Is DA's Master Plan BOTH Hayward AND George?

[csfansince60s]

I know that a lot of things have to go right for this to happen.

And I'm not really sure which acquisition has to come before the other, or if one has to necessarily precede the other.

An "in-place" George would certainly be a strengthening attraction for Hayward.

A committed Hayward could have George force the Pacers' hand by him unequivocally telling them he's gone next year, so get something for me now.

We could offer a S&T'd KO, Rozier, our firsts next year and in '19, the Memphis pick and the Clips pick and any 2nds that need be. We could also trade AB (that hurts me to say that) for a pick this year to give them also, if need be.

If the Pacers were rebuilding,  that's gotta be awfully enticing for them.

And for us, with a core of IT/Smart/Fultz/Hayward/George/Brown/Crowder is plenty young and talented for both now and later and would persuade George to stay next year. We also would have the BK '18. (I think we can get George without BK '18 or JB if he's told them he's gone.)

That leaves us with a line-up of:

IT/Smart/Jackson
Jaylen/Fultz
Hayward/Crowder/Nader
George/Yabs/Jerebko (vet min, or one of the exceptions)
Horford/Zizic

I think that team beats the Caves next year.

The problem would be, how long could we keep that group together $$$-wise? I think the luxury tax hit might be too burdensome for the organization.

One of IT/Hayward/George/Horford would probably have to go most likely.

Also a shout-out and TP to rondohondo for both his current thread on "Love for Paul George..." and his thread from May on the acquisition of both Hayward and George:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=91030.msg2313723#msg2313723

EDIT: Mannix discussed this at about the 45 min mark on the Ringer NBA Show:


https://theringer.com/ringer-nba-show-podcast-d4d316eb4ce

[Phantom255x]

Yeah I'd like to know the answer as well regarding the "how long can we keep that core" around.

I hear it really hurts out flexibility for the future and could cause us to go into a "premature win-now mode" which doesn't bode well with Golden State and Cleveland still reigning, and could cripple us in 3-4 years (forcing us into another rebuild of sorts).

[csfansince60s]

Yeah I'd like to know the answer as well regarding the "how long can we keep that core" around.

I hear it really hurts out flexibility for the future and could cause us to go into a "premature win-now mode" which doesn't bode well with Golden State and Cleveland still reigning, and could cripple us in 3-4 years (forcing us into another rebuild of sorts).

My cap knowledge is pretty weak. Saltover or any other capologists out there?

[jambr380]

Unfortunately, that team isn't really sustainable due to the contracts of George and IT being up next year (and both needing nice, new shiny max contracts).

It is conceivable to sign Hayward and then trade for George, but not the other way around. We would basically need to send AB and Crowder out in any deal. George makes $19.3M next year while AB/Crowder will make $15.5M. Throw in Rozier and you have a deal...although, Rozier may need to go out before signing Hayward so we can give him the 'full' max. Also,I assume Indy would want a BKN pick (which can also be used for salary matching. AB/#1 gets you pretty close).

If this is the route we are going, I would just prefer to trade for Butler and keep Fultz. He has two years left on his contract - so no worries on the cap...yet - and I think an AB/Crowder/Mem pick may eventually end up getting it done. That is probably just hopeful thinking, though.

[rondohondo]

Unfortunately, that team isn't really sustainable due to the contracts of George and IT being up next year (and both needing nice, new shiny max contracts).

It is conceivable to sign Hayward and then trade for George, but not the other way around. We would basically need to send AB and Crowder out in any deal. George makes $19.3M next year while AB/Crowder will make $15.5M. Throw in Rozier and you have a deal...although, Rozier may need to go out before signing Hayward so we can give him the 'full' max. Also,I assume Indy would want a BKN pick (which can also be used for salary matching. AB/#1 gets you pretty close).

If this is the route we are going, I would just prefer to trade for Butler and keep Fultz. He has two years left on his contract - so no worries on the cap...yet - and I think an AB/Crowder/Mem pick may eventually end up getting it done. That is probably just hopeful thinking, though.

Why do we need to re-sign IT if we have George and Hayward ? Along with Fultz, who is on a rookie contract, and is already a stud offensive player. I don't see how he could be anymore of a liability than IT on defense too, by year 3, I fully expect Fultz to be the better player, especially with the beating IT takes, and now injured hip.

Move crowder/AB and picks for George

Leaves us with

Fultz.   / Rosier
Jaylen.      /Smart
Hayward.  / Nadar
George.     / yabu
Horford.    Zicic

[csfansince60s]

Unfortunately, that team isn't really sustainable due to the contracts of George and IT being up next year (and both needing nice, new shiny max contracts).

It is conceivable to sign Hayward and then trade for George, but not the other way around. We would basically need to send AB and Crowder out in any deal. George makes $19.3M next year while AB/Crowder will make $15.5M. Throw in Rozier and you have a deal...although, Rozier may need to go out before signing Hayward so we can give him the 'full' max. Also,I assume Indy would want a BKN pick (which can also be used for salary matching. AB/#1 gets you pretty close).

If this is the route we are going, I would just prefer to trade for Butler and keep Fultz. He has two years left on his contract - so no worries on the cap...yet - and I think an AB/Crowder/Mem pick may eventually end up getting it done. That is probably just hopeful thinking, though.

Thanks, jamb...TP for the esoteric cap stuff/explanation.

Can't keep all those permutations in my head and project them forward very far...haha...getting old.

I agree that Indy would want one of the BKs, but think we have enough assets to get George, given his LA-bound cloud.

Also, how cap-wise would a KO S&T work? Is it workable? KO and Turner would be a pretty good front-court of the future for them.

[Sketch5]

Unfortunately, that team isn't really sustainable due to the contracts of George and IT being up next year (and both needing nice, new shiny max contracts).

It is conceivable to sign Hayward and then trade for George, but not the other way around. We would basically need to send AB and Crowder out in any deal. George makes $19.3M next year while AB/Crowder will make $15.5M. Throw in Rozier and you have a deal...although, Rozier may need to go out before signing Hayward so we can give him the 'full' max. Also,I assume Indy would want a BKN pick (which can also be used for salary matching. AB/#1 gets you pretty close).

If this is the route we are going, I would just prefer to trade for Butler and keep Fultz. He has two years left on his contract - so no worries on the cap...yet - and I think an AB/Crowder/Mem pick may eventually end up getting it done. That is probably just hopeful thinking, though.

Why do we need to re-sign IT if we have George and Hayward ? Along with Fultz, who is on a rookie contract, and is already a stud offensive player. I don't see how he could be anymore of a liability than IT on defense too, by year 3, I fully expect Fultz to be the better player, especially with the beating IT takes, and now injured hip.

Move crowder/AB and picks for a big man

Leaves us with

Fultz.   / Rosier
Jaylen.      /Smart
Hayward.  / Jae
George.     / (return for AB)
Horford.    Zicic

I doubt Fultz will be Championship starter ready this season. Kid JUST turned 19, and Stevens pointed out to him, has things to work on.

Plus IT and Fultz have a similar game, IT would be a great mentor. And in two years when IT's body wears thin from the abuse, Fultz can take over and IT will come off the bench for some quick scoring.

Plus Letting IT go, when he's a big reason Horford came over, and got to the ECF while hurt for over a month is complete disrespect.

That being said, hopefully he stays on a hometeam discount.

[csfansince60s]

Unfortunately, that team isn't really sustainable due to the contracts of George and IT being up next year (and both needing nice, new shiny max contracts).

It is conceivable to sign Hayward and then trade for George, but not the other way around. We would basically need to send AB and Crowder out in any deal. George makes $19.3M next year while AB/Crowder will make $15.5M. Throw in Rozier and you have a deal...although, Rozier may need to go out before signing Hayward so we can give him the 'full' max. Also,I assume Indy would want a BKN pick (which can also be used for salary matching. AB/#1 gets you pretty close).

If this is the route we are going, I would just prefer to trade for Butler and keep Fultz. He has two years left on his contract - so no worries on the cap...yet - and I think an AB/Crowder/Mem pick may eventually end up getting it done. That is probably just hopeful thinking, though.

Why do we need to re-sign IT if we have George and Hayward ? Along with Fultz, who is on a rookie contract, and is already a stud offensive player. I don't see how he could be anymore of a liability than IT on defense too, by year 3, I fully expect Fultz to be the better player, especially with the beating IT takes, and now injured hip.

Move crowder/AB and picks for George

Leaves us with

Fultz.   / Rosier
Jaylen.      /Smart
Hayward.  / Nadar
George.     / yabu
Horford.    Zicic

I agree, and thought IT might then be the odd-man-out. Just hard to say, plus parting with AB is the same. Really like those guys (my two favorite Cs), but in the end, it's all about the laundry, not the individual players.

[jambr380]

You don't need to re-sign IT, but I would see two problems:

First, part of Hayward signing here would be IT being on the roster. I have been told that it wouldn't be nice to 'fool' Hayward by signing him and then letting our biggest talent go.

Second, we get no value for IT. I suppose we could trade him at the deadline, but that would be dumb if we are 'going for it'.

I am also concerned about the picks that Indy would want. I have no desire to give up BKN picks for any non-Davis, Towns, or Giannis player. GSW is good, I don't think we have any chance to be better than this current version of them.

[jambr380]

Unfortunately, that team isn't really sustainable due to the contracts of George and IT being up next year (and both needing nice, new shiny max contracts).

It is conceivable to sign Hayward and then trade for George, but not the other way around. We would basically need to send AB and Crowder out in any deal. George makes $19.3M next year while AB/Crowder will make $15.5M. Throw in Rozier and you have a deal...although, Rozier may need to go out before signing Hayward so we can give him the 'full' max. Also,I assume Indy would want a BKN pick (which can also be used for salary matching. AB/#1 gets you pretty close).

If this is the route we are going, I would just prefer to trade for Butler and keep Fultz. He has two years left on his contract - so no worries on the cap...yet - and I think an AB/Crowder/Mem pick may eventually end up getting it done. That is probably just hopeful thinking, though.

Thanks, jamb...TP for the esoteric cap stuff/explanation.

Can't keep all those permutations in my head and project them forward very far...haha...getting old.

I agree that Indy would want one of the BKs, but think we have enough assets to get George, given his LA-bound cloud.

Also, how cap-wise would a KO S&T work? Is it workable? KO and Turner would be a pretty good front-court of the future for them.

TP back to you - I am just a salary cap poser, though, as I try to follow what the true experts around here say 

Unfortunately, if we are signing Hayward, a KO s&t would NOT work. Signing Hayward would require us to renounce everybody who is not guaranteed for next year and that includes KO. AB and Crowder is a really good start to a trade (I hate to lose Crowder due to his great contract). It just depends on which picks teams require with those two. BKN picks = no dice, as far as I'm concerned.

As far as future cap implications goes, Butler at least would give us one less year of astronomical salary. It is even possible Horford opts out the same year Butler's contract ends. Kevin Love is another option for the same reason, but I am not so sure how 'into' dealing Love Cleveland is.

[rondohondo]

You don't need to re-sign IT, but I would see two problems:

First, part of Hayward signing here would be IT being on the roster. I have been told that it wouldn't be nice to 'fool' Hayward by signing him and then letting our biggest talent go.

Second, we get no value for IT. I suppose we could trade him at the deadline, but that would be dumb if we are 'going for it'.

I am also concerned about the picks that Indy would want. I have no desire to give up BKN picks for any non-Davis, Towns, or Giannis player. GSW is good, I don't think we have any chance to be better than this current version of them.

Wouldn't trading IT for George make more sense than moving AB then?

I mean if we are just gonna let IT walk , why not move him for George, that is fair for us to keep the brk 18 and give them other picks instead.

So it would be IT, Jae, Mem pick, Bos 18,

Although AB would take a good chunk of cap space to Re-sign as well....

[csfansince60s]

Unfortunately, that team isn't really sustainable due to the contracts of George and IT being up next year (and both needing nice, new shiny max contracts).

It is conceivable to sign Hayward and then trade for George, but not the other way around. We would basically need to send AB and Crowder out in any deal. George makes $19.3M next year while AB/Crowder will make $15.5M. Throw in Rozier and you have a deal...although, Rozier may need to go out before signing Hayward so we can give him the 'full' max. Also,I assume Indy would want a BKN pick (which can also be used for salary matching. AB/#1 gets you pretty close).

If this is the route we are going, I would just prefer to trade for Butler and keep Fultz. He has two years left on his contract - so no worries on the cap...yet - and I think an AB/Crowder/Mem pick may eventually end up getting it done. That is probably just hopeful thinking, though.

Thanks, jamb...TP for the esoteric cap stuff/explanation.

Can't keep all those permutations in my head and project them forward very far...haha...getting old.

I agree that Indy would want one of the BKs, but think we have enough assets to get George, given his LA-bound cloud.

Also, how cap-wise would a KO S&T work? Is it workable? KO and Turner would be a pretty good front-court of the future for them.

TP back to you - I am just a salary cap poser, though, as I try to follow what the true experts around here say 

Unfortunately, if we are signing Hayward, a KO s&t would NOT work. Signing Hayward would require us to renounce everybody who is not guaranteed for next year and that includes KO. AB and Crowder is a really good start to a trade (I hate to lose Crowder due to his great contract). It just depends on which picks teams require with those two. BKN picks = no dice, as far as I'm concerned.

As far as future cap implications goes, Butler at least would give us one less year of astronomical salary. It is even possible Horford opts out the same year Butler's contract ends.

Thanks, again....whatever happens, I'm hoping Fultz and Hayward are the start of an exciting summer.

[GreenCoffeeBean]

I think he's gonna get Hayward, George, Butler, AND Klay. Just kidding. You're all nuts lol

[saltlover]

Yeah I'd like to know the answer as well regarding the "how long can we keep that core" around.

I hear it really hurts out flexibility for the future and could cause us to go into a "premature win-now mode" which doesn't bode well with Golden State and Cleveland still reigning, and could cripple us in 3-4 years (forcing us into another rebuild of sorts).

My cap knowledge is pretty weak. Saltover or any other capologists out there?

That's an impossible roster to create, and it would last exactly one season if it weren't.

[ETNCeltics]

Luxury tax would be insane. No way we're doing anything like that.