Author Topic: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?  (Read 16736 times)

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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2017, 10:25:11 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I still don't get the "IT isn't a max player" argument.

Is he in the same category as Beal, Lillard, Conley, Horford, Parsons, H. Barnes, etc.?

Those guys are "max" guys. I don't think any of them elevates this team more than IT. Our options are pay IT, or let him walk and then hope to sign a "max" player who probably isn't as good as IT in a few years.

IT is a max guy. Period. I don't think anyone can be against it. The question is... a max guy in a contender?

Sure, why couldn't he be? We realistically could have had this starting lineup:

DMC
Horford
George
Smart
IT4

You can't envision that team contending? It will be harder to build an elite team now because of the gaping big man hole, but that's not due to any fault of Thomas'.

I can see this team contending, of course. What happens is that we "passed on" Cousins and then your logic can't translate into our team. I can accept giving the max to IT (also, for chemistry reasons I'm reluctant to trade or let him go) but I hope the 4th year is a team option and we have other pieces to contend.

I also wanted to state something. People are always telling how much IT has given the Celtics and I've even read today that we would be far from the playoffs without him  ;D But... where would IT be if we hadn't put him in this situation? He was an almost undrafted sixth man, a 25 minute guy scoring from the bench. Our confidence, our coach, our situation will give him millions and millions of dollars.

Uh? Regarding the part in bold.  You don't know what you are talking about. 

Prior to coming to the Celtics, Thomas had started the majority (59%) of the NBA games he played in and averaged 28 1/2 mpg.

Please. I know what I'm talking about, so you could show a little respect, to start with.

After signing his contract in Phoenix, he plays 1 out of 46 games as a starter, averaging 15 points in 25 minutes. A team that didn't make the playoffs. We've been a blessing for him, as he's been for us.

Let's discuss the opinions, not the facts. And with good manners, if you can.

No.  Using the one season he was trapped in the dysfunctional organization that is the Phoenix Suns and their failed '3-guard' experiment as the reference basis for your assertion is either proof of ignorance or purposeful disingenuousness on your part.  So you indeed either don't know what you are talking about or you are not deserving of good manners.

Some of your other assertions about Thomas on this thread  ("he is not a top-25 player overall") are also either comically ignorant or blatant dishonesty as well.  So I'm sorry, earn your respect before you expect to get it.
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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2017, 10:49:11 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Bringing the third-leading scorer in the NBA off the bench as a "scoring weapon". Only in Boston.
being the third-leading scorer in the NBA isn't necessarily what most people want in their starting PG. 

there's a difference between bringing him off the bench to primarily score vs not wanting him on the team at all.
Yes, "people" want a true PG. Someone like Rajon Rondo. Man, it would work just swell if we could have Rajon Rondo instead of Isaiah Thomas, right?
I note the sarcasm but IT and Rondo are almost at opposite ends of the spectrum.  I love Rondo but he wasn't a complete PG either because his shooting/scoring was way too little.  he provides everything else though, except consistent effort.  Shooting/scoring and effort are the things IT brings to the table.

what I'm referring to is a PG that can provide scoring when called upon to provide a balanced offensive attack but is not a shoot-first PG.  there's a number of them in the league.  it's not a coincidence that IT is very effective on offense when there's another player running the offense and IT is functioning more as a SG than PG.  I'm amazed at how much criticism people heaped on Rondo for supposedly ballhogging but the ball sticks in IT's hands much more.  A lot of that time is that he's hanging on to that ball because he's looking to score rather than pass or facilitate the offense.

I know I'm in a small minority on this opinion and I'm perfectly fine with that.  I don't expect to change anyone's opinion.  no one will change my mind on it -- it's just how I feel a team offense should run.   

Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2017, 11:02:57 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Bringing the third-leading scorer in the NBA off the bench as a "scoring weapon". Only in Boston.
being the third-leading scorer in the NBA isn't necessarily what most people want in their starting PG. 

there's a difference between bringing him off the bench to primarily score vs not wanting him on the team at all.
Yes, "people" want a true PG. Someone like Rajon Rondo. Man, it would work just swell if we could have Rajon Rondo instead of Isaiah Thomas, right?
I note the sarcasm but IT and Rondo are almost at opposite ends of the spectrum.  I love Rondo but he wasn't a complete PG either because his shooting/scoring was way too little.  he provides everything else though, except consistent effort.  Shooting/scoring and effort are the things IT brings to the table.

what I'm referring to is a PG that can provide scoring when called upon to provide a balanced offensive attack but is not a shoot-first PG.  there's a number of them in the league.  it's not a coincidence that IT is very effective on offense when there's another player running the offense and IT is functioning more as a SG than PG.  I'm amazed at how much criticism people heaped on Rondo for supposedly ballhogging but the ball sticks in IT's hands much more.  A lot of that time is that he's hanging on to that ball because he's looking to score rather than pass or facilitate the offense.

I know I'm in a small minority on this opinion and I'm perfectly fine with that.  I don't expect to change anyone's opinion.  no one will change my mind on it -- it's just how I feel a team offense should run.   
I get preferring a more well rounded point guard , but Isaiah Thomas is too good to come off the bench.

If you don't want IT in the starting lineup then you must trade him.

If we draft Fultz I imagine the two would eventually start with Fultz running the offense and Isaiah effectively playing the 2.

Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2017, 11:17:50 PM »

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Bringing the third-leading scorer in the NBA off the bench as a "scoring weapon". Only in Boston.
being the third-leading scorer in the NBA isn't necessarily what most people want in their starting PG. 

there's a difference between bringing him off the bench to primarily score vs not wanting him on the team at all.
Yes, "people" want a true PG. Someone like Rajon Rondo. Man, it would work just swell if we could have Rajon Rondo instead of Isaiah Thomas, right?
I note the sarcasm but IT and Rondo are almost at opposite ends of the spectrum.  I love Rondo but he wasn't a complete PG either because his shooting/scoring was way too little.  he provides everything else though, except consistent effort.  Shooting/scoring and effort are the things IT brings to the table.

what I'm referring to is a PG that can provide scoring when called upon to provide a balanced offensive attack but is not a shoot-first PG.  there's a number of them in the league.  it's not a coincidence that IT is very effective on offense when there's another player running the offense and IT is functioning more as a SG than PG.  I'm amazed at how much criticism people heaped on Rondo for supposedly ballhogging but the ball sticks in IT's hands much more.  A lot of that time is that he's hanging on to that ball because he's looking to score rather than pass or facilitate the offense.

I know I'm in a small minority on this opinion and I'm perfectly fine with that.  I don't expect to change anyone's opinion.  no one will change my mind on it -- it's just how I feel a team offense should run.   

How many dual threat PGs are there, really, especially when your preference is for them to be pass-first and not ball dominant?

CP3? John Wall? Both dominate the ball, but even assuming they count, who is next? Jrue Holiday? He's a binkie of mine, but the team would be much worse with him. IT's elite scoring skill is more valuable than a PG who does everything at a very good, but not elite, level.


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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2017, 11:23:03 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Bringing the third-leading scorer in the NBA off the bench as a "scoring weapon". Only in Boston.
being the third-leading scorer in the NBA isn't necessarily what most people want in their starting PG. 

there's a difference between bringing him off the bench to primarily score vs not wanting him on the team at all.
Yes, "people" want a true PG. Someone like Rajon Rondo. Man, it would work just swell if we could have Rajon Rondo instead of Isaiah Thomas, right?
I note the sarcasm but IT and Rondo are almost at opposite ends of the spectrum.  I love Rondo but he wasn't a complete PG either because his shooting/scoring was way too little.  he provides everything else though, except consistent effort.  Shooting/scoring and effort are the things IT brings to the table.

what I'm referring to is a PG that can provide scoring when called upon to provide a balanced offensive attack but is not a shoot-first PG.  there's a number of them in the league.  it's not a coincidence that IT is very effective on offense when there's another player running the offense and IT is functioning more as a SG than PG.  I'm amazed at how much criticism people heaped on Rondo for supposedly ballhogging but the ball sticks in IT's hands much more.  A lot of that time is that he's hanging on to that ball because he's looking to score rather than pass or facilitate the offense.


Except ... it doesn't.  This simply isn't true.  At all.

Thomas has very low time-of-possession, average time-per-touch and touches per game stats compared to most other 'ball dominant' point-guards.  And he doesn't come within a country mile of Rondo (when he's been a starter) or guys like Harden, Wall or Westbrook for ball-dominance.  Those last 3 guys averaged possession of the ball almost 9 whole minutes of every game.  Thomas is way down at just 6.7 mpg.  Wall lead the league holding on to the ball at 6 seconds per touch.  Thomas was way down at just 4.7 seconds per touch.

