So which team has more incentive to get the deal done?

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Besides getting Irving , i always thought it solved the nagging problem of what t do,about IT and his future , the contract , amount and number of years . 

I figured if IT was not damaged hed get a very nice offer , but he was going to,shop,himself around to get th max .

He just really needed this year to come back and prove he is 100% healthy before slinging max contracts his way .

I just have my doubts he can play up to max contract level again and sustain that level l uninjuried for a solid year. I guess Danny does too.

I never saw IT staying in Boston long regardless how all this turns out.

[Vermont Green]

I think CLE will see if they can get more from Boston and when Boston balks, they will void it.

Interesting articles on the awfulness of the deal from the C's perspective:

https://clutchpoints.com/kyrie-irving-trade-cavs-horrible-blunder-celtics/

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-trade-celtics-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-jae-crowder-danny-ainge-lebron-james/64qsof7uzrdg1keabh0lxofrw

https://sircharlesincharge.com/2017/08/28/nba-trade-rumors-cavs-celtics-holdup-blame/

All three of those articles based their conclusion on the fact that Kyrie and IT are nearly identical players based on stats from last year.  So if you believe that IT will be as good this coming season as last season, then you believe this is a bad trade for the Celtics.  In reality, it is very unlikely that IT will be as good next season, even before all the injury hype, and very likely that Kyrie will be as good or better.

It is clear now that the Celtics knew they would have to "manage" IT's hip and that he was not going to have a repeat of the kind of season he had in 2016-17.  Cleveland should have known this too but they seem to be pretending they didn't.

This is such a bad trade for Boston and a good trade for Cleveland that now Cleveland wants more or may back out.  I think we all know now that these articles are pretty much off the mark.

[greece66]

The answer is clearly Boston, and Cleveland knows it. Arguably, the most important position is PG. Danny just passed on two in the draft because it was assumed that PG was a position of strength with Isaiah. Then all of a sudden, a top ten player in the league becomes available in Irving. The Celtics have the assets and agree on a deal. Assuming the deal is voided, the Celtics now have a disgruntled PG, who feels betrayed. Why would Isaiah risk further injury for a team that doesn't want him? If his main goal is to get paid, then he will elect to have the surgery, most likely miss this season, so that he can be fully healed for next off season. He could hold private workouts for interested teams that are willing to sign him as a free agent. Lets not forget that the Celtics will not have enough cap room next off season to sign any meaningful PG free agent.

Punishing your team's FO is a very strange reason to have a surgery.

I think he would look at it as setting himself up for a better future. You know, just like the Celtics are trying to trade him for a better future with Irving. Surgery would be a good business move.

I see your point, and I have two objections.

1. Between May and July IT had the time to consider his options and decided not to go for a surgery. I don't see what has changed now and he now needs the surgery.
In other words, IMO we are putting too much faith into the leaks about the Cavs physical.
2. As celticinorlando writes, if IT goes for the surgery now this means he wasted a lot of time. He will also be playing with fire staying out for a good part of a contract season.

Personally, I think the trade will go through (otherwise the Cavs would have moved on already) and  IT won't have the surgery (because this is a decision he already took and acted upon).

[Moranis]

Let them deal with the Bucks. The crown jewel of the deal is an almost certain top 5 nets pick. The pick they get from the Bucks will be very low because the Bucks are going to be good.

The Suns can give them Bledsoe..but a gimpy Thomas is better than him. They can give them a pick but the are not giving them Jackson who the Cavs really want.

a healthy Thomas is definitely better than Bledsoe in a vacuum, but Thomas isn't healthy and while Thomas is better than Bledsoe, the Cavs might actually be better off with Bledsoe who is a much better defender than Thomas and thus might provide a better matchup against the Warriors.  They would however miss out on Crowder, who would be great in the GS matchup, and the BKN pick, which will almost certainly be better than the Miami 1st.  Thus, it is clear the Cavs would rather do the Boston trade, but they need Thomas to be able to play and play at a high level this year.  If he can't, they might very well void the trade and move on to Milwaukee, Phoenix, or some other team. 

Boston though is in a great deal of trouble if the trade gets voided.  They really can't go back to Thomas and Crowder after the trade, but there isn't going to be a market for Thomas at all. 

[SHAQATTACK]

Cavs are not getting back a player anywhere good as Irving .....they need to face that fact ....they are calling the trade on their own terms.   


From what ive seen of all th actual asset Cavs can get ,  not spin ,  or guessing or wishing .   The Celtics Nets pick is the ONlY offering that remotely has the possibility of truely causing Lebron to stay .  Without that pick for trade bait or rebuilding ......Cleveland is a fast sinking ship.

Lebron is not staying to play with Rose / Bledsoe and Bender and Love .   That might not get them past even the Bucks or Raptors , Heat ...much less GS .

Lebron is a year older , while he can still dominate ,  I see him not mentally wanting to take on Irvings load of the scoring and play 100% energy enough nights .  Lebron puts less and less energy into regluar season games ever year.  Eventually father time will catch up . He always does.

[johnnygreen]

I really hope Isaiah doesn't need surgery, and that Cleveland is just trying to squeeze one last asset out of Boston. However, it seems that a lot of people here just assume Isaiah will play for Boston and be 100% healthy if the deal is voided. Cleveland already proved this past season that they don't care about the regular season, so if Isaiah only needs additional time off going into the season, then what is the holdup?

Look at it from a different point of view. Before his hip injury, a trade offer of Isaiah, Crowder, and Zizic probably would have been enough for Irving, after his trade request went public. Isaiah was a top 5 MVP candidate and will only make around $6 million next season. After the hip injury, Boston is willing to throw in the possible #1 pick in the next loaded draft and it's still not good enough to get the deal done? Something is clearly wrong if neither team wants an MVP caliber player and possibly next year's #1 draft pick.

If his trade value has it rock bottom because of his hip, then shouldn't it be logical that the same concerns may effect his free agency? My only point about the surgery, was if it was inevitable during his NBA career, then why not correct it now. If not, then the hip concern will follow him for the rest of his career and will possibly effect his earning potential.

[JHTruth]

Cavs are not getting back a player anywhere good as Irving .....they need to face that fact ....they are calling the trade on their own terms.   


From what ive seen of all th actual asset Cavs can get ,  not spin ,  or guessing or wishing .   The Celtics Nets pick is the ONlY offering that remotely has the possibility of truely causing Lebron to stay .  Without that pick for trade bait or rebuilding ......Cleveland is a fast sinking ship.

Lebron is not staying to play with Rose / Bledsoe and Bender and Love .   That might not get them past even the Bucks or Raptors , Heat ...much less GS .

Lebron is a year older , while he can still dominate ,  I see him not mentally wanting to take on Irvings load of the scoring and play 100% energy enough nights .  Lebron puts less and less energy into regluar season games ever year.  Eventually father time will catch up . He always does.

Why in the world would LeBron stay because of the Nets pick? He had Wiggins shipped out ASAP to get Love when he first returned. LeBron wants nothing but guys who will contribute immediately. He couldn't care less about lotto picks and rookie bigs. That's the whole reason for the holdup. If they Cavs were simply ready to punt the season, say goodbye to LeBron next summer, and start a rebuild, this trade would already be in the books. The fact that its not means they need some win-now guys in this trade or they can't move forward..

[RJ87]

I really hope Isaiah doesn't need surgery, and that Cleveland is just trying to squeeze one last asset out of Boston. However, it seems that a lot of people here just assume Isaiah will play for Boston and be 100% healthy if the deal is voided.

IT needs surgery. I was legit surprised that they opted against it at the time, and now it's becoming more glaring that perhaps he should've gotten it. At the very least, you get a more concrete timeline of his return.

[johnnygreen]

Cavs are not getting back a player anywhere good as Irving .....they need to face that fact ....they are calling the trade on their own terms.   


From what ive seen of all th actual asset Cavs can get ,  not spin ,  or guessing or wishing .   The Celtics Nets pick is the ONlY offering that remotely has the possibility of truely causing Lebron to stay .  Without that pick for trade bait or rebuilding ......Cleveland is a fast sinking ship.

Lebron is not staying to play with Rose / Bledsoe and Bender and Love .   That might not get them past even the Bucks or Raptors , Heat ...much less GS .

Lebron is a year older , while he can still dominate ,  I see him not mentally wanting to take on Irvings load of the scoring and play 100% energy enough nights .  Lebron puts less and less energy into regluar season games ever year.  Eventually father time will catch up . He always does.

I assume you mean the Cavs using the Nets pick to trade and get another quality veteran in return. Why in the world would LeBron care about a 18-19 year old kid, who will have virtually zero effect on helping LeBron win another title? The Nets pick helps Cleveland long term, but does nothing for LeBron short term.

[celticsclay]

Let them deal with the Bucks. The crown jewel of the deal is an almost certain top 5 nets pick. The pick they get from the Bucks will be very low because the Bucks are going to be good.

The Suns can give them Bledsoe..but a gimpy Thomas is better than him. They can give them a pick but the are not giving them Jackson who the Cavs really want.

a healthy Thomas is definitely better than Bledsoe in a vacuum, but Thomas isn't healthy and while Thomas is better than Bledsoe, the Cavs might actually be better off with Bledsoe who is a much better defender than Thomas and thus might provide a better matchup against the Warriors.  They would however miss out on Crowder, who would be great in the GS matchup, and the BKN pick, which will almost certainly be better than the Miami 1st.  Thus, it is clear the Cavs would rather do the Boston trade, but they need Thomas to be able to play and play at a high level this year.  If he can't, they might very well void the trade and move on to Milwaukee, Phoenix, or some other team. 

