Author Topic: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season  (Read 17740 times)

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Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2017, 07:36:42 PM »

Offline BostonClamCrowdah

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Good enough to get to the finals 3 years in a row

LBJ didn't do it alone
Actually, he kind of did. Check out the Cav's record when Lebron sits out. It's not a pretty sight.

Check Kyries stats
 He kind of didnt

Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #76 on: September 04, 2017, 07:47:22 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I think people know that Kyrie is not a good defender, but neither was Thomas and theoretically, Kyrie can get better under Stevens. I think that's what Danny is hoping for.

Last season, Kyrie wasn't just "not a good defender". According to the folks over at 538, he was "historically bad".

I'm hopeful he'll get better, but last season he was worse than IT at defense. The thing that worries me is that the Cavs had to dumb things down for their guys, replacing switches with straight man to man because players - namely Kyrie and Love - struggled.


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Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #77 on: September 04, 2017, 07:52:09 PM »

Offline BostonClamCrowdah

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if Stephen curry dominated Kyrie in the finals I might be concerned about his defense

But Kyrie has outplayed him two straight years now

Not an issue. Who cares how he defends in Milwaukee in December?

IT was horrible too.

Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #78 on: September 04, 2017, 07:52:59 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Good enough to get to the finals 3 years in a row

LBJ didn't do it alone
Actually, he kind of did. Check out the Cav's record when Lebron sits out. It's not a pretty sight.

Check Kyries stats
 He kind of didnt

It's more complicated than that:

Quote
Most concerning: Irving and the Cavs were outscored by 8 points per 100 possessions this season without James on the court, a night-and-day difference from the 9 points per 100 plays they outscored opponents by when Irving played with James.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/kyrie-irving-wants-to-be-a-no-1-but-hes-better-as-a-sidekick/amp/

Kyrie is a great scorer, but he hasn't shown much ability to lift his team without Lebron on the court. That's at least partially because he doesn't have the all-around game to carry a squad.


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Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #79 on: September 04, 2017, 07:59:33 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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Good enough to get to the finals 3 years in a row

LBJ didn't do it alone
Actually, he kind of did. Check out the Cav's record when Lebron sits out. It's not a pretty sight.

Check Kyries stats
 He kind of didnt

It's more complicated than that:

Quote
Most concerning: Irving and the Cavs were outscored by 8 points per 100 possessions this season without James on the court, a night-and-day difference from the 9 points per 100 plays they outscored opponents by when Irving played with James.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/kyrie-irving-wants-to-be-a-no-1-but-hes-better-as-a-sidekick/amp/

Kyrie is a great scorer, but he hasn't shown much ability to lift his team without Lebron on the court. That's at least partially because he doesn't have the all-around game to carry a squad.
I like our chances of smart/hayward/morris/horford hiding Irving the same way lebron did or close. None of those 4 are slouches on defense

Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #80 on: September 04, 2017, 08:01:37 PM »

Online Roy H.

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if Stephen curry dominated Kyrie in the finals I might be concerned about his defense


Well, Curry has averaged around 25 / 6 / 6 against Kyrie in the playoffs, making four 3PTs per game on 39% 3PT shooting. So, it's not dominance, perhaps, but it's pretty darn good..


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Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #81 on: September 04, 2017, 08:01:42 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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I think people know that Kyrie is not a good defender, but neither was Thomas and theoretically, Kyrie can get better under Stevens. I think that's what Danny is hoping for.

Last season, Kyrie wasn't just "not a good defender". According to the folks over at 538, he was "historically bad".

I'm hopeful he'll get better, but last season he was worse than IT at defense. The thing that worries me is that the Cavs had to dumb things down for their guys, replacing switches with straight man to man because players - namely Kyrie and Love - struggled.

They also had a 37-year-old Richard Jefferson and J.R Smith playing "defense". Isaiah had Bradley, Smart, Crowder and Horford. Now two of them are gone from the Celtics, but that doesn't mean under the guidance of Stevens that Kyrie can improve. From the games I saw last season, it was more of a individual effort problem from Kyrie and it was even further complicated by the Cavs team defense.

Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #82 on: September 04, 2017, 08:05:50 PM »

Offline jdz101

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Good enough to get to the finals 3 years in a row

LBJ didn't do it alone
Actually, he kind of did. Check out the Cav's record when Lebron sits out. It's not a pretty sight.

Check Kyries stats
 He kind of didnt

It's more complicated than that:

Quote
Most concerning: Irving and the Cavs were outscored by 8 points per 100 possessions this season without James on the court, a night-and-day difference from the 9 points per 100 plays they outscored opponents by when Irving played with James.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/kyrie-irving-wants-to-be-a-no-1-but-hes-better-as-a-sidekick/amp/

Kyrie is a great scorer, but he hasn't shown much ability to lift his team without Lebron on the court. That's at least partially because he doesn't have the all-around game to carry a squad.

What are those numbers like for all the teams lebron has been on?


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #83 on: September 04, 2017, 08:11:14 PM »

Offline BostonClamCrowdah

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if Stephen curry dominated Kyrie in the finals I might be concerned about his defense


Well, Curry has averaged around 25 / 6 / 6 against Kyrie in the playoffs, making four 3PTs per game on 39% 3PT shooting. So, it's not dominance, perhaps, but it's pretty darn good..

Kyrie was better

And those are below average numbers for Curry lol

Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #84 on: September 04, 2017, 08:12:33 PM »

Offline BostonClamCrowdah

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 8)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 08:19:47 PM by BostonClamCrowdah »

Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #85 on: September 04, 2017, 08:13:45 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Good enough to get to the finals 3 years in a row

LBJ didn't do it alone
Actually, he kind of did. Check out the Cav's record when Lebron sits out. It's not a pretty sight.

Check Kyries stats
 He kind of didnt

It's more complicated than that:

Quote
Most concerning: Irving and the Cavs were outscored by 8 points per 100 possessions this season without James on the court, a night-and-day difference from the 9 points per 100 plays they outscored opponents by when Irving played with James.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/kyrie-irving-wants-to-be-a-no-1-but-hes-better-as-a-sidekick/amp/

Kyrie is a great scorer, but he hasn't shown much ability to lift his team without Lebron on the court. That's at least partially because he doesn't have the all-around game to carry a squad.

What are those numbers like for all the teams lebron has been on?

I don't have Synergy / SportsVu, but looking at the "lineup" info on basketball-reference, the Heat had a healthy point differential with the most frequently used lineups featuring Wade but not LBJ.


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Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #86 on: September 04, 2017, 08:22:00 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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He doesn't play good defense during the regular season because he's pacing himself just like the rest of his team.  He has played very well defensively in the playoffs including the finals.  I don't see that as something to be worried about.

Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #87 on: September 04, 2017, 08:26:55 PM »

Online Roy H.

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if Stephen curry dominated Kyrie in the finals I might be concerned about his defense


Well, Curry has averaged around 25 / 6 / 6 against Kyrie in the playoffs, making four 3PTs per game on 39% 3PT shooting. So, it's not dominance, perhaps, but it's pretty darn good..

Kyrie was better

And those are below average numbers for Curry lol

I'm not sure about "better". It's close. Kyrie had 3.2 ppg more than Curry, on 4.9 more shots and 3.1 more minutes per game. Curry had 2.0 more assists and 1.8 more rebounds. Curry's team has a 8-5 record H2H against Kyrie in the playoffs.


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Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #88 on: September 04, 2017, 08:32:30 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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This tendency to take stats, especially defensive "stats" that are pretty much worthless at isolating individual impacts, out of context is really frustrating, and it has only seemingly got worse since we got Kyrie.

This is literally like apples and oranges, folks. You're trying to compare the defensive impact of a guy (IT) that almost always played with two to three elite-level defenders to a guy (Kyrie) that may have had three above average defenders on his entire team. This gave IT much more help defensively, and it also allowed him to be hid more often on the D, which Kyrie didn't really get.

Furthermore, Cleveland legitimately did not care about defense, and that's not an exaggeration. They just were not focused on that side of the ball, because it didn't play into their strengths. Contrast that with Stevens' defense-first approach, and of course that's going to affect the comparison between starting guards.

Yeah, Kyrie has been a bad defender for most of his career; nobody is disputing that. However, unlike IT, Kyrie has all of the tools necessary to be an average or even a slightly above average defender, and we've actually seen him play high-level defense in the playoffs in their championship year, which is much more than you can say about IT. It's not any great leap of faith to suggest that Kyrie will be a much more reliable defender in our system that actually focuses on D and regularly utilizes high-level defenders (Smart, Horford, Morris, Hayward, Baynes, with hopefully Brown being added to that list this year).

Hell, by virtue of being 6-7 inches taller alone Kyrie is a much more dependable defender than IT. I understand the need to romanticize the past after such an emotional trade, but do people really not remember how bad IT's defense was all throughout the regular season and playoffs, especially the playoffs? He was picked on in every single series, and there was simply no covering for his defensive deficiencies. That's something that simply won't happen with Kyrie due to his excellent size at his position.

EDIT: Greece666 posted this Simmons quote on another thread, and I think it fits perfectly with what I'm saying here:

Quote
Isaiah, you know, in the Wizards series, again I love the guy, I'll defend him to the death, but the Wizards series, against Wall and Beal, was pretty eye-opening, they couldn't figure out who to play him on defense. Kyrie's not a stud on defense, but the Isaiah thing was a real problem, and I think Washington should have beat Boston in that series.
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Re: Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season
« Reply #89 on: September 04, 2017, 08:34:07 PM »

Online Roy H.

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He doesn't play good defense during the regular season because he's pacing himself just like the rest of his team.  He has played very well defensively in the playoffs including the finals.  I don't see that as something to be worried about.

I've read this a few times, and I don't think it's true. How do you define "very good defensively"?


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes