Quantifying how bad Kyrie's defense was last season

[Roy H.]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

[Somebody]

That is why I'm still iffy on the trade: Kyrie needs to be a legit top 2 MVP candidate in order to justify the package.

[18isGREATERthan72]

How exactly do these stats stack up in comparison to the team defense?  I am not saying that Kyrie wasn't a bad defender, only that he was a bad defender on a bad defensive team that didn't give a care about defense.  IT was a bad defender on a good defensive team that did care about defense.

I never expect Kyrie to be a top tier defender, but you have to admit his defensive floor is probably higher than IT's is, right?

[Roy H.]

How exactly do these stats stack up in comparison to the team defense?  I am not saying that Kyrie wasn't a bad defender, only that he was a bad defender on a bad defensive team that didn't give a care about defense.  IT was a bad defender on a good defensive team that did care about defense.

I never expect Kyrie to be a top tier defender, but you have to admit his defensive floor is probably higher than IT's is, right?

Since Kyrie was a worse defender, no, his floor isn't lower.

[smokeablount]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Where are you getting these stats (source)? I agree that doesn't look good at all, but I also agree that the Cavs team D / rim protectors were terrible. Horford was easily better on D than anyone on the Cavs and he was our 4th best defender.

I also went to just about every home game and watched IT let seemingly every opposing PG nearly double their season scoring average. I'd be willing to bet that if you looked up opposing PG points per game, Kyrie did better than IT.

[playdream]

Among all starting PGs:

* Kyrie was worst in FG% allowed;
* Kyrie was worst in defensive FG% differential

Among all starting guards:

* Kyrie was worst in 3PT% allowed
* Kyrie was worst in defensive 3PT% differential
* Kyrie was 6th worst in defensive 2PT% differential

Notably, Kyrie ranked behind IT in each of those areas.

Additionally:

Kyrie allows opponents to shoot 70.2% with 6 feet of the rim

Kyrie ranked in the bottom 12% of all NBA players in points allowed per possession on isolation plays last year

Key word here being "was"
Kyrie will be willing to play tough-nose defense here and will be a much better defender than he was

[smokeablount]

That is why I'm still iffy on the trade: Kyrie needs to be a legit top 2 MVP candidate in order to justify the package.

I disagree, I think the Nets pick simply has to land outside the top 5-7 picks. If we weren't going to resign IT which seems obvious, then 2 role players and a tier 2 prospect for an Olympian closer on an NBA champ who won all star MVP at age 21 (!) is a pretty [dang] good trade for us.

[18isGREATERthan72]

How exactly do these stats stack up in comparison to the team defense?  I am not saying that Kyrie wasn't a bad defender, only that he was a bad defender on a bad defensive team that didn't give a care about defense.  IT was a bad defender on a good defensive team that did care about defense.

I never expect Kyrie to be a top tier defender, but you have to admit his defensive floor is probably higher than IT's is, right?

Since Kyrie was a worse defender, no, his floor isn't lower.

So defense is a completely individual driven dynamic and has nothing to do with the team surrounding the player.  Got it.

[Eja117]

How exactly do these stats stack up in comparison to the team defense?  I am not saying that Kyrie wasn't a bad defender, only that he was a bad defender on a bad defensive team that didn't give a care about defense.  IT was a bad defender on a good defensive team that did care about defense.

I never expect Kyrie to be a top tier defender, but you have to admit his defensive floor is probably higher than IT's is, right?

Since Kyrie was a worse defender, no, his floor isn't lower.

So defense is a completely individual driven dynamic and has nothing to do with the team surrounding the player.  Got it.

I'm pretty sure Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart could play top notch defense in a box with a fox with a goat on a boat on a train in the rain with a mouse in a house here or there or anywhere.

[CelticsElite]

How many stars even play defense? Harden doesn't and he was basically the league  mvp. Wiggins and towns don't play defense and they play for thibs. The next version of the nba might be focused more on high scoring  and less on defense. That might make a lot of people uncomfortable

[Roy H.]

How exactly do these stats stack up in comparison to the team defense?  I am not saying that Kyrie wasn't a bad defender, only that he was a bad defender on a bad defensive team that didn't give a care about defense.  IT was a bad defender on a good defensive team that did care about defense.

I never expect Kyrie to be a top tier defender, but you have to admit his defensive floor is probably higher than IT's is, right?

Since Kyrie was a worse defender, no, his floor isn't lower.

So defense is a completely individual driven dynamic and has nothing to do with the team surrounding the player.  Got it.

A lot of it is individual, at least when looking at FG% allowed. If it was all team based, you'd expect all the Cavaliers to have poor defensive stats. They didn't.

Kyrie was exceptionally bad at defense last year.   When you're talking "worst starting PG defense", that's on the individual and not the team.

[18isGREATERthan72]

How exactly do these stats stack up in comparison to the team defense?  I am not saying that Kyrie wasn't a bad defender, only that he was a bad defender on a bad defensive team that didn't give a care about defense.  IT was a bad defender on a good defensive team that did care about defense.

I never expect Kyrie to be a top tier defender, but you have to admit his defensive floor is probably higher than IT's is, right?

Since Kyrie was a worse defender, no, his floor isn't lower.

So defense is a completely individual driven dynamic and has nothing to do with the team surrounding the player.  Got it.

I'm pretty sure Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart could play top notch defense in a box with a fox with a goat on a boat on a train in the rain with a mouse in a house here or there or anywhere.

Yes, you're also talking about two of the best defenders in the entire league.  We're not talking about top tier defenders, we're talking about bottom of the barrel defenders.

I don't know how people can't understand that the Cavs as a team were awful on defense, and the Celtics were not.

IT had two terrific Guard defenders next to him, and an above average rim protector in Horford.  Kyrie didn't have either of those things.  I'm not saying Kyrie is going to be an AB or Smart level defender, but IT will never be a better defender than he was last year, and he was awful.  Kyrie is 25 and played on a team that didn't care at all about defense.

[droopdog7]

Defense is mostly want and culture.  Kyrie has the tools to be a good defender if he focuses and is on a team that cares.  IT on the other hand has real physical concerns that won't change.

[tazzmaniac]

That is why I'm still iffy on the trade: Kyrie needs to be a legit top 2 MVP candidate in order to justify the package.

I disagree, I think the Nets pick simply has to land outside the top 5-7 picks. If we weren't going to resign IT which seems obvious, then 2 role players and a tier 2 prospect for an Olympian closer on an NBA champ who won all star MVP at age 21 (!) is a pretty [dang] good trade for us.

Except we traded with our chief rival who was coming apart at the seams.  If IT and Crowder work out well this season, Lebron may well decide to stay.  We could end up looking up at the Cavs for the  next 3 or 4 seasons. 

[tazzmaniac]

Defense is mostly want and culture.  Kyrie has the tools to be a good defender if he focuses and is on a team that cares.  IT on the other hand has real physical concerns that won't change.

So Kyrie could have been a good defender but he just didn't want to?  That wouldn't say much about his character especially since he was on a contender.