Is DA's Master Plan BOTH Hayward AND George?

[CELTICSofBOSTON]

I doubt it is possible.

Hypothetically, if we got Paul George.... would you prefer Gordon Hayward or Blake Griffin?

[KGBirdBias]

I think if Ainge trades out of the #1 spot, he's looking to get more flexibility to sign FAs.

[saltlover]

I don't understand why we can't have this team but GSW can keep a core of KD, Klay, Steph, Dray for the next 8-10 years (coming from JVG's quote of penciling the Warriors in the finals). Especially with KD and Steph both expiring this year (with Steph eligible for the super max) and Klay expiring the year after.

If KD is willing take a discount to win, wouldn't a guy like IT or even PG be amenable to taking a small discount too? If we can land PG, would Hayward be willing to take a minor discount too?

Top stars like LeBron and KD have already made a lot of money in their careers. It doesn't mean they'd be willing to play for free, but at this point championships are more important to their legacy than a few extra million. They also make an enormous amount from endorsements which are bolstered with the publicity and legitimacy a title brings.

Secondary stars do not make as much from endorsements, so the benefits of a title are more personal, not financial. A huge part of their income is still coming from their salary playing basketball as opposed to being a celebrity pitchman.

IT has never had a big money deal and this is his last opportunity to get one. George has made big money but his endorsement money is nowhere near the Currys, Durants, and LeBrons of the world, partly from relative lack of team success, personality, and small market.

The other unfair thing is, once your organization has already won a title with a group of players, it is a lot easier to expect them to take a discount. The Spurs kept their great teams together with Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker all not taking the highest possible deal the market would bear. This is because of their great team culture but also because the organization had cachet, the trust from the players that they would spend the money wisely and put the team in the best position to win more titles. The Patriots do the same thing, to the consternation of other NFL teams. Brady is still a top 1-2 quarterback but is only making 14 million/year.

The Celtics really aren't in a position where they can expect players to trust them and take discounts. They are trying to sign stars in free agency to the max, which means some players (not Horford who Atlanta didn't offer full five years) are already taking a discount just to sign with you. Durant knew signing with GS that he would pretty much be guaranteed multiple title shots. Boston can't offer such certainty.

I agree with this. But what if, with an assembled superteam of our own, we lose to GSW in the Finals (aka we got past Lebron and the Cavs) next year. We still have BKN's top 3 2018 pick and Fultz and Jaylen develop impressively over the year. Would IT insist on something like a 30m max and strap the team or couldnt he be convinced to take something like 23 to run it back against the Dubs? Couldn't PG be convinced to take 25 too?

Well, the thing about the cap is that you cannot add new players (besides minimum deals, exceptions, etc.) once you have exceeded it. However, you are free to re-sign whomever is already on the roster to deals that in excess of the cap. So really what the Celtics are trying to do is squeeze in one more max player before they go over the cap, after which their flexibility is more limited.

That means if George and Thomas take a discount next year, they wouldn't be helping the Celtics add players because the team would already be over the cap. It would only make a difference in the potential luxury tax payments the team may have to make. To put it simply, asking them to take a pay cut next season would save the team money but not necessarily give them much benefit in keeping the team together or signing new players.

For example, Durant is going to take a slight pay cut this year because it will allow GS to keep some bench players. If Durant signed for the absolute most he could get, GS would not be allowed to go over the cap to sign guys like Iguodala and Livingston. Their rights would be renounced and they'd be UFA. Then they could only be re-signed by GS if they sign for the MLE or something like that. This is an example of a pay cut having a very direct, clear benefit to the team. Asking Thomas and George to take a pay cut next season wouldn't have such an obvious benefit, it would just be saving the owners some money.

I'm no cap expert but wouldn't GSW have Bird Rights to both Iggy and Livingston? And then the rest of that team is composed of minimum guys anyway.

Their issue is they need cap room to sign Durant and they will struggle to get the required cap room without releasing both Iggy and Livingston's cap holds.  If they do that, then they lose Bird Rights.

They don't need cap room to sign KD.  Durant will opt out, sign a 1+1 deal with Non-Bird rights for $31.8 million, which enables them to not need cap space this summer, keeping at least one of Iggy and Livingston.  Then Durant can opt out again next year and sign a max deal with early Bird rights, which will allow for 8% raises instead of 5% raises.  The difference in raises will mostly (maybe even entirely, depending on the difference in cap levels over the next two years) make up for the roughly $3.5 million he'd leave on the table this summer.

So KD gets to look like a good guy by not getting the most he can this summer, helping to keep the team together, without really sacrificing long-term dollars, and the Warriors can keep their core together for two more years until Klay hits free agency.  Win-win-win.

[manl_lui]

hmm do you think

IT/Bradley/Hayward/George/Horford

is enough to beat CLE? Even if we can, can that team beat the Warriors

assuming we don't trade Bradley and Smart, we still have 2 of the best perimeter defense in the league so they can defend the 3

[nickagneta]

I could see where Ainge might want to add Butler and Hayward but not George and Hayward. If Danny and manage a Bradley/Crowder some first round non-Nets picks that gives the Celtics two years of a relatively cheap Butler and remives the need to extend Bradley.

Then next year, depending on Fultz' development, perhaps the team lets IT walk, extends Smart on the cheap and gives the team PG duties to Fultz in 2018-19 keeping the team in a good financial situation that year. Then the C's can give Butler his max after that 2018-19 season and the C's go forward with Brooklyn 2018 pick in his 2nd year, Fultz and Zizic in their 3rd year, Brown in his 4th year, Smart, Hayward, Butler, Horford.

I think thats a financially acceptable long term solution for winning now and down the road.

[gouki88]

I could see where Ainge might want to add Butler and Hayward but not George and Hayward. If Danny and manage a Bradley/Crowder some first round non-Nets picks that gives the Celtics two years of a relatively cheap Butler and remives the need to extend Bradley.

Then next year, depending on Fultz' development, perhaps the team lets IT walk, extends Smart on the cheap and gives the team PG duties to Fultz in 2018-19 keeping the team in a good financial situation that year. Then the C's can give Butler his max after that 2018-19 season and the C's go forward with Brooklyn 2018 pick in his 2nd year, Fultz and Zizic in their 3rd year, Brown in his 4th year, Smart, Hayward, Butler, Horford.

I think thats a financially acceptable long term solution for winning now and down the road.

That is a pretty awesome team.

Rolling out with:
Fultz/Smart
Butler/Brown/(?)
Hayward/Brown/Nader
Horford/(Could be Michael Porter Jr. instead of one of the big guys)
Ayton (or Bamba)/Zizic

That core is pretty deadly going forward.