Author Topic: To the people that think players should stay in College...  (Read 4642 times)

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To the people that think players should stay in College...
« on: June 05, 2017, 02:28:58 AM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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https://youtu.be/d85Cr0njnrw

Jimmy Kimmel had a gameshow bit between Jalen Rose (1991-94) & Glenn Robinson III (2012-14) from Michigan and Andre Drummond (2011-12) & Caron Butler (2000-02) from UConn the opportunity to defend their schools with their brains...it did not go well.

This is an example of the farce involving top basketball 'student' athletes.

Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 08:26:10 AM »

Offline Big333223

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https://youtu.be/d85Cr0njnrw

Jimmy Kimmel had a gameshow bit between Jalen Rose (1991-94) & Glenn Robinson III (2012-14) from Michigan and Andre Drummond (2011-12) & Caron Butler (2000-02) from UConn the opportunity to defend their schools with their brains...it did not go well.

This is an example of the farce involving top basketball 'student' athletes.
College athletes staying in school "for the education" is indeed a farce.

I still think players going to college for a year or two is a good thing. It allows them to learn the game at lower stakes and allows them to get comfortable with fame and adult responsibility on a smaller scale before the pros make them (often) national celebrities.

But I also think they should be paid for their work, one way or another.
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Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 08:58:13 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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I don't think players should stay in college for the degree.



They should stay in college (or some other sort of developmental league or overseas) to learn how to better play at a higher level.   


Baseball and Hockey do the development themselves the right way.   Football force their players to learn before they have to come to the league.



I want the NBA to force players to more fully develop their game before they get to the league.  I want to see rookies coming in that we have had more time to see as fans and thus, be more hyped about the players.



Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 09:23:58 AM »

Offline JohnBoy65

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Another issue with the kids staying in college argument is that more often than not college basketball fans take it personally when a player leaves 'their' school early. That's when I hear the "Player X isn't ready, he should have to stay. How stupid." College basketball players owe their college fan base nothing, and it's always bothered me when adults criticise kids for chasing their dream.

Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 10:03:34 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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top athletes in colleges (regardless of their sport) are rarely there for the education but as a stepping stone to the pros.  I went to a school that only had hockey as a division 1 sport.  they were strictly athletes, not student-athletes.

I'd be all for a true NBA minor league similar to Baseball and hockey but probably not much more than 1 level of minor leagues unlike those other 2 sports. 

Have a draft of players out of high school (they would have to declare and know that they lose college eligibility).  Have a separate draft for college and foreign players.  mandate the high school players play 1 year in the minors for a set pay rate at a minimum.  players can move up to the major club after 1 year or be called up periodically beginning with their second year.  players going to college cannot declare for the draft until after their junior year --> the intent is to get the players serious about getting a degree with their scholarship actually put the effort in.

The club can keep the player in the minors for up to 3 years (with increasing pay grade).  if they don't get called up in 3 years (or have a half a season's worth of NBA games under their belt --> number of games is negotiable) the player becomes a RFA able to sign with anyone but if their 'home' club retains them they must be on the major roster the full season or they become a UFA at the end of the season if sent down to the minors for any reason.

Obviously a high-level concept that would need lots of defining of the details but would end the farce of players going to college for 1-and-done.


Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 10:50:57 AM »

Offline bdm860

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Quote from: slightly biased bias fan link=topic=91358.msg2325587#msg2325587

This is an example of the farce involving top basketball 'student' athletes.

They don't know what an Oedipus complex is.  Ha, what a sham their college education must have been.   ;D

I think the average college educated person would have answered about as well as they did.  Hey I thought "heart" and "South Carolina" too, and I have a Masters.

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Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 10:57:05 AM »

Offline GreenCoffeeBean

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Aside from hopefully getting more/some education which would be great, college players need to stay in to continue getting better at the game of basketball and also close out the biggest part of their physical development. So many players get drafted high because they have one really good basketball skill but you need several skills to make it in the NBA.

It's almost like the teams that have to draft these 18/19 year olds are getting punished by having to pay for their first 2-3 years where they are completely not ready to play in the NBA yet. Look at a team like the Timberwolves. Everything on paper says they should be awesome but those kids still can't hang with vets.

It's counter intuitive but having less college players go into the pros could make the NBA more competitive. More roster spots would go to players that are better *now* instead of sucking due to "developing" these teenagers. The freshman could develop in college instead. It might even make the draft less of a crap shoot.

Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 11:00:05 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Well, a degree can't really replace being genuinely curious and bothering to read a book once in a while, so there's that.

On the other hand, if you thought the heart is an artery, then you should have paid more attention in middle school, not in college...
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Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 11:32:15 AM »

Offline Smartacus

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Not to be overly callous but I care almost nothing about their education and everything about having a more complete pool of prospects to choose from with more data to work with.

2 years of College is challenging. Raising the age limit will weed out the flash in the pan fluke freshman seasons, the guys who are barely keeping their lives together after 1 semester, and the injury concern guys.

Marcus Smart had to deal with becoming the focal point with a ton of tape on himself and ended up boiling over and punching a fan. That's good data to have when considering a top pick.

Just off the top of my head I would have wanted another year of data on... Jabari Parker, Kyrie Irving(worked out), Thon Maker, Daniel Orton, Rashad Vaugne, Jaylen Brown(seems to be working out),  Erick Bledsoe,  and Skal Labisierre.

This year I got downvoted to oblivion on Reddit for suggesting that it was a good thing that Robert Williams stayed at Texas A and M for another year. The way I saw it he was a fringe guy who could use another year of development and exposure but the other poster's in the thread were acting like he was throwing his career away. If I was picking in the lotto I would definitely want the extra year of data on a guy like Williams.

Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 11:37:43 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I think the NBA should raise the age limit, not because it's better for the players, but because it's better for the league. One year of college ball provides a picture into who can play. Another year would give a clearer picture, and would hopefully make players better prepared to contribute right away.


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Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 11:38:12 AM »

Offline footey

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I don't think players should stay in college for the degree.



They should stay in college (or some other sort of developmental league or overseas) to learn how to better play at a higher level.   


Baseball and Hockey do the development themselves the right way.   Football force their players to learn before they have to come to the league.



I want the NBA to force players to more fully develop their game before they get to the league.  I want to see rookies coming in that we have had more time to see as fans and thus, be more hyped about the players.

Agree. It would make the draft more predictable, easier to predict long term value, if they were required to stay in college/play elsewhere longer.

Of course, there would be an adjustment period where for 2-3 years the draft value would get hurt badly by this change.

Let's hope it does not take effect before next year's draft!!!

Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2017, 12:13:54 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I think the NBA should raise the age limit, not because it's better for the players, but because it's better for the league. One year of college ball provides a picture into who can play. Another year would give a clearer picture, and would hopefully make players better prepared to contribute right away.
What I really think should happen is that team should be able to draft players and have them play college ball for as long as necessary. NHL style.
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Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 09:23:36 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I don't think players should stay in college for the degree.



They should stay in college (or some other sort of developmental league or overseas) to learn how to better play at a higher level.   


Baseball and Hockey do the development themselves the right way.   Football force their players to learn before they have to come to the league.



I want the NBA to force players to more fully develop their game before they get to the league.  I want to see rookies coming in that we have had more time to see as fans and thus, be more hyped about the players.
3 of the 5 greatest players in the 2000's had no college at all i.e. James, Garnett, and Bryant (Duncan and O'Neal are the other 2, just so we are clear).  Nowitzki who isn't far behind those 5, didn't go to college either (though obviously played professionally in Europe).  The 2nd best player in the world right now i.e. Durant, went to college for just 1 year. 

This idea that you need college is just silly.  Last week, Silver was on Cowherd's show and he heavily implied that the NBA will eliminate that rule in some fashion.  He basically said the 6 months of "schooling" doesn't help the players or the schools and that they needed to fix it.  He and the BPA agreed to put that on hold during the last round of negotiations, but Silver expects that they will work on it before the expiration of the current deal and may even make the change prior to the next overall contract. I got the distinct impression, that they will look at a baseball type system (i.e. you don't have to go to college but if you do you have to stay for x years, with x more than 1), though he didn't come out and say it.  This would be coupled with an expanded minor league where the players that aren't ready for the NBA could go. 

EDIT:  Here is a clip of the interview.  they touch on super teams and the one and done here - the full interview is worthwhile, but I can't find it.

https://youtu.be/pVp0W9NfMbQ

Here is an article which has much of above and a little more for those that can't watch youtube

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/7-things-we-learned-from-nba-commissioner-adam-silvers-interview-with-colin-cowherd-053117

And the text for the part on 1 and done

 Colin Cowherd: “The one thing I think is a charade is one-and-done. Many of the most dynamic players in this league -- and most responsible -- did not go to college. Why not expand your D-League, make it the European style? Start at 16 years old. End this charade of college basketball one-and-done?"

Adam Silver: “It may surprise you, but I’m rethinking our position.

"Our historical position since we raised the age from 18 to 19 was that we want to go from 19 to 20, and the union’s position is they want to go from 19 to 18.

"In the last round of collective bargaining, Michelle Roberts and I both agreed ‘Let’s get through these core economic issues in terms of renewing the collective bargaining agreement, and then turn back to this age issue. Because it’s one I think we need to be more thoughtful on, and not just be in an adversarial position, sort of under the bright lights of collective bargaining.

"I’ll take your point one step further. Even the players, the so-called one-and-done players, I don’t think it’s fair to characterize them as going to one year of school.

"What’s happening now, even at the best schools, they enroll at those universities and they attend those universities until either they don’t make the tournament, or to whenever they lose in or win the NCAA tournament. That becomes their last day. So, in essence, it’s a half-and-done. A half a school year, and then they go on.

"For those of [you] who haven’t seen it, take a look at that Ben Simmons documentary that was on Showtime last year. And I don’t blame him, I don’t know him well, but he seems like a bright young man. He has a crew following him around LSU his freshman year — and it’s not LSU’s fault either — he’s essentially saying ‘Why am I here? I don’t even want to be here. I’m forced to be here.’ His team didn’t even make the tournament, and he was still the first pick in the NBA Draft.

"So I do think we have to rethink it at this point, because now selfishly, while I love college basketball and I’m a huge fan of college basketball, I worry about potentially stunted development in the most important years in these players’ careers.

"…. These young men, they’re followed so closely from the time they’re 13 or 14 on. They’re at the major shoe companies’ summer camps. They’re being watched closely by the league, by the college scouts. And so when they get to [college], now they’re in a unique situation. Talk about resting in the NBA, all of a sudden now they realize, even though they can buy insurance,  their biggest concern, unfortunately, becomes not whether they can win the NCAA tournament, but whether they drop in the NBA Draft. So then they have to be worried about how their skills are showcased, how many minutes they get, whether they get injured. It’s not a great dynamic.”
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 09:31:18 PM by Moranis »
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Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2017, 09:28:06 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I think the NBA should raise the age limit, not because it's better for the players, but because it's better for the league. One year of college ball provides a picture into who can play. Another year would give a clearer picture, and would hopefully make players better prepared to contribute right away.

It's much better for the league to raise the age limit. Currently any team drafting in the lottery really has to gamble their future on unknown teenagers.

In addition, eliminating the age limit would just crush NCAA basketball, profits would plummet. It hurts them as is when their best players play only one season, in which their coaches and teammates know that they will be gone next year the whole way through.

Same goes for Euro stashes. If a guy like Bender or Zizic would be required to play 3 years on a foreign team, their teams would invest more in developing them and giving them playing time. In turn, NBA teams would have a much better idea about what they are getting when they draft them.

Re: To the people that think players should stay in College...
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2017, 09:57:03 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I think there are benefits, even if just socially and emotionally, for a kid to stay in college for 1 or 2 years. But things have to change. If the NCAA is going to be making money off of these kids, they have to be getting paid for it one way or another. The system that is in place now is ridiculous.

I could be talked in to dropping the age limit back to 18 but I think that would have to be combined with an expansion of the D-League to make sure young players are getting the time and coaching they need to develop.

Giving examples of 3 of the best players in history and saying "See, they can do it," is not convincing to me. I'm more worried about the players who aren't the best of the best and get thrown into the deep end too early.
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