft. When Kyrie was taken #1 the next great player taken was 10 picks later at #11 with Klay Thompson.

If the trade turns out to be 1 year of a hobbled IT, Crowder whose play has been regressing, and the likes of Mohamed Bamba or Wendell Carter who are major projects for an actual MVP candidate in Irving people will say Ainge committed highway robbery. Trades bring risk but great reward.

[GreenEnvy]

Can we stop putting so much weight on next years brooklyn pick.  We just had two straight #3 picks.  If one of those guys isn't going to be a star (and I'm not saying they aren't) then what makes people think next years unknown Brooklyn pick is going to be that star.  We don't even know what place they're going to end up in or how good those high school guys will be.

Man, it is only going to get worse, too. If the BKN pick lands at, say, #4, and a player taken at or after #4 becomes a bigger star than Kyrie, then we are all going to hear about what a mistake Danny made...for years (see: Giannis).

People will totally dismiss the players taken in that range that are average (or busts) that we very well could have taken instead. They will also dismiss the fact that Kyrie, while still young himself, is ready to compete NOW, rather than waiting several years for said star to develop.

The only way this doesn't become a miss for Danny is if we a win a championship with Kyrie as the main guy. Any other scenario will lead to people [continuing to] call for his head...even though he is the one that orchestrated the brilliant BKN trade that brought back James Young (bleh), Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Kyrie Irving, and the LAL/Sac pick for 1 year of PP and 1 1/2 yrs of KG.

When you give up any draft pick, you are subject to criticism. When you trade a potential top pick, from the same team that you just got THE top pick from, that you TRADED, you open yourself up to even more skepticism.

I hate the hedge that "yeah, maybe the pick can potentially be better than Kyrie, but Kyrie is ready to compete now!" argument, because those are the same people saying IT was too old. Guess what... Isaiah is ready to compete the next 4 years. And when his contract is up, we have that pick coming off his rookie deal.

You can't look at the first trade and not take the latest one for what it is. Danny fleeced Brooklyn. We get that, but let's not forget everything went wrong in Brooklyn that could have. Lopez got injured, Pierce and KG aged rapidly away from Doc, Deron lost his talent completely, and Joe Johnson went along for the ride. Things could have went the other way and the picks couldn't have been as great as they were. In fact, I doubt few people saw a 17, 3, 1 and lottery pick. Many people projected at least two 20+ picks out of the 3, and maybe no need for a swap. But Ainge stole IT from the Suns. He got great value for Rondo. We rebuilt faster than anyone imagined. They crumbled faster than anyone anticipated.

IT for his salary this year, even if he misses half of it, is good value for a guy that wants off the team that's the same caliber player. Yeah he's older, but younger than LeBron, so if they can keep him and use Bird Rights, it's a win-win for a conference rival. Now add in Jae. Then Zizic who is now their best prospect. Then the pick. What a haul for Kyrie. If IT is the player we know and love, we are doomed come ECF-time.

Danny may know something we don't. Maybe Brad seems something untapped in Kyrie. Maybe IT's hip is worse than we know.  But what if we do know enough? Then the trade is a terrible one. We got a couple more prime years of IT, maybe. But at the expense of a bargain contract in Jae, a potential center in Zizic, and who knows what in the heralded Nets pick (that we all KNOW could have gotten us another star on its own). That's a hefty price for a taller IT4. And you can't lean on the original Brooklyn trade to make this one look better.

[Bucketgetter]

Can we stop putting so much weight on next years brooklyn pick.  We just had two straight #3 picks.  If one of those guys isn't going to be a star (and I'm not saying they aren't) then what makes people think next years unknown Brooklyn pick is going to be that star.  We don't even know what place they're going to end up in or how good those high school guys will be.

Man, it is only going to get worse, too. If the BKN pick lands at, say, #4, and a player taken at or after #4 becomes a bigger star than Kyrie, then we are all going to hear about what a mistake Danny made...for years (see: Giannis).

People will totally dismiss the players taken in that range that are average (or busts) that we very well could have taken instead. They will also dismiss the fact that Kyrie, while still young himself, is ready to compete NOW, rather than waiting several years for said star to develop.

The only way this doesn't become a miss for Danny is if we a win a championship with Kyrie as the main guy. Any other scenario will lead to people [continuing to] call for his head...even though he is the one that orchestrated the brilliant BKN trade that brought back James Young (bleh), Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Kyrie Irving, and the LAL/Sac pick for 1 year of PP and 1 1/2 yrs of KG.

If the Nets pick turns out better than Kyrie, Danny *should* be criticized.

Um, no he shouldn't.  If the nets end up with a record in the 5-7 range then his gamble paid off regardless of the outcome.  So if say, the nets get the top pick anyway or if the seventh pick in the draft becomes a superstar you can't blame Danny for that.

Sorry, but no. If Danny trades an asset that turns into a superior player, then he should be blamed for incorrectly valuing that asset.

If the trade is IT + Crowder + MVP candidate for Kyrie, how can you call that a success?

It's a risk you take in the draft. When Kyrie was taken #1 the next great player taken was 10 picks later at #11 with Klay Thompson.

If the trade turns out to be 1 year of a hobbled IT, Crowder whose play has been regressing, and the likes of Mohamed Bamba or Wendell Carter who are major projects for an actual MVP candidate in Irving people will say Ainge committed highway robbery. Trades bring risk but great reward.

But that’s looking at it in the most positive way from a celtics point of view. If you look at it from the most positive way from a cavs point of view, they traded a selfish, one dimensional all star for a slightly worse, smaller version of him, an elite 3 and D player on a great contract, a solid C prospect, and an unprotected pick in a great draft from one of the worst teams in the NBA.

If I try to look at it with a non biased point of view, we made a noticeable upgrade at point guard, especially in age and health, and had to give up a solid role player, a decent C prospect, and a very valuable pick. I think we overpaid, but we got the best player in the deal. This deal has the potential to either be amazing for us or absolutely terrible.

[chambers]

Can we stop putting so much weight on next years brooklyn pick.  We just had two straight #3 picks.  If one of those guys isn't going to be a star (and I'm not saying they aren't) then what makes people think next years unknown Brooklyn pick is going to be that star.  We don't even know what place they're going to end up in or how good those high school guys will be.

Man, it is only going to get worse, too. If the BKN pick lands at, say, #4, and a player taken at or after #4 becomes a bigger star than Kyrie, then we are all going to hear about what a mistake Danny made...for years (see: Giannis).

People will totally dismiss the players taken in that range that are average (or busts) that we very well could have taken instead. They will also dismiss the fact that Kyrie, while still young himself, is ready to compete NOW, rather than waiting several years for said star to develop.

The only way this doesn't become a miss for Danny is if we a win a championship with Kyrie as the main guy. Any other scenario will lead to people [continuing to] call for his head...even though he is the one that orchestrated the brilliant BKN trade that brought back James Young (bleh), Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Kyrie Irving, and the LAL/Sac pick for 1 year of PP and 1 1/2 yrs of KG.

If the Nets pick turns out better than Kyrie, Danny *should* be criticized.

Um, no he shouldn't.  If the nets end up with a record in the 5-7 range then his gamble paid off regardless of the outcome.  So if say, the nets get the top pick anyway or if the seventh pick in the draft becomes a superstar you can't blame Danny for that.

Sorry, but no. If Danny trades an asset that turns into a superior player, then he should be blamed for incorrectly valuing that asset.

If the trade is IT + Crowder + MVP candidate for Kyrie, how can you call that a success?

Problem with this logic us that unless there are a #1 and #2 consensus picks and the Nets pick ends up being #1 or #2 then you can't really judge because we'd never know who Ainge would have taken with that pick.

Seems unfair unless Nets go #1 and that pick is an NBA superstar.
Also, at age 25 it would be fair to assume Kyrie is going to improve in a Brad Stevens offense/learning situation considering his previous NBA coaches.

If we can criticize Ainge for trading away a top 3 NBA player for Irving then at what point can we praise/celebrate him for making the trade?

[HomerSapien]

Can we stop putting so much weight on next years brooklyn pick.  We just had two straight #3 picks.  If one of those guys isn't going to be a star (and I'm not saying they aren't) then what makes people think next years unknown Brooklyn pick is going to be that star.  We don't even know what place they're going to end up in or how good those high school guys will be.

Man, it is only going to get worse, too. If the BKN pick lands at, say, #4, and a player taken at or after #4 becomes a bigger star than Kyrie, then we are all going to hear about what a mistake Danny made...for years (see: Giannis).

People will totally dismiss the players taken in that range that are average (or busts) that we very well could have taken instead. They will also dismiss the fact that Kyrie, while still young himself, is ready to compete NOW, rather than waiting several years for said star to develop.

The only way this doesn't become a miss for Danny is if we a win a championship with Kyrie as the main guy. Any other scenario will lead to people [continuing to] call for his head...even though he is the one that orchestrated the brilliant BKN trade that brought back James Young (bleh), Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Kyrie Irving, and the LAL/Sac pick for 1 year of PP and 1 1/2 yrs of KG.

If the Nets pick turns out better than Kyrie, Danny *should* be criticized.

Um, no he shouldn't.  If the nets end up with a record in the 5-7 range then his gamble paid off regardless of the outcome.  So if say, the nets get the top pick anyway or if the seventh pick in the draft becomes a superstar you can't blame Danny for that.

Sorry, but no. If Danny trades an asset that turns into a superior player, then he should be blamed for incorrectly valuing that asset.

If the trade is IT + Crowder + MVP candidate for Kyrie, how can you call that a success?

Problem with this logic us that unless there are a #1 and #2 consensus picks and the Nets pick ends up being #1 or #2 then you can't really judge because we'd never know who Ainge would have taken with that pick.

Seems unfair unless Nets go #1 and that pick is an NBA superstar.
Also, at age 25 it would be fair to assume Kyrie is going to improve in a Brad Stevens offense/learning situation considering his previous NBA coaches.

If we can criticize Ainge for trading away a top 3 NBA player for Irving then at what point can we praise/celebrate him for making the trade?

When Kyrie plays like an MVP candidate, or when the Celtics win the championship.  That's roughly equivalent to the price the C's paid for him, so that seems like the right threshold for declaring the trade a full on success.

[chambers]

Can we stop putting so much weight on next years brooklyn pick.  We just had two straight #3 picks.  If one of those guys isn't going to be a star (and I'm not saying they aren't) then what makes people think next years unknown Brooklyn pick is going to be that star.  We don't even know what place they're going to end up in or how good those high school guys will be.

Man, it is only going to get worse, too. If the BKN pick lands at, say, #4, and a player taken at or after #4 becomes a bigger star than Kyrie, then we are all going to hear about what a mistake Danny made...for years (see: Giannis).

People will totally dismiss the players taken in that range that are average (or busts) that we very well could have taken instead. They will also dismiss the fact that Kyrie, while still young himself, is ready to compete NOW, rather than waiting several years for said star to develop.

The only way this doesn't become a miss for Danny is if we a win a championship with Kyrie as the main guy. Any other scenario will lead to people [continuing to] call for his head...even though he is the one that orchestrated the brilliant BKN trade that brought back James Young (bleh), Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Kyrie Irving, and the LAL/Sac pick for 1 year of PP and 1 1/2 yrs of KG.

If the Nets pick turns out better than Kyrie, Danny *should* be criticized.

Um, no he shouldn't.  If the nets end up with a record in the 5-7 range then his gamble paid off regardless of the outcome.  So if say, the nets get the top pick anyway or if the seventh pick in the draft becomes a superstar you can't blame Danny for that.

Sorry, but no. If Danny trades an asset that turns into a superior player, then he should be blamed for incorrectly valuing that asset.

If the trade is IT + Crowder + MVP candidate for Kyrie, how can you call that a success?

Problem with this logic us that unless there are a #1 and #2 consensus picks and the Nets pick ends up being #1 or #2 then you can't really judge because we'd never know who Ainge would have taken with that pick.

Seems unfair unless Nets go #1 and that pick is an NBA superstar.
Also, at age 25 it would be fair to assume Kyrie is going to improve in a Brad Stevens offense/learning situation considering his previous NBA coaches.

If we can criticize Ainge for trading away a top 3 NBA player for Irving then at what point can we praise/celebrate him for making the trade?

When Kyrie plays like an MVP candidate, or when the Celtics win the championship.  That's roughly equivalent to the price the C's paid for him, so that seems like the right threshold for declaring the trade a full on success.

So if the pick falls at #5 and we traded #5, an expiring 29 year old IT and Crowder for Irving is that still the case? What championship were we winning with IT on 30 million, a #5 Brooklyn pick and Jae Crowder when the Warriors are still steamrolling?

My point is that judging Ainge on what the pick might become isn't fair when you dont know who he would have taken unless its a Tim Duncan/Lebron caliber consensus #1 /#2.

[chambers]

And no, we arent in win now mode.
We are 2-3 years away until Jaylen and Tatum develop.
We are in win now mode when we trade those 2 for someone like Anthony Davis.

[TheSundanceKid]

I don't think we have become more of a win-now team since the trade, if anything we have remained as competitive in the now and improved the length of our window.

Being realistic with cap management, there were two 'eras' before the trade:

- IT, Hayward, Horford

- Brown, Tatum, Nets 18, Lakers/Kings pick

Perhaps Hayward bridges the gap a little as well. But looking at when the young guys come off their rookie contracts, that's a lot of money. Supporting 4 of them would be difficult if we were also looking to keep Hayward around and it would definitely put us in the luxury tax for a long time.

Post trade we now have:

- Irving, Hayward, Horford

- Brown, Tatum, Lakers/Kings pick

And we have Irving and Hayward who can bridge the gap. The same problem of cap management will exist but at that point it would be much more of a 'win now' proposition with Irving and Hayward in their primes, making it a more attractive proposition for ownership.

What we do give up is the potential for Brown, Tatum, Nets 18, Lakers/Kings pick to be together in 10 years time, after Hayward and Irving move on. There's a lot of uncertainty in that, namely that you would have 4 hopefully elite guys who have spent their entire career sharing the spotlight with others and may well want to succeed in their own light..