Boston though is in a great deal of trouble if the trade gets voided.  They really can't go back to Thomas and Crowder after the trade, but there isn't going to be a market for Thomas at all.

You really are glossing over the fact that Irving is going to be very p---ed off of a deal to a contender doesn't happen to play for a coach he really admired and he gets shipped to a likely lottery team out west. I doubt he waives his trade kicker or gives any indication he will resign there if the cavs backed out of the deal at this point. As usual you are focusing on just the downsides for the Celtics and not acknowledging the very real problems this will cause for Cleveland. I would have bet several thousand dollars when someone asked who backing out of the deal would hurt more you would say the Celtics and take a glass half full approach. You are nothing if not predictable.

[celticsclay]

Let them deal with the Bucks. The crown jewel of the deal is an almost certain top 5 nets pick. The pick they get from the Bucks will be very low because the Bucks are going to be good.

The Suns can give them Bledsoe..but a gimpy Thomas is better than him. They can give them a pick but the are not giving them Jackson who the Cavs really want.

a healthy Thomas is definitely better than Bledsoe in a vacuum, but Thomas isn't healthy and while Thomas is better than Bledsoe, the Cavs might actually be better off with Bledsoe who is a much better defender than Thomas and thus might provide a better matchup against the Warriors.  They would however miss out on Crowder, who would be great in the GS matchup, and the BKN pick, which will almost certainly be better than the Miami 1st.  Thus, it is clear the Cavs would rather do the Boston trade, but they need Thomas to be able to play and play at a high level this year.  If he can't, they might very well void the trade and move on to Milwaukee, Phoenix, or some other team. 

Boston though is in a great deal of trouble if the trade gets voided.  They really can't go back to Thomas and Crowder after the trade, but there isn't going to be a market for Thomas at all.

You really are glossing over the fact that Irving is going to be very p---ed off of a deal to a contender doesn't happen to play for a coach he really admired and he gets shipped to a likely lottery team out west. I doubt he waives his trade kicker or gives any indication he will resign there if the cavs backed out of the deal at this point. Will the suns even give up Bledsoe and Jackson for a p---ed off irving that won't resign?  As usual you are focusing on just the downsides for the Celtics and not acknowledging the very real problems this will cause for Cleveland. I would have bet several thousand dollars when someone asked who backing out of the deal would hurt more you would say the Celtics and take a glass half full approach. You are nothing if not predictable.

[GreenEnvy]

The answer is clearly Boston, and Cleveland knows it. Arguably, the most important position is PG. Danny just passed on two in the draft because it was assumed that PG was a position of strength with Isaiah. Then all of a sudden, a top ten player in the league becomes available in Irving. The Celtics have the assets and agree on a deal. Assuming the deal is voided, the Celtics now have a disgruntled PG, who feels betrayed. Why would Isaiah risk further injury for a team that doesn't want him? If his main goal is to get paid, then he will elect to have the surgery, most likely miss this season, so that he can be fully healed for next off season. He could hold private workouts for interested teams that are willing to sign him as a free agent. Lets not forget that the Celtics will not have enough cap room next off season to sign any meaningful PG free agent.

Punishing your team's FO is a very strange reason to have a surgery.

I think he would look at it as setting himself up for a better future. You know, just like the Celtics are trying to trade him for a better future with Irving. Surgery would be a good business move.

I see your point, and I have two objections.

1. Between May and July IT had the time to consider his options and decided not to go for a surgery. I don't see what has changed now and he now needs the surgery.
In other words, IMO we are putting too much faith into the leaks about the Cavs physical.
2. As celticinorlando writes, if IT goes for the surgery now this means he wasted a lot of time. He will also be playing with fire staying out for a good part of a contract season.

Personally, I think the trade will go through (otherwise the Cavs would have moved on already) and  IT won't have the surgery (because this is a decision he already took and acted upon).

I agree. You'd have to think it wasn't solely up to IT on whether or not he had surgery. Of course, it was ultimately his decision, but many opinions went into his decision. He decided against it, and we haven't heard any team brass say they recommended surgery.

Now he needs it? Ok, let's say he does. Why can't he have it now? Do it September 1st, put him on the long end of rehab and he can return the beginning of March. That gives him plenty of time to shake off any rust/conditioning for the playoffs. Maybe he lost a couple months (didn't he need time after he went down for good because of swelling?), let's say he could have had it July 1st. So what, do it now.

Nowhere has this been classified as a career-ending/altering injury until this physical. Nobody on this board was talking about how IT would never be the same before he was traded.

[Moranis]

Let them deal with the Bucks. The crown jewel of the deal is an almost certain top 5 nets pick. The pick they get from the Bucks will be very low because the Bucks are going to be good.

The Suns can give them Bledsoe..but a gimpy Thomas is better than him. They can give them a pick but the are not giving them Jackson who the Cavs really want.

a healthy Thomas is definitely better than Bledsoe in a vacuum, but Thomas isn't healthy and while Thomas is better than Bledsoe, the Cavs might actually be better off with Bledsoe who is a much better defender than Thomas and thus might provide a better matchup against the Warriors.  They would however miss out on Crowder, who would be great in the GS matchup, and the BKN pick, which will almost certainly be better than the Miami 1st.  Thus, it is clear the Cavs would rather do the Boston trade, but they need Thomas to be able to play and play at a high level this year.  If he can't, they might very well void the trade and move on to Milwaukee, Phoenix, or some other team. 

Boston though is in a great deal of trouble if the trade gets voided.  They really can't go back to Thomas and Crowder after the trade, but there isn't going to be a market for Thomas at all.

You really are glossing over the fact that Irving is going to be very p---ed off of a deal to a contender doesn't happen to play for a coach he really admired and he gets shipped to a likely lottery team out west. I doubt he waives his trade kicker or gives any indication he will resign there if the cavs backed out of the deal at this point. As usual you are focusing on just the downsides for the Celtics and not acknowledging the very real problems this will cause for Cleveland. I would have bet several thousand dollars when someone asked who backing out of the deal would hurt more you would say the Celtics and take a glass half full approach. You are nothing if not predictable.

Irving still has plenty of value around the league.  Do you think Milwaukee is just going to pull its Brogdon, Middleton, 1st offer or Phoenix all of a sudden won't trade Bledsoe, Bender, Miami 1st?  Irving doesn't have a choice in where he goes, sure he can not waive the trade kicker and might claim he will leave in 2 years, but Milwaukee and Phoenix both knew that before they made their offers.  Nothing has changed for them in that regard. 

The Cavs downside is solely in receiving lesser value from some other team than they receive from the Celtics.  That is it, because Cleveland will still be able to move Irving.  What team is going to acquire Thomas now?  and if the Celtics can't trade him (which seems likely), how are they going to mend the fence?  You see if Boston can't mend that fence, then Thomas just leaves next summer leaving Boston nothing for him and he becomes a disgruntled expiring contract who isn't going to go out of his way to help Boston at his own detriment this year.  Thomas isn't going to play through an injury like he might have otherwise because that risks his future and why would he do that for a team he isn't going to be on and that treated him unfairly (in his eyes for sure).  Trading Crowder won't be a problem as he still has plenty of value, but trading Thomas, that is a real problem if the trade gets voided.

[Spilling Green Dye]

I absolutely think Cleveland has way more pressure/incentive to get the deal done.  With our without this deal the Celtics' future is great.  Cleveland on the other hand is risking going completely down the toilet in a year or two unless they get a future (draft picks, etc.)

[tstorey_97]

Now call me crazy....Cav's knew Thomas might miss this season, just like Ainge did, but, agreed to trade.

Crowder and Brkn #1 for Kyrie. Adding Thomas helps the salary.

If this is true, what beyond Crowder + Bkn pick is needed to further balance trade?

Crowder + Brkn #1 + another (non LA) first rounder from pile?

Is this group of assets  close enough to "market value" for Irving?


Butler = Lavine + Dunn
Irving = Crowder + Bkn #1 + ? 

The situation, as we all know, is not straight up. Irving is shooting his way out of town.

In closing, it would seem that eliminating Thomas from the discussion would be best as he might not be available to play big minutes this year negating his trade value.

Some math indicates the Celtics are taking some salary from Cav's who need some cap space.
Thomas never said "hello Cleveland."
James has never welcomed Thomas to "his" team.

Cav's take Thomas' salary as part of deal. They know he won't play much if at all.
Celtics "eat" $3.2M in excess cap from the deal...$3.2M off cap is A LOT for Lux tax Cavs.
Not done yet....next year, Cav's gain $6.2M when Thomas exits.

These are so called benefits to Cav's with Irving departing.

Which team needs this deal? Ainge is the boss and he "needs" Irving.
Cavs are getting held up by one of their big three and need a clean deal to get them out of Kyriegate and into next title run.

I don't hang with Cav's brass, but, I strongly suggest that Irving knows that Lebron intends to depart next year. This explains his ask out.

I guess Cav's need Brkn pick to commence rebuild through trade or draft.

This might mean Kyrie gets assets in a trade.
Love trade gets assets...what else can they do? Ainge traded his stars, Can't trade Lebron? Trade everybody else.

Once Irving & Lebron leaves you have Klove and Crowder and building blocks right?