If you would have told me Kyrie would be the starting pg for next season....

[Granath]

Some of you guys are going to be disappointed by Kyrie's "leadership" and defense, along with his ability and willingness to pass. I'm guessing that those praising him for such things haven't followed Kyrie's career closely.

It's useless Roy. Some people are too busy flogging their knobs over "we got Irving, we got Irving" without ever knowing what Irving is - and isn't. "He can score" and "he hit a big shot once" are nice attributes to have but that doesn't make him Rick Barry or Big Shot Rob. There's nothing you can say or any fact that you can raise that puts a damper on their enthusiasm.

Mention multiple stupid statements by Irving and they reply "that ONE was a joke" without addressing any others. Mention his lack of assist and they'll blame Lebron. Counter Irving's scoring in the finals with the fact that Curry smoked him (assists and rebounds count) and it's dismissed. Talk about his lack of leadership and it's blamed on Lebron. Mention his extreme difficulties winning even a game without Lebron and it's ignored. Every deficiency is excused or it's assumed that Brad can somehow magically make them all go away.

I agree with you - he can score, he has a great handle and is a legit All Star. But he has major flaws in his game and those also need to be recognized.

[green_bballers13]

^?Random examples:

1. He demanded a trade from a championship team to get more of the spotlight;

2. He refused to talk with teammates for two days in the playoffs;

3. He "led" his team to a 4-23 record without Lebron;

4. He and Dion Waiters clashed, to the point of a rumored fight. Kyrie allegedly froze Waiters out of the offense;

5. He had "communication issues" with Davis Blatt;

6. He threatened not to re-sign in Cleveland unless they fired Mike Brown;

7. He pouts on the court, which has been noted repeatedly in the media. He skipped Fan Appreciation Night;

Just go back and read media from 2014, before Lebron got there. Kyrie was being savaged by media and other GMs for his immaturity. Byron Scott noted he "changed" (in a negative way) after he made his first All-Star game.

Effectively, you're criticizing his moves when he was 22. God I'm thrilled that no one here knows what I was doing when I was 22.

[seancally]

^?Random examples:

1. He demanded a trade from a championship team to get more of the spotlight;

2. He refused to talk with teammates for two days in the playoffs;

3. He "led" his team to a 4-23 record without Lebron;

4. He and Dion Waiters clashed, to the point of a rumored fight. Kyrie allegedly froze Waiters out of the offense;

5. He had "communication issues" with Davis Blatt;

6. He threatened not to re-sign in Cleveland unless they fired Mike Brown;

7. He pouts on the court, which has been noted repeatedly in the media. He skipped Fan Appreciation Night;

Just go back and read media from 2014, before Lebron got there. Kyrie was being savaged by media and other GMs for his immaturity. Byron Scott noted he "changed" (in a negative way) after he made his first All-Star game.

You could make similar accusations about Kobe Bryant - clashed with teammates, demanded trade, is generally considered an a$$hole, failed to carry his team when he wasn't surrounded by talent, only cared about himself. But he was also one of the greatest shooting guards of all time and won many huge games when he had a good team around him. He hit game winners and terrified opponents. Everyone respected him.

Ask around the league and you'll find NBA players universally respect Irving's game. KD himself said so on a Simmons podcast recently. Any talk on character is, frankly, irrelevant when you're talking about a gold medalist, NBA champion and the guy who hit the shot over MVP Steph Curry to sink a team that won 73 games. I want that guy on my team.

There's also some revisionist history around IT. His offensive performance last season was historic. His defensive performance was remarkably bad. He repeatedly made known he expects a max contract - typically players will at least say, "Yeah, I'll think about that when the time comes." He undermined Stevens' roster choices at times in the media. Love his game - but CBS and the Celtics empowered him to get to that point. He never gets there in most other systems. If we can make a 5'8" PG who can't defend and was drafted last into an All-NBA guy, surely we can get Kyrie to be an average defender.

[green_bballers13]

Some of you guys are going to be disappointed by Kyrie's "leadership" and defense, along with his ability and willingness to pass. I'm guessing that those praising him for such things haven't followed Kyrie's career closely.

It's useless Roy. Some people are too busy flogging their knobs over "we got Irving, we got Irving" without ever knowing what Irving is - and isn't. "He can score" and "he hit a big shot once" are nice attributes to have but that doesn't make him Rick Barry or Big Shot Rob. There's nothing you can say or any fact that you can raise that puts a damper on their enthusiasm.

Mention multiple stupid statements by Irving and they reply "that ONE was a joke" without addressing any others. Mention his lack of assist and they'll blame Lebron. Counter Irving's scoring in the finals with the fact that Curry smoked him (assists and rebounds count) and it's dismissed. Talk about his lack of leadership and it's blamed on Lebron. Mention his extreme difficulties winning even a game without Lebron and it's ignored. Every deficiency is excused or it's assumed that Brad can somehow magically make them all go away.

I agree with you - he can score, he has a great handle and is a legit All Star. But he has major flaws in his game and those also need to be recognized.

Forgive me if I'm being thick. I've read through this thread and can't decipher what are his major flaws. I see anectodes about "Kyrie making this person mad" or "not getting along with him", etc, etc.

1) Is he a bad passer? If so, is there anyway for him to improve...
2) Is he a bad defender? ditto
3) Is he a bad leader? ditto

I don't see any reasons why he can't come in and be the face of the franchise, while getting support from Horford and Hayward. I'm optimistic that Stevens wanted Kyrie before this trade was made, and already has begun to formulate how he will be used.

[seancally]

Some of you guys are going to be disappointed by Kyrie's "leadership" and defense, along with his ability and willingness to pass. I'm guessing that those praising him for such things haven't followed Kyrie's career closely.

It's useless Roy. Some people are too busy flogging their knobs over "we got Irving, we got Irving" without ever knowing what Irving is - and isn't. "He can score" and "he hit a big shot once" are nice attributes to have but that doesn't make him Rick Barry or Big Shot Rob. There's nothing you can say or any fact that you can raise that puts a damper on their enthusiasm.

Mention multiple stupid statements by Irving and they reply "that ONE was a joke" without addressing any others. Mention his lack of assist and they'll blame Lebron. Counter Irving's scoring in the finals with the fact that Curry smoked him (assists and rebounds count) and it's dismissed. Talk about his lack of leadership and it's blamed on Lebron. Mention his extreme difficulties winning even a game without Lebron and it's ignored. Every deficiency is excused or it's assumed that Brad can somehow magically make them all go away.

I agree with you - he can score, he has a great handle and is a legit All Star. But he has major flaws in his game and those also need to be recognized.

Forgive me if I'm being thick. I've read through this thread and can't decipher what are his major flaws. I see anectodes about "Kyrie making this person mad" or "not getting along with him", etc, etc.

1) Is he a bad passer? If so, is there anyway for him to improve...
2) Is he a bad defender? ditto
3) Is he a bad leader? ditto

I don't see any reasons why he can't come in and be the face of the franchise, while getting support from Horford and Hayward. I'm optimistic that Stevens wanted Kyrie before this trade was made, and already has begun to formulate how he will be used.

Agreed - bottom line, I trust Celtics mgmt but even more than that I trust Brad Stevens. I don't think Ainge and co. would unilaterally make this big of a trade without Stevens' approval. If Stevens is in, I'm in.

[Roy H.]

^?Random examples:

1. He demanded a trade from a championship team to get more of the spotlight;

2. He refused to talk with teammates for two days in the playoffs;

3. He "led" his team to a 4-23 record without Lebron;

4. He and Dion Waiters clashed, to the point of a rumored fight. Kyrie allegedly froze Waiters out of the offense;

5. He had "communication issues" with Davis Blatt;

6. He threatened not to re-sign in Cleveland unless they fired Mike Brown;

7. He pouts on the court, which has been noted repeatedly in the media. He skipped Fan Appreciation Night;

Just go back and read media from 2014, before Lebron got there. Kyrie was being savaged by media and other GMs for his immaturity. Byron Scott noted he "changed" (in a negative way) after he made his first All-Star game.

Effectively, you're criticizing his moves when he was 22. God I'm thrilled that no one here knows what I was doing when I was 22.

The first three points are from the past season, so age 25. At what age does leadership develop?

[green_bballers13]

In general, I believe that leaders are expected to lead as they mature. We aren't looking to Tatum/Nader/Semi/etc for leadership this year, but rather depend on Horford and Hayward. They are the experienced veterans, on a relative basis.

In the real world, entry level employees often rely on managers for leadership. It would be nice if 22 year olds were given the reins on day one- it just doesn't make much sense though. Kyrie was the face of the franchise immediately, b/c CLE was awful. This is not the ideal scenario.

btw- I have no problems with him wanting to leave Cleveland for Boston.

[Ogaju]

Apart from calling David Blatt Davis Blatt those bullet points of Kyrie's flaws seem to be on point. . How did Danny get worked by Lebron....Danny should fired on the spot and banned from Boston.

[Vox_Populi]

I have long been one of Irving's biggest detractors. During the FIBA tournament where people applauded his 'improved' defense when I knew it had more to do with the opposition than any progress. I have no problem saying Isaiah, Lillard and Wall were better than him last season - forget about Westbrook and Curry. That said...

My opinion of him has, for whatever reason, improved very much over the last year. I genuinely think he has another level to reach.

[max215]

Some of you guys are going to be disappointed by Kyrie's "leadership" and defense, along with his ability and willingness to pass. I'm guessing that those praising him for such things haven't followed Kyrie's career closely.

Kyrie is a highlight superstar, man.

[green_bballers13]

Some of you guys are going to be disappointed by Kyrie's "leadership" and defense, along with his ability and willingness to pass. I'm guessing that those praising him for such things haven't followed Kyrie's career closely.

Kyrie is a highlight superstar, man.

Yeah, the more I look, the more I like. He's basically a better, younger version of IT.

[max215]

Some of you guys are going to be disappointed by Kyrie's "leadership" and defense, along with his ability and willingness to pass. I'm guessing that those praising him for such things haven't followed Kyrie's career closely.

Kyrie is a highlight superstar, man.

Yeah, the more I look, the more I like. He's basically a better, younger version of IT.

That's...not what I meant.

[BringToughnessBack]

https://www.fanragsports.com/cavaliers/porous-pick-roll-defense-kyrie-irving-killing-cavaliers/

Dont get me wrong here, I am excited about the possibilities of Kyrie learning some better D but from what I have heard and seen so far, we might be waiting a long time. Danny did not unload the treasure chest for his D though, that is a hundred percent sure.

On a different front, many Cavs fans said they are still waiting to see Kyrie and Love do any consistent form of pick and roll on offense and they said good luck in us ever seeing that with Horford and Kyrie as well.

On the bright side, we have an amazing isolation player who can silence teams at the end of games and that should not be overlooked. Kyrie and Hayward should be a joy for us during playoff games when the game is on the line.

[green_bballers13]

Some of you guys are going to be disappointed by Kyrie's "leadership" and defense, along with his ability and willingness to pass. I'm guessing that those praising him for such things haven't followed Kyrie's career closely.

Kyrie is a highlight superstar, man.

Yeah, the more I look, the more I like. He's basically a better, younger version of IT.

That's...not what I meant.

The internet is a hard medium to convey sarcasm. We can't see your rolling eyes or any other indicators to suggest that your words are not a good representation of your message. In my book, the words highlight and superstar are good things, at least when referencing basketball.

So.... what did you mean?

[Roy H.]

Some of you guys are going to be disappointed by Kyrie's "leadership" and defense, along with his ability and willingness to pass. I'm guessing that those praising him for such things haven't followed Kyrie's career closely.

Kyrie is a highlight superstar, man.

Yeah, the more I look, the more I like. He's basically a better, younger version of IT.

That's...not what I meant.

The internet is a hard medium to convey sarcasm. We can't see your rolling eyes or any other indicators to suggest that your words are not a good representation of your message. In my book, the words highlight and superstar are good things, at least when referencing basketball.

So.... what did you mean?

If he'd said "YouTube superstar" would it have been clearer?