Jaylen and Tatum are ready now, Bye bye Jae + AB?

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I somewhat agree with the OP.  I want Brown and Tatum to get serious minutes this season.  I don't however feel that they should be handed the minutes by us dealing AB and Crowder prematurely.  If one or both of them gets moved for a big that is going to balance our roster better then great, they will get more time. 

But if Hayward doesn't pick boston, and there aren't trades that make sense I feel that both Brown and Tatum can get big minutes off the bench and do the slow / long term development that has really helped Jaylen last year. 

If Hayward does come to boston, then we do have a bit of a pickle, and unfortunately everyone in the nba will know it and it will be hard to get good value for AB and Crowder either way.

[CelticsElite]

No.  But in 2 years, IT-Brown-Hayward-Tatum-Horford could be a lethal grouping.

Def don't see him as PF

he can absolutely be a small ball stretch PF. The new NBA doesn't have any 7 foot KG or Chris bosh type power forwards.

[Beat LA]

Ok lets calm down here.

Both guys killed it in their first summer league games.  That's nothing short of what I would expect for a pair of top 3 draft picks playing against a bunch of guys, 70%-80% of whom will probably never make an NBA roster.   

It's an indication that both guys should be capable of being PRODUCTIVE for us next season.  It's certainly not an indication that both guys are going to be two-way starting caliber guys capable of helping to carry the team.

I say lets temper our expectations for the time being - I think both are worthy of quality minutes (20-25) and I think that both will be starting for us in 2-3 years.

I think you'd be crazy to ditch Jae and AB thinking these guys are taking over for them right now.

Can't we just ditch them anyway, lol?

[BostonClamCrowdah]

Is this a forum for middle schoolers or what?

ONE summer league game and you're thinking MJ/Pippen

[crimson_stallion]

No.  But in 2 years, IT-Brown-Hayward-Tatum-Horford could be a lethal grouping.

In 2 years Horford will be in the last year of his deal, will be 33-34, and (given his decline rate over the past 3-4 years) will likely be producing at 6th man level at best.

Thomas will be 30-31 years old and (as a 5'10" PG who is highly dependent on explosiveness) will probably already be showing signs of decline.

This is why I was infuriated that Danny didn't make a move for one of Cousins / Butler / George. We could have had a legit shot at contending for a title while Horford and IT are still with in their relative primes - which seems like a waste to not make use of.

[OldSchoolDude]

I get it, its just SL...

These guys are ready to get big mins next year . Jaylen 25-30, Tatum- 20-25. They give us so much length and athleticism on the wing.

If we land Hayward to take the pressure off IT and give us another go to scorer, look out

If Hayward is on the roster, Jae is obviously expendable, and we can likely only keep 2 out of IT, Smart and AB next year Smart isn't going to command the money AB will, so you should move him now.

We definitely need big man help, AB and Jae's salary add up to about 15 mil. Add some draft picks to that(no brk or LA/sac picks) and you should be able to add a legitimate starting PF to complement Horford.

Also Tatum could play a good amount of mins at PF

IT.         Rosier
Jaylen.   Smart
Hayward.  Tatum
Trade.         Theis 
Horford.     Zicic

If we can add a ring chasing big man to the bench, this is a possible 60 win team.

Brk and LA possible top 5 picks coming....

OK, which PF would you trade for?  You put a lot of work into the post, complete the thought.

Move Horford to PF and trade for Nikola Vučević.

[PhoSita]

I'd say at least one of them ought to be gone, ideally in exchange for somebody who can play capable minutes at the 4/5.

[OldSchoolDude]

I get it, its just SL...

Great, then stop right there. I'll never understand the hate AB and Jae get. If you take them out right now and replace them with Brown and Tatum we win at least 5 less games next year. And if I follow the logic that everyone thinks AB and JC suck then we aren't trading them for anything significant.

Lets do it!   Thats the #2 or 3 seed with Tatum and Brown getting legit playing time, thats a no brainer.  Really I'd take the 5th or 6th seed with Brown and Tatum getting 30 minutes a game.  So we lose to Cleveland in the second round instead of the ECF, the player development would be worth it.

[Greyman]

I think Tatum and Brown develop into better players with AB and Jae around. The team doesn't need to rush anything. I expect Brown improves again next season and pushes for more minutes, when he is ready for them. Who knows, he may even push to start and will definitely if the team has injuries. Tatum has shown he has real game, given time he can be a really talented NBA player. I doubt he is up to big minutes yet.

[crimson_stallion]

I get it, its just SL...

These guys are ready to get big mins next year . Jaylen 25-30, Tatum- 20-25. They give us so much length and athleticism on the wing.

If we land Hayward to take the pressure off IT and give us another go to scorer, look out

If Hayward is on the roster, Jae is obviously expendable, and we can likely only keep 2 out of IT, Smart and AB next year Smart isn't going to command the money AB will, so you should move him now.

We definitely need big man help, AB and Jae's salary add up to about 15 mil. Add some draft picks to that(no brk or LA/sac picks) and you should be able to add a legitimate starting PF to complement Horford.

Also Tatum could play a good amount of mins at PF

IT.         Rosier
Jaylen.   Smart
Hayward.  Tatum
Trade.         Theis 
Horford.     Zicic

If we can add a ring chasing big man to the bench, this is a possible 60 win team.

Brk and LA possible top 5 picks coming....

OK, which PF would you trade for?  You put a lot of work into the post, complete the thought.

Move Horford to PF and trade for Nikola Vučević.

I don't hate the idea.

Vucevic is only on $12.2M, and 'if' we get Hayward in free agency, we will have a pretty major logjam at the SF spot (Crowder, Hayward, Brown, Crowder) with not enough minutes to go around. 

According to trade machine a nice simple package of Bradley + Mickey (total $10.2m) would be enough outgoing salary to bring back Vucevic. 

Assuming Hayward can start at the SG spot, that gives us:

Thomas
Hayward
Crowder
Horford
Vucevic
--
Rozier
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Zizic

I'm pretty cool with that.  Even if it takes a late first rounder or a second rounder thrown in (to make up for the fact that Bradley only has 1 year on his deal).

As a bonus it helps us move away from the issue of worrying about trying to extend Bradley after this coming season.

I'd be equally happy pulling a similar deal for Greg Monroe, who I've heard the Bucks are shopping.

[CelticsElite]

Vucevic is trash. Moving horford to pf to bring a mediocre center like vucevic is a terrible decision.

[tarheelsxxiii]

No.  But in 2 years, IT-Brown-Hayward-Tatum-Horford could be a lethal grouping.

In 2 years Horford will be in the last year of his deal, will be 33-34, and (given his decline rate over the past 3-4 years) will likely be producing at 6th man level at best.

Thomas will be 30-31 years old and (as a 5'10" PG who is highly dependent on explosiveness) will probably already be showing signs of decline.

This is why I was infuriated that Danny didn't make a move for one of Cousins / Butler / George. We could have had a legit shot at contending for a title while Horford and IT are still with in their relative primes - which seems like a waste to not make use of.

I'm disappointed Danny didn't snag one of Butler/PG too.  But you're selling IT and Horford short... both are extremely heady players that will still be playing at a high level in 2 years.  Thomas has an incredible understanding of the game and is great at drawing contact, and Horford is a smart big that doesn't rely on an ounce of athleticism to be effective.  They don't need to be the horses, at that stage, but the brains and leaders of the group.  I love the potential.

[crimson_stallion]

Vucevic is trash. Moving horford to pf to bring a mediocre center like vucevic is a terrible decision.

Considering that we need to let go of Amir, Olynyk, Jerebko and Zeller in order to clear cap room to sign Hayward, I would like to ask you - what do you propose is a better idea?

Would you rather play Gordon Hayward (6'8" wingspan, 5 rebounds a game) or Crowder (6'6", 6'9", 5 RPG wingspan) at the PF spot instead?  Or do you propose we start the rookie Jason Tatum at PF?  Or perhaps Zizic at center?

Do you think these would make us more competitive when we go up against the likes of Washington and Cleveland - both of whom destroyed us on the boards in the playoffs this year?

The way I see it we need a starting caliber big to play alongside Horford if we want any hope of improving over last year.  We can't sign one with cap space (assuming we sign Hayward) which means our only means of acquiring one is via a trade.  We'd be over the cap, so we can't really trade for anybody who is making more then about $12m - $13m.   That doesn't leave us with a  lot of options beyond Vucevic and Monroe.

Lets put some things into perspective. 

Last year the combined production of our frontcourt (Horford + Amir) was 27.2 points, 15.8 rebounds and 8.6 assists per 36 minutes.

If we replaced Amir's production with Vucevic's production rom last year then the combined production of Horford + Vucevic would be 33.8 points, 20.6 rebounds and 9 assists per 36 minutes.

That's a theoretical 6.6 points, 4.8 rebounds and 0.4 assists that you are adding. 

That rebound differential alone would make a dramatic upgrade for Boston, given how much they got killed by guys like Tristan Thompson, Marcin Gortat and Robin Lopez in the playoffs.

Then add to that the fact that Vucevic is actually a legit offensive threat, so teams cannot completely ignore him on offense the way they did with Amir when he was on the court.  Now instead of allowing opponents to effectively play 5 on 4 every time we have the ball, you are forcing them to play 5 on 5.

And the best part is that we wouldn't lose anything really by doing this.  Yes we would lose Bradley's production, but that would be replaced (and then some) by the addition of Hayward - the offensive gains from adding Hayward (plus his size) would more than make up for the defensive ability we'd be giving up by losing Bradley.

So the key here is that there are two options:
1. Add Vucevic and become BETTER then we were last season or
2. Don't trade for Vucevic and become WORSE than we were last year due to no starting big

Your call. 

I would certainly be interested to see how Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson deal with a Horford/Vucevic duo up front, because there is no way in hell Tristan Thompson can defend Vucevic, nor would he be able to dominate him on the boards the way he did with our bigs last season.

[crimson_stallion]

No.  But in 2 years, IT-Brown-Hayward-Tatum-Horford could be a lethal grouping.

In 2 years Horford will be in the last year of his deal, will be 33-34, and (given his decline rate over the past 3-4 years) will likely be producing at 6th man level at best.

Thomas will be 30-31 years old and (as a 5'10" PG who is highly dependent on explosiveness) will probably already be showing signs of decline.

This is why I was infuriated that Danny didn't make a move for one of Cousins / Butler / George. We could have had a legit shot at contending for a title while Horford and IT are still with in their relative primes - which seems like a waste to not make use of.

I'm disappointed Danny didn't snag one of Butler/PG too.  But you're selling IT and Horford short... both are extremely heady players that will still be playing at a high level in 2 years.  Thomas has an incredible understanding of the game and is great at drawing contact, and Horford is a smart big that doesn't rely on an ounce of athleticism to be effective.  They don't need to be the horses, at that stage, but the brains and leaders of the group.  I love the potential.

I think you are overselling them.

I love Thomas - his heart and his warrior's mentality are inspiring, and regardless of his defensive limitations I wouldn't want to see him go in any move.  But he's still 5'10" at best, and the only time he is a net positive for this team is when he's putting up 27 - 30 PPG scoring nights.  If he scores any less then that on any given night then he is pretty much a liability on the floor because his defense is THAT big of a negative...so he has to score those 27-30 points just to overcome that.

When he reaches 30-31 I'm sure he will lose a bit of a step.  I don't doubt that he'll still be very effective as a scorer and will probably still be putting up 22 - 24 PPG, but when he's putting up those numbers it's not enough to overcome his defensive limitations and he becomes a liability.  As he gets older his explosiveness will inevitably fade, and that's only going to hinder his defensive ability even more then it already is. 

As we are now, teams are already constantly looking for ways to take advantage of that mismatch - posting him up with bigger guards, forcing switches against bigger guys who can shoot over him, etc.  There were times where Cleveland and Washington were doing that play after play and scoring every time, and there was nothing we could do about it other then hoping and praying that we could keep applying equal amounts of pressure on the other end.

As for Horford, he's already a shadow of his former self.  The super athletic beast who used to dominate the paint on both ends of the court has now faded into a significantly slower, significantly softer guy who on most nights is perfectly happy standing out on the perimeter tossing up threes and midrange jumpers all day long. His offensive production has dropped off, his offensive efficiency has dropped off, his rebounding has dropped off, and defensively (while still solid) he is far from the anchor he once was.  This is at 31, and his game has already dropped off the way I would expect from a guy who is 33 or 34 years old.  He's going down, and he's going down hard - and it's only a matter of time before that gradual drop-off becomes a hard drop off a cliff of mediocrity.  I assure you, 2 years from now Horford's production is going to drop off so heavily that you'll be wishing we had Kelly Olynyk instead.  It's not a knock on Horford - it's just a fact of like.  Undersized Power Forwards just don't age that well in this league. 

I'm not wishing for this to happen, but it's going to.  Living in denial isn't going to help Boston in any way - the only way to deal with the inevitable truth is to acknowledge it and prepare for it. 

[celtics2030]

No.  But in 2 years, IT-Brown-Hayward-Tatum-Horford could be a lethal grouping.

In 2 years Horford will be in the last year of his deal, will be 33-34, and (given his decline rate over the past 3-4 years) will likely be producing at 6th man level at best.

Thomas will be 30-31 years old and (as a 5'10" PG who is highly dependent on explosiveness) will probably already be showing signs of decline.

This is why I was infuriated that Danny didn't make a move for one of Cousins / Butler / George. We could have had a legit shot at contending for a title while Horford and IT are still with in their relative primes - which seems like a waste to not make use of.

I'm disappointed Danny didn't snag one of Butler/PG too.  But you're selling IT and Horford short... both are extremely heady players that will still be playing at a high level in 2 years.  Thomas has an incredible understanding of the game and is great at drawing contact, and Horford is a smart big that doesn't rely on an ounce of athleticism to be effective.  They don't need to be the horses, at that stage, but the brains and leaders of the group.  I love the potential.

I think you are overselling them.

I love Thomas - his heart and his warrior's mentality are inspiring, and regardless of his defensive limitations I wouldn't want to see him go in any move.  But he's still 5'10" at best, and the only time he is a net positive for this team is when he's putting up 27 - 30 PPG scoring nights.  If he scores any less then that on any given night then he is pretty much a liability on the floor because his defense is THAT big of a negative...so he has to score those 27-30 points just to overcome that.

When he reaches 30-31 I'm sure he will lose a bit of a step.  I don't doubt that he'll still be very effective as a scorer and will probably still be putting up 22 - 24 PPG, but when he's putting up those numbers it's not enough to overcome his defensive limitations and he becomes a liability.  As he gets older his explosiveness will inevitably fade, and that's only going to hinder his defensive ability even more then it already is. 

As we are now, teams are already constantly looking for ways to take advantage of that mismatch - posting him up with bigger guards, forcing switches against bigger guys who can shoot over him, etc.  There were times where Cleveland and Washington were doing that play after play and scoring every time, and there was nothing we could do about it other then hoping and praying that we could keep applying equal amounts of pressure on the other end.

As for Horford, he's already a shadow of his former self.  The super athletic beast who used to dominate the paint on both ends of the court has now faded into a significantly slower, significantly softer guy who on most nights is perfectly happy standing out on the perimeter tossing up threes and midrange jumpers all day long. His offensive production has dropped off, his offensive efficiency has dropped off, his rebounding has dropped off, and defensively (while still solid) he is far from the anchor he once was.  This is at 31, and his game has already dropped off the way I would expect from a guy who is 33 or 34 years old.  He's going down, and he's going down hard - and it's only a matter of time before that gradual drop-off becomes a hard drop off a cliff of mediocrity.  I assure you, 2 years from now Horford's production is going to drop off so heavily that you'll be wishing we had Kelly Olynyk instead.  It's not a knock on Horford - it's just a fact of like.  Undersized Power Forwards just don't age that well in this league. 

I'm not wishing for this to happen, but it's going to.  Living in denial isn't going to help Boston in any way - the only way to deal with the inevitable truth is to acknowledge it and prepare for it.

Lol at IT being 5'10 , even at best.

Hilarious to at Horford being a super atheltic beast. He was always this clumsy looking goofball that runs like has a diaper full of cra% , that is who he has always been. He barely jumps 1 inch off the ground on his jumper.