What you are asserting is mythology.
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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2017, 11:35:03 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Bringing the third-leading scorer in the NBA off the bench as a "scoring weapon". Only in Boston.
being the third-leading scorer in the NBA isn't necessarily what most people want in their starting PG. 

there's a difference between bringing him off the bench to primarily score vs not wanting him on the team at all.
Yes, "people" want a true PG. Someone like Rajon Rondo. Man, it would work just swell if we could have Rajon Rondo instead of Isaiah Thomas, right?
I note the sarcasm but IT and Rondo are almost at opposite ends of the spectrum.  I love Rondo but he wasn't a complete PG either because his shooting/scoring was way too little.  he provides everything else though, except consistent effort.  Shooting/scoring and effort are the things IT brings to the table.

what I'm referring to is a PG that can provide scoring when called upon to provide a balanced offensive attack but is not a shoot-first PG.  there's a number of them in the league.  it's not a coincidence that IT is very effective on offense when there's another player running the offense and IT is functioning more as a SG than PG.  I'm amazed at how much criticism people heaped on Rondo for supposedly ballhogging but the ball sticks in IT's hands much more.  A lot of that time is that he's hanging on to that ball because he's looking to score rather than pass or facilitate the offense.


Except ... it doesn't.  This simply isn't true.  At all.

Thomas has very low time-of-possession, average time-per-touch and touches per game stats compared to most other 'ball dominant' point-guards.  And he doesn't come within a country mile of Rondo (when he's been a starter) or guys like Harden, Wall or Westbrook for ball-dominance.  Those last 3 guys averaged possession of the ball almost 9 whole minutes of every game.  Thomas is way down at just 6.7 mpg.  Wall lead the league holding on to the ball at 6 seconds per touch.  Thomas was way down at just 4.7 seconds per touch.

What you are asserting is mythology.

You're exaggerating a bit, because IT has the ball in his hands more than most starting PGs. His time of possession was 12th in the NBA, for instance, which was more than Lebron. He touches the ball a lot, although less so than the guys you noted.

What's impressive about IT is what he does with his touches. He led starting PGs in points per touch, despite not having a secondary guard regularly setting him up. He was also the centerpiece of a top-8 offense.

IT does exactly what he's supposed to: he converts touches into points.


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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2017, 11:35:18 PM »

Offline max215

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I think he's put to rest the idea that he can't do what he does in the playoffs. He's one of the 3-5 best offensive players in basketball. At some point, that's just the truth of the matter.
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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2017, 11:40:54 PM »

Offline JOMVP

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I was pretty firm in my stance that I would not offer him the max because of his deficiencies on the defensive end, but honestly, what he's done in the playoffs given all the circumstances, you can't deny that he's a superstar and I would offer it and keep defenders around him that hide what he cant do.

Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2017, 11:57:51 PM »

Online Celtic Fan Forever

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I love IT, I'd be comfortable giving him the max if we were still able to get a Griffin/Hayward. Honestly I think you have to give some credit to Horford regarding IT's improvement. He might be the best passing big in the league, and is a fantastic pick and roll player as well. Put another reliable scorer with those 2 and we're in business.
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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2017, 12:24:34 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Nothing has changed, Isaiah is unquestionably worth a max contract to the Celtics and several other teams in the league.  I'm not sure when a max contract became equated with GOAT status, either, but as others have pointed out above there are several very good-not-great players in this league that have paid paid comparably.  It's then on Ainge to fill out the roster with Wyc's other "two stars" to in order to get 'er done. 
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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #70 on: May 02, 2017, 01:26:23 AM »

Offline chambers

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1) Situational. This series I actually strongly feel he'd be better suited as a sixth man. Reason being he can't defend Wall or Beal which was obvious yesterday. I think if you start Bradley and Smart you set a defensive tone that can contain those two, then you have Thomas come in off the bench create that spark against a bench that has no chance of keeping up with him. That being said this scenario works only in this series, which is why I say situational.

2) I still don't believe Thomas is the answer for this team, I am a big fan but am still against paying him the max under the assumption we get a top two pick this draft. Truth be told Thomas has had two good games in the playoffs, the others his shooting and overall play was not great, but obviously there were outside issues that likely affected his performance.

I think if there is anyone we should now be discussing about paying it's Bradley. I think he has stepped up as the leader of this team. His offensive game has taking a huge jump, he has confidence, and he is one of the best defenders in the NBA. I think if you were to ask me now if we should extend Bradley 5 years at 18 mil or Thomas at 5 years/30 mil, the answer is AB. Also keep in mind AB is only 26.

But having Isaiah out there means Wall or Beal has to guard him and make their way around all those screens and hell in the high pick and roll.

They don't have anyone who can stop Isaiah and Horford/Olynyk in the high pick and roll.

This series having him as 6th man would be a terrible idea IMO. But everyone's entