The Little Guy has to

[celticsclay]

I got to agree that comparing him to eddie house, a fringe nba player, brings down the quality of the post and makes it harder to start off as a clean debate point. I don't think it needs to be locked for that, but it makes me less apt to want to contribute to the thread. I would suggest that a little more reasonable starting post will get better conversation flowing.

[Spilling Green Dye]

I don't think he has to go, I just don't think he should be here for 25 to 30 mil / year.  Maybe 20mil with the current salary cap (which isn't escalating as quickly as initially projected).

[mobilija]

You can't win in the playoffs with one very good offensive player, a center that plays like a SF, and 4 undersized guards.  IT is the only reason we made even made the playoffs. 

Mods, can this thread be locked? There has to be some level of quality control here.

Dude had an opinion that is different than yours. Don't be an elitist fascist snob. He should be allowed to express it in the non-offensive manner that celtics blog allows. You sound whiny, calling for mommy to step in because you don't like the game another child is playing.

Fascist? That's an interesting take, but couched within rubbish.

I'd appreciate some evidence to back-up this claim. Provide statistical evidence or qualitative information to support the notion that IT is the reason we've been outplayed by the Wizards.

Comparing IT to Eddie House detracts from the quality of the forum. Call me the Erdoğan of CsBlog, but I believe the quality of that comment warrants locking the thread.  I won't stoop beneath that by slinging mud as you have.

I didn't make the claim about IT being the reason we are loosing to the wizards. I think he's amazing and has been the heart and soul of this Celtic season. Inspirational even. However, There are big questions about how to proceed forward with him and it is a legitimate topic. I would be eager to hear people's opinions whether they are backed up with facts and stats or merely opinion.


So, I'm calling you out for thinking the OPs opinion is not up to snuff w your lofty standards of celtics blog. Sorry if the "mud slinging" hurt your feelings, but it got your attention...  what right do you have to censor people expressing their opinions on a public forum? If you don't want to read this thread then don't. But you have no right to censor it and keep the rest of us from exploring and engaging.   Elitist, snobby, whiny and yes possibly even fascist; yup that's my interesting take of rubbish on your need to control this topic because the OP's take wasn't high enough quality.

I think my feelings will be okay. For the record, I haven't baited you into breaking forum rules either. 

I've read the countless threads blaming IT for our struggles, labeling him trade-bait, even moving him to the bench.  I'm sure I've shared my opinion in a few, too, w/in forum rules.  Like ilikesports commented above, I can also acknowledge that his contract situation will be a tricky one.  But I have a hard time believing any poster that compares IT to Eddie House is not trolling.

The fine line of insulting other posters...
I apologize if the mods feel my posts cross the line of name calling but aren't you in a sense being just as insulting to the OP for asking to lock his thread? His opinion isn't good enough do he should be censored?

 I sensed nothing trollish about it. Maybe a poorly thought out comparison, yes.

[Ed Hollison]

I don't think he has to go, I just don't think he should be here for 25 to 30 mil / year.  Maybe 20mil with the current salary cap (which isn't escalating as quickly as initially projected).

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner.

I love IT but I agree with the OP: I'm not sure you can win a championship with him as your starting PG, because the other 4 guys on D have to struggle to compensate for him on that end. It doesn't mean he isn't a valuable player. Let's stop thinking in absolutes.

Best approach for the C's going forward is to wait until next year and let IT test the market. If some team offers him the max, I would think long and hard before matching. I know some people think the notion of him making less than the max is crwzy, given the season he just had. But I'm not so certain.

[Rosco917]

I don't think he has to go, I just don't think he should be here for 25 to 30 mil / year.  Maybe 20mil with the current salary cap (which isn't escalating as quickly as initially projected).

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner.

I love IT but I agree with the OP: I'm not sure you can win a championship with him as your starting PG, because the other 4 guys on D have to struggle to compensate for him on that end. It doesn't mean he isn't a valuable player. Let's stop thinking in absolutes.

Best approach for the C's going forward is to wait until next year and let IT test the market. If some team offers him the max, I would think long and hard before matching. I know some people think the notion of him making less than the max is crwzy, given the season he just had. But I'm not so certain.

Now this makes perfect sense.

My only problem is IT has been initiated...he's now in that small group of NBA players that are considered super stars. He appears in all the NBA advertising, he is the official "undersized Guys can play the game too" guy.

I have a feeling he's gonna want the max, or bye bye.

[slamtheking]

The little guy has to go. 

I love him - he has made Celtics basketball watchable and entertaining for the past few years.  But we now see his limitations.  Can he be a super Eddie House - oh yes.  Can he succeed with a super front court behind him on defense - maybe.  But the league has now seen the weakness of the Celtics.  Exploit Thomas on defense.

Even if the Celtics get past Washington, Thomas cannot stop Irving. And the new game plan will be post Thomas with the bigger player. Cause havoc on the C's defense.

I love IT, will hate to see him go.  But I have difficulty seeing a path to the championship with IT as the starting PG. 

I would strike while the iron is hot - and see what his value is. 

your premise is off.  the league figured it out 2 years ago.  It was on display the first year we made the playoffs with him and again last year.  any smart coach with a decent PG just puts him in the post and the PG either shoots over IT or passes over him.  Rondo was doing the same thing in the Chicago series (mostly just passing) until he went down with injury.

I don't like IT's game in the sense I don't like score-first PGs, particularly ones that aren't good facilitators.  (Wall would be an example I would offer as a score-first PG that can facilitate an offense.) For those that don't agree and believe he's a good facilitator, ask yourself the last time you saw IT lead a traditional fastbreak (2 on 1, 3 on 2)where he goes down the middle or off to the side to draw the defender and dishes to the other person on the break.  for the life of me, I can't remember seeing him do this.  I've seen him drive to the basket to score (which he does incredibly well) or pull up for a 3 (which drives me insane that someone running an offense thinks the best move on a fastbreak is jacking up a 3 on the run rather than passing to someone driving for a layup which is the higher percentage shot).

[KGBirdBias]

Ainge would be nuts to let IT walk or trade him.

He bought him at a garage sale and found out he's a rare piece of art worth a lot of money. You can't ever discard that type of find.

Now IT was willing to bring in a guy like Durant and take a backseat. He just didn't know Durant wasn't a alpha type player (like himself). IT has played hurt and through tragedy for this team...even when his teammates don't have his back at times.

IT is a throwback player would could play with the 86 or 08 Celtics. IT is a Celtic.

Get him some help...remember you found him at a garage sale and he's a 2 time All Star with no help and his team is the #1 seed at 5'9. Let that sink in.

[86MaxwellSmart]

STOP taking advice from Kobe Bryant...he's stunk it up since that new came out

[Darío SpanishFan]

You can't win in the playoffs with one very good offensive player, a center that plays like a SF, and 4 undersized guards.  IT is the only reason we made even made the playoffs. 

Mods, can this thread be locked? There has to be some level of quality control here.

I'm not calling you a fascist as someone did, but what you ask is not quality, but uniformity of opinion. A forum is to DEBATE with people thinking different things, even sometimes with trolls (and I've seen in some months here more disrespect than years of Spanish forums, to be honest).

The opening post has been unfortunate with the super Eddie House comment, but all in all I agree with the point and has its logic explained.

[celts55]

Love IT, but have to agree, he's a huge liability on Defense. Potter has abused him, and I don't think he that great. I personally think he'd be a great 6th man, but I know that's not going to happen.
That said, would I trade him for Wall? Absolutely. Irving? Yup. I could go on. I know he's king of the forth, but so would a lot of these guys on this team. No one else steps up. They give him the ball, and get out of the way. I'm pretty sure a guy like Wall would average 29 a game on the Celtics.
Again, love the guy and I'll be fine with him staying, but he's going to give up almost as many points as he scores. 

[boscel33]

I'm not convinced he has to go, but it's tough when the playoffs come and the game gets physical, he seems to get pushed around.  Then you add in the fact that AB is hurt, yet again, in the playoffs, it makes it difficult on him.  Personally, I think he's gone.  I think Danny went after him to bridge to the rebuild and not have to tank.

[Vermont Green]

IT has surpassed my expectations several times now.  At first, I thought his ceiling was 6th man of the year.  He blew past that and showed is he clearly a starter.  Then I felt he was just a really good volume scorer but he showed he could score at a high level of efficiency putting him in a fairly top tier of NBA players.  Others can debate top 10, top 20, top 30, whatever but he is a top NBA player (or at least scorer).  For example, he has taken his team farther than Butler, George, or Westbrook (not saying that means he is better but it is still something).

Now we are seeing him bump up against his ceiling against a very good team with a very good opposing point guard.  At this time, I don't think he is the guy we want to "build around" as a max contract player.  He may improve again and surprise me again.  I would not be opposed to trading him for a good deal, perhaps a younger, bigger player with star potential, but I just don't see that happening.  I am fine with playing out his contract and expect that he ends up signing elsewhere.

[KGBirdBias]

I don't get the hate on IT. The guy just put up 53 and was averaging 40ppg or this series is over.

[RIPRED]

You can't win in the playoffs with one very good offensive player, a center that plays like a SF, and 4 undersized guards.  IT is the only reason we made even made the playoffs. 

Mods, can this thread be locked? There has to be some level of quality control here.

Dude had an opinion that is different than yours. Don't be an elitist fascist snob. He should be allowed to express it in the non-offensive manner that celtics blog allows. You sound whiny, calling for mommy to step in because you don't like the game another child is playing.

Fascist? That's an interesting take, but couched within rubbish.

I'd appreciate some evidence to back-up this claim. Provide statistical evidence or qualitative information to support the notion that IT is the reason we've been outplayed by the Wizards.

Comparing IT to Eddie House detracts from the quality of the forum. Call me the Erdoğan of CsBlog, but I believe the quality of that comment warrants locking the thread.  I won't stoop beneath that by slinging mud as you have.

locking a thread because you disagree is a ridiculous. Grow up.

[slamtheking]

I don't get the hate on IT. The guy just put up 53 and was averaging 40ppg or this series is over.

I don't see any 'hate' here.  just people expressing their concern/opinions that IT has flaws (whether it's his D or his style of offense) and/or the team needs a better player than IT to put along side him and Al (or replace IT altogether which is unlikely and not even really being called for).