No need to trade one of Smart/Crowder/Bradley in order to sign Hayward

[kozlodoev]

No need to trade one of Smart/Crowder/Bradley.

Maybe not, but someone has to start at PF, and you only need that many wings.

Trade Crowder. A whiner whose defense and effort took a step back this season, but who still has value because of being locked in a contract that he signed as a 20-mpg player off the bench.

[keevsnick]

I think you have to have 12 and only then add Hayward, so it would be 98560+815
99375... Slightly above

Precisely. The roster hold for that 12th spot comes before adding Heyward, meaning the Celtics after dumping Rozier and Jackson and cutting everybody else with non guarantee are still 270K short of the max. If Hayward signs for max, as has been reported, somebody with a higher salary than rozier needs to go. That means Smart, Bradley or Crowder most likely along with keeping rozier.

Τhat's not how it works.

According to Roy H. and saltlover, just add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max.

Are we still under the cap? If so, we're fine.

Nope, that's exactly how it works. That's why the 2 million drop in the cap was so big. It costs us a rotation player.

[Jvalin]

No need to trade one of Smart/Crowder/Bradley. All we have to do in order to create max cap space is :

- dump Rozier + Jackson for future pick(s)/salary relief
- stash Yabu


According to Shams Charania of The Vertical, the league set the salary cap for the upcoming campaign at $99,093,000.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2719227-nba-reportedly-sets-2017-18-salary-cap-at-99093000


$99,093,000 x 30% = $29,727,900 (Hayward's max)

1. Hayward $29,727,900
2. Horford $27,734,405
3. Bradley $8,808,989
4. Crowder $6,796,117
5. Thomas $6,261,394
6. Tatum $5,645,400
7. Brown $4,956,480
8. Smart $4,538,019
9. Zizic $1,645,200
10. rookie minimum $815,615
11. rookie minimum $815,615
12. rookie minimum $815,615

Total $98,560,749

You're missing a rookie minimum, unfortunately.  You have to have 12 players under contract, cap holds, and minimum roster charges BEFORE you sign Hayward, not including him.  It's a nuance that doesn't usually matter in our discussions, but today it's the difference in being $300k short.

I had the exact same conversation with Roy H. about a month ago

The way I understand it, the cap charge cannot disappear unless a contract has been signed. No doubting you guys, but have you read somewhere that it works the other way around?

Yes, I'm sure.

To simplify it, just add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max.

Are we still under the cap? If so, we're fine.

Which is the correct way after all? I was under the impression you and Roy H. had the same point of view on this one.

[saltlover]

No need to trade one of Smart/Crowder/Bradley. All we have to do in order to create max cap space is :

- dump Rozier + Jackson for future pick(s)/salary relief
- stash Yabu


According to Shams Charania of The Vertical, the league set the salary cap for the upcoming campaign at $99,093,000.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2719227-nba-reportedly-sets-2017-18-salary-cap-at-99093000


$99,093,000 x 30% = $29,727,900 (Hayward's max)

1. Hayward $29,727,900
2. Horford $27,734,405
3. Bradley $8,808,989
4. Crowder $6,796,117
5. Thomas $6,261,394
6. Tatum $5,645,400
7. Brown $4,956,480
8. Smart $4,538,019
9. Zizic $1,645,200
10. rookie minimum $815,615
11. rookie minimum $815,615
12. rookie minimum $815,615

Total $98,560,749

You're missing a rookie minimum, unfortunately.  You have to have 12 players under contract, cap holds, and minimum roster charges BEFORE you sign Hayward, not including him.  It's a nuance that doesn't usually matter in our discussions, but today it's the difference in being $300k short.

I had the exact same conversation with Roy H. about a month ago

The way I understand it, the cap charge cannot disappear unless a contract has been signed. No doubting you guys, but have you read somewhere that it works the other way around?

Yes, I'm sure.

To simplify it, just add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max.

Are we still under the cap? If so, we're fine.

Which is the correct way after all? I was under the impression you and Roy H. had the same point of view on this one.

From Larry Coon, question 13, footnote 5:

Since teams are required to have at least 13 players on their rosters (see question number 79), the roster charge reserves a minimum amount of cap space to sign 13 players. For example, if a team has 11 players on its roster, the roster charge reserves cap space to sign the team's 13th player, and the remainder can be used to sign the 12th player.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

[timpiker]

Everywhere I've read says at least 1 of Smart/Crowder/Bradley has to go

[hodgy03038]

I do not understand how GSW who have all the players and big contracts can sign guys like Casspi for the end of bench and still have a slot to try to get a Jamal Crawford or Swaggy P.

Do we have the same slots available? What is it called a mid level exception for over a 5 million dollar contract? I just don't understand how we are scraping around trying to get rid of a couple million dollar salary to make Hayward fit yet GSW can continually sign free agents.

[saltlover]

I do not understand how GSW who have all the players and big contracts can sign guys like Casspi for the end of bench and still have a slot to try to get a Jamal Crawford or Swaggy P.

Do we have the same slots available? What is it called a mid level exception for over a 5 million dollar contract? I just don't understand how we are scraping around trying to get rid of a couple million dollar salary to make Hayward fit yet GSW can continually sign free agents.

We are in the same situation Golden State was last year, where they used cap room for Durant, the room exception for Zaza, and filled out the rest of the roster with minimum salaries.  This year they did not use cap room, and instead used Bird rights to resign players and have the taxpayer mid-level to sign someone for more than the room.

Next year we will be where Golden State is this year in terms of available options.

[CelticSooner]

I do not understand how GSW who have all the players and big contracts can sign guys like Casspi for the end of bench and still have a slot to try to get a Jamal Crawford or Swaggy P.

Do we have the same slots available? What is it called a mid level exception for over a 5 million dollar contract? I just don't understand how we are scraping around trying to get rid of a couple million dollar salary to make Hayward fit yet GSW can continually sign free agents.

Because everyone is looking up to GS who are in the process of winning titles and racking up a high luxury tax bill.

[Jvalin]

You're missing a rookie minimum, unfortunately.  You have to have 12 players under contract, cap holds, and minimum roster charges BEFORE you sign Hayward, not including him.  It's a nuance that doesn't usually matter in our discussions, but today it's the difference in being $300k short.

I had the exact same conversation with Roy H. about a month ago

The way I understand it, the cap charge cannot disappear unless a contract has been signed. No doubting you guys, but have you read somewhere that it works the other way around?

Yes, I'm sure.

To simplify it, just add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max.

Are we still under the cap? If so, we're fine.

Which is the correct way after all? I was under the impression you and Roy H. had the same point of view on this one.

From Larry Coon, question 13, footnote 5:

Since teams are required to have at least 13 players on their rosters (see question number 79), the roster charge reserves a minimum amount of cap space to sign 13 players. For example, if a team has 11 players on its roster, the roster charge reserves cap space to sign the team's 13th player, and the remainder can be used to sign the 12th player.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

Well, I guess you are right. Having said that I'm still not 100% sure if that's how it works. For instance, see questions 79, 13 and 41. No doubting you. Just trying to figure out how the whole thing works.

6/30/2017: New version for the 2017 CBA.

79. What roster size limits exist? What is the Inactive List? What is Injured Reserve? Do any other such lists exist?

Normally an NBA team can have a maximum of 15 players on its roster during a season (and up to 201 during the offseason, starting on the day after the team's season ends). A team normally has 12 or 13 players on its Active List, who are eligible to play in games, and can have as few as 11 for up to two weeks at a time. Any remaining players must be on the team's Inactive List, and are ineligible to play in games. Teams temporarily can have four players on their Inactive List (bringing their roster size to 16) with league approval in the event of a hardship2.

13. Exactly what is included when computing total team salaries? What is cap room? What is a cap hold?

(...) A cap hold called an "incomplete roster charge" if the team has fewer than 12 players (players under contract, free agents included in team salary, players given offer sheets, and first round draft picks). This charge is equal to the rookie minimum salary for each player fewer than 12. For example, if there are 11 players included in team salary, then an amount equal to the rookie minimum salary is added to the team salary5; if the roster is completely empty, then 12 times the rookie minimum salary is added to the team salary. This charge only applies during the offseason. (...)

41. Let's say a team arranges for all of its players to become free agents at the same time. If they renounce everybody, do they then have a team salary of $0 and a full cap under which to work?

No. There are lots of things that are included in team salary besides active contracts -- see question number 13 for a full list. Note especially that there is a roster charge when a team has fewer than 12 players under contract, free agents included in team salary, players given offer sheets, and first round draft picks -- so even if a team has no contracts and renounces all its free agents, exceptions and draft picks, it still will have a non-zero team salary.

[saltlover]

No need to trade one of Smart/Crowder/Bradley. All we have to do in order to create max cap space is :

- dump Rozier + Jackson for future pick(s)/salary relief
- stash Yabu


According to Shams Charania of The Vertical, the league set the salary cap for the upcoming campaign at $99,093,000.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2719227-nba-reportedly-sets-2017-18-salary-cap-at-99093000


$99,093,000 x 30% = $29,727,900 (Hayward's max)

1. Hayward $29,727,900
2. Horford $27,734,405
3. Bradley $8,808,989
4. Crowder $6,796,117
5. Thomas $6,261,394
6. Tatum $5,645,400
7. Brown $4,956,480
8. Smart $4,538,019
9. Zizic $1,645,200
10. rookie minimum $815,615
11. rookie minimum $815,615
12. rookie minimum $815,615

Total $98,560,749

You're missing a rookie minimum, unfortunately.  You have to have 12 players under contract, cap holds, and minimum roster charges BEFORE you sign Hayward, not including him.  It's a nuance that doesn't usually matter in our discussions, but today it's the difference in being $300k short.

I had the exact same conversation with Roy H. about a month ago

The way I understand it, the cap charge cannot disappear unless a contract has been signed. No doubting you guys, but have you read somewhere that it works the other way around?

Yes, I'm sure.

To simplify it, just add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max.

Are we still under the cap? If so, we're fine.

Which is the correct way after all? I was under the impression you and Roy H. had the same point of view on this one.

From Larry Coon, question 13, footnote 5:

Since teams are required to have at least 13 players on their rosters (see question number 79), the roster charge reserves a minimum amount of cap space to sign 13 players. For example, if a team has 11 players on its roster, the roster charge reserves cap space to sign the team's 13th player, and the remainder can be used to sign the 12th player.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

Well, I guess you are right. Having said that I'm still not 100% sure if that's how it works. For instance, see questions 79, 13 and 41. No doubting you. Just trying to figure out how the whole thing works.

6/30/2017: New version for the 2017 CBA.

79. What roster size limits exist? What is the Inactive List? What is Injured Reserve? Do any other such lists exist?

Normally an NBA team can have a maximum of 15 players on its roster during a season (and up to 201 during the offseason, starting on the day after the team's season ends). A team normally has 12 or 13 players on its Active List, who are eligible to play in games, and can have as few as 11 for up to two weeks at a time. Any remaining players must be on the team's Inactive List, and are ineligible to play in games. Teams temporarily can have four players on their Inactive List (bringing their roster size to 16) with league approval in the event of a hardship2.

13. Exactly what is included when computing total team salaries? What is cap room? What is a cap hold?

(...) A cap hold called an "incomplete roster charge" if the team has fewer than 12 players (players under contract, free agents included in team salary, players given offer sheets, and first round draft picks). This charge is equal to the rookie minimum salary for each player fewer than 12. For example, if there are 11 players included in team salary, then an amount equal to the rookie minimum salary is added to the team salary5; if the roster is completely empty, then 12 times the rookie minimum salary is added to the team salary. This charge only applies during the offseason. (...)


41. Let's say a team arranges for all of its players to become free agents at the same time. If they renounce everybody, do they then have a team salary of $0 and a full cap under which to work?

No. There are lots of things that are included in team salary besides active contracts -- see question number 13 for a full list. Note especially that there is a roster charge when a team has fewer than 12 players under contract, free agents included in team salary, players given offer sheets, and first round draft picks -- so even if a team has no contracts and renounces all its free agents, exceptions and draft picks, it still will have a non-zero team salary.

I agree that it's confusing, and it took me quite some time to figure it out over the years, but footnote 5 is very explicit in explaining this exact situation.

[Londongreen]

Why is Tatum being paid more than Jaylen? Aren't they both No.3 overall picks? Or did Tatum sign for more?

[Jvalin]

I agree that it's confusing, and it took me quite some time to figure it out over the years, but footnote 5 is very explicit in explaining this exact situation.

Alright then. Glad you helped me figure this out. TP!

1. Horford $27,734,405
2. Bradley $8,808,989
3. Crowder $6,796,117
4. Thomas $6,261,394
5. Tatum $5,645,400
6. Brown $4,956,480
7. Smart $4,538,019
8. Zizic $1,645,200
9. rookie minimum $815,615
10. rookie minimum $815,615
11. rookie minimum $815,615
12. rookie minimum $815,615

Total : $69,648,464

$99,093,000 - $69,648,464 = $29,444,536

That's $283,364 short of Hayward's max ($29,727,900).

Having said all that, since yesterday there have been rumors that Hayward may be willing to sign for less than the max. If that's the case, perhaps offering him $283,364 short of his max isn't a big deal after all. Wouldn't bet on that, but wouldn't rule it out either.

Why is Tatum being paid more than Jaylen? Aren't they both No.3 overall picks? Or did Tatum sign for more?

They both signed for 120% of the rookie scale. Thing is, the rookie wage scale changes every season. Here is the rookie scale for the 2017-2018 season.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale/2018

[saltlover]

Why is Tatum being paid more than Jaylen? Aren't they both No.3 overall picks? Or did Tatum sign for more?

The new CBA raised the salaries of draft picks.  But don't worry, the CBA also bumped up the salaries of players already on rookie deals, but the NBA pays that extra amount, not the teams, so it doesn't negatively affect the Celtics.

[kozlodoev]

I agree that it's confusing, and it took me quite some time to figure it out over the years, but footnote 5 is very explicit in explaining this exact situation.

Alright then. Glad you helped me figure this out. TP!

1. Horford $27,734,405
2. Bradley $8,808,989
3. Crowder $6,796,117
4. Thomas $6,261,394
5. Tatum $5,645,400
6. Brown $4,956,480
7. Smart $4,538,019
8. Zizic $1,645,200
9. rookie minimum $815,615
10. rookie minimum $815,615
11. rookie minimum $815,615
12. rookie minimum $815,615

Total : $69,648,464

$99,093,000 - $69,648,464 = $29,444,536

That's $283,364 short of Hayward's max ($29,727,900).

Having said all that, since yesterday there have been rumors that Hayward may be willing to sign for less than the max. If that's the case, perhaps offering him $283,364 short of his max isn't a big deal after all. Wouldn't bet on that, but wouldn't rule it out either.

Didn't the team also sign Theis, who was going to be the PF of next year's team and all that?

[Jvalin]

I agree that it's confusing, and it took me quite some time to figure it out over the years, but footnote 5 is very explicit in explaining this exact situation.

Alright then. Glad you helped me figure this out. TP!

1. Horford $27,734,405
2. Bradley $8,808,989
3. Crowder $6,796,117
4. Thomas $6,261,394
5. Tatum $5,645,400
6. Brown $4,956,480
7. Smart $4,538,019
8. Zizic $1,645,200
9. rookie minimum $815,615
10. rookie minimum $815,615
11. rookie minimum $815,615
12. rookie minimum $815,615

Total : $69,648,464

$99,093,000 - $69,648,464 = $29,444,536

That's $283,364 short of Hayward's max ($29,727,900).

Having said all that, since yesterday there have been rumors that Hayward may be willing to sign for less than the max. If that's the case, perhaps offering him $283,364 short of his max isn't a big deal after all. Wouldn't bet on that, but wouldn't rule it out either.

Didn't the team also sign Theis, who was going to be the PF of next year's team and all that?

We haven't signed him yet. In all likelihood, Theis is gonna sign for the rookie minimum (I guess there is a chance we give him the room exception, but that seems unlikely). We can sign Hayward first and then use the minimum salary exception to sign Theis/other minimum guys. Since Theis is a rookie we can do it the other way around too, doesn't really matter (sign Theis first, then sign Hayward).