Caveat Emptor

[Ogaju]

Latin for Buyer Beware...

Basically the legal doctrine that deals with buyer remorse situations in contractual relationships. It basically means than when parties that have somewhat equal bargaining power, sophistication, and bargain at arms length, the deal consummated is considered final once all conditions are satisfied. The 'passing the physical' condition in the contract is obviously the governing clause at this point. If that clause calls for the players to pass the physical examination conducted by the medical team of their new teams I would argue that it gives either team a means to reneg on the contract by simply having its medical team fail the
player(s) if it has buyer's remorse.

Looks like Cavs red the press the last couple of days, figured Ainge swindled them, and developed a case of buyer's remorse and ordered the code red. By doing this they get to renegotiate what they consider to be a bad deal, or void the deal altogether. I do not know what the NBA rules are, but if this were any other type of contract, the Celtics would bulk and there will  be an independent physical examination to resolve the dispute between the teams. The problems I have with this deal, why wasn't IT sold to the Cav 'as is' given that the parties knew about his season ending hip injury, or was he?

The other question is whether passing the physical is a condition precedent to the contract, or a condition subsequent to the contract. How this is interpreted obviously affects the respective leverage of the parties.

All these remain to be seen.
 

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I thought "Caveat" was a place where the Cavs eat, and "Emptor" meant they were out of food.

[Ogaju]

I thought "Caveat" was a place where the Cavs eat, and "Emptor" meant they were out of food.

Well played, TP.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I thought "Caveat" was a place where the Cavs eat, and "Emptor" meant they were out of food.

Well played, TP.

Thanks 

[tazzmaniac]

The rules are all players in a trade have to pass the physical from the team they are traded to  before the trade is complete.  Until they all pass, none of the players are allowed to suit up for their new team.  A team may waive a player's physical but that would really only happen if the player was trade filler that the new team planned on waiving anyway. 

It certainly wasn't a given that IT would need surgery this season.  The story until now has been IT's hip wasn't going to need surgery but that he might miss the beginning of the season while he rehabbed.   That's a significant difference for the Cavs who were at a minimum looking to make one last championship run before they started a rebuild. 

[__ramonezy__]

The rules are all players in a trade have to pass the physical from the team they are traded to  before the trade is complete.  Until they all pass, none of the players are allowed to suit up for their new team.  A team may waive a player's physical but that would really only happen if the player was trade filler that the new team planned on waiving anyway. 

It certainly wasn't a given that IT would need surgery this season.  The story until now has been IT's hip wasn't going to need surgery but that he might miss the beginning of the season while he rehabbed.   That's a significant difference for the Cavs who were at a minimum looking to make one last championship run before they started a rebuild.

What I want to know is what is the rule when you choose to trade for a known injured player. From the outside it seems that the inclusion of Crowder and the unprotected BK pick was to compensate for the injury.... so how can all parties complete the trade call with NBA and now have an issue.... nothing was hidden. If IT was healthy there is no way we would give up both Crowder and the BK pick.

[billysan]

The rules are all players in a trade have to pass the physical from the team they are traded to  before the trade is complete.  Until they all pass, none of the players are allowed to suit up for their new team.  A team may waive a player's physical but that would really only happen if the player was trade filler that the new team planned on waiving anyway. 

It certainly wasn't a given that IT would need surgery this season.  The story until now has been IT's hip wasn't going to need surgery but that he might miss the beginning of the season while he rehabbed.   That's a significant difference for the Cavs who were at a minimum looking to make one last championship run before they started a rebuild.

What I want to know is what is the rule when you choose to trade for a known injured player. From the outside it seems that the inclusion of Crowder and the unprotected BK pick was to compensate for the injury.... so how can all parties complete the trade call with NBA and now have an issue.... nothing was hidden. If IT was healthy there is no way we would give up both Crowder and the BK pick.

Interesting, wonder what the perceived value of IT was pretty trade by the Cavs. Was his injury really quantified and considered? This Cavs front office and GMT may find it difficult in the future to make deals if they blow this up with the idea they 'didn't know' how Thomas injury rehab would progres if at all. No player, coach, agent or organization in any sport wants to take its players through this kind of scenario. Too much chance for hard feelings and damaged reputation going forward.

I wonder if Lebron had his hand in this? He could have said OK go ahead and trade Kyrie, but you better hope IT is healthy or I'm gone. I don't believe  they make this or any deal without his approval.

[green_bballers13]

I'm sure doing negotiations, the Celtics did not present IT as a player that might have a major surgery. If anything, they told the Cavs that he would need a minor surgery and would play a majority of the regular season and playoffs.

If you were a Cavs fan, wouldn't you feel like you were sold a bill of goods if the best player you got back in a trade has to miss significant time, before he leaves town for FA?

[billysan]

The key here as stated above  is 'known injured player'. It's been all over the news since after the playoffs.

Can't believe the information including medical evaluation  by his doctors was not made available or that anyone would agree even in principle to such a deal without seeing and considering that. That really would make the CAVS front office  look like rank amateurs.

[No Nickname]

The rules are all players in a trade have to pass the physical from the team they are traded to  before the trade is complete.  Until they all pass, none of the players are allowed to suit up for their new team.  A team may waive a player's physical but that would really only happen if the player was trade filler that the new team planned on waiving anyway. 

It certainly wasn't a given that IT would need surgery this season.  The story until now has been IT's hip wasn't going to need surgery but that he might miss the beginning of the season while he rehabbed.   That's a significant difference for the Cavs who were at a minimum looking to make one last championship run before they started a rebuild.

What I want to know is what is the rule when you choose to trade for a known injured player. From the outside it seems that the inclusion of Crowder and the unprotected BK pick was to compensate for the injury.... so how can all parties complete the trade call with NBA and now have an issue.... nothing was hidden. If IT was healthy there is no way we would give up both Crowder and the BK pick.

Interesting, wonder what the perceived value of IT was pretty trade by the Cavs. Was his injury really quantified and considered? This Cavs front office and GMT may find it difficult in the future to make deals if they blow this up with the idea they 'didn't know' how Thomas injury rehab would progres if at all. No player, coach, agent or organization in any sport wants to take its players through this kind of scenario. Too much chance for hard feelings and damaged reputation going forward.

I wonder if Lebron had his hand in this? He could have said OK go ahead and trade Kyrie, but you better hope IT is healthy or I'm gone. I don't believe  they make this or any deal without his approval.

Danny had to know what IT's health status was. Otherwise there's no way he trades an All-NBA second team guy plus the Nets' pick and the best contract 3&D guy, and a 7-ft rookie for Kyrie.

Even if IT doesn't play until March that trade favors the Cavs (depending obviously on where the Nets pick ends up).  And that's why Danny made this trade.

[tazzmaniac]

The rules are all players in a trade have to pass the physical from the team they are traded to  before the trade is complete.  Until they all pass, none of the players are allowed to suit up for their new team.  A team may waive a player's physical but that would really only happen if the player was trade filler that the new team planned on waiving anyway. 

It certainly wasn't a given that IT would need surgery this season.  The story until now has been IT's hip wasn't going to need surgery but that he might miss the beginning of the season while he rehabbed.   That's a significant difference for the Cavs who were at a minimum looking to make one last championship run before they started a rebuild.

What I want to know is what is the rule when you choose to trade for a known injured player. From the outside it seems that the inclusion of Crowder and the unprotected BK pick was to compensate for the injury.... so how can all parties complete the trade call with NBA and now have an issue.... nothing was hidden. If IT was healthy there is no way we would give up both Crowder and the BK pick.

Known injured player is highly variable.  Doctors often disagree on the severity of an injury and the course of treatment.  Some teams medical staffs will red flag an injured draftee while others might not.  As I said, the story has been that IT was just going to rehab and maybe missed the start of the season but not need surgery now.  At a minimum, that would have allowed the Cavs to make one more championship run before rebuilding while having some hope Levron would stay.  If the Cavs medical evaluation is that IT needs surgery now and will likely miss the season that is a significantly different scenario. 

To take it away from this situation where people are clearly biased.  If you're buying a used car that was in an accident, you're not going to trust the seller's mechanic that everything has been repaired correctly.  You're going to take it to your own mechanic before you complete the transaction. 

[Ogaju]

It boils down to the terms of the contract and the conditions and representations that were made. Example, what if the Celtics told the Cavs that IT's hip was non-surgical as far as they knew, but IT now reveals to the Cavs the name of one of the many doctors he has seen on his own who may have told him he definitely needs surgery? That will be knew information that Boston did not have and could not have shared.

Second, what if Boston had traded IT as is subject to given future consideration if he really needs surgery. Question then becomes who determines 'if he really needs surgery'.

Remember, Cavs do not owe IT anything. His team may have told him to tank the physical so he can fully rehab for a year and then go after his brinks truck.

[mctyson]

The rules are all players in a trade have to pass the physical from the team they are traded to  before the trade is complete.  Until they all pass, none of the players are allowed to suit up for their new team.

Yes those are the rules but this is not a trade for role-players.  When you said someone like Kyrie out for IT, you do your detailed homework.

I cannot think of a trade in any sport of this magnitude that has been rescinded following a physical.

[mctyson]

It boils down to the terms of the contract and the conditions and representations that were made. Example, what if the Celtics told the Cavs that IT's hip was non-surgical as far as they knew, but IT now reveals to the Cavs the name of one of the many doctors he has seen on his own who may have told him he definitely needs surgery? That will be knew information that Boston did not have and could not have shared.

Second, what if Boston had traded IT as is subject to given future consideration if he really needs surgery. Question then becomes who determines 'if he really needs surgery'.

Remember, Cavs do not owe IT anything. His team may have told him to tank the physical so he can fully rehab for a year and then go after his brinks truck.

You can't tank an evaluation of a labrum tear. 

[Moranis]

The rules are all players in a trade have to pass the physical from the team they are traded to  before the trade is complete.  Until they all pass, none of the players are allowed to suit up for their new team.  A team may waive a player's physical but that would really only happen if the player was trade filler that the new team planned on waiving anyway. 

It certainly wasn't a given that IT would need surgery this season.  The story until now has been IT's hip wasn't going to need surgery but that he might miss the beginning of the season while he rehabbed.   That's a significant difference for the Cavs who were at a minimum looking to make one last championship run before they started a rebuild.

What I want to know is what is the rule when you choose to trade for a known injured player. From the outside it seems that the inclusion of Crowder and the unprotected BK pick was to compensate for the injury.... so how can all parties complete the trade call with NBA and now have an issue.... nothing was hidden. If IT was healthy there is no way we would give up both Crowder and the BK pick.

they still have to "pass" the physical.  Obviously everyone knows he is injured, but all reports were no surgery and should be ready at the start of or near the start of the season.  If that isn't the case then he fails the physical. 

Say you acquire a guy you know has a knee injury, but all reports are sprained MCL.  When you get him in there and do the physical you discover he doesn't have a sprained MCL, but has a torn ACL.  Vastly different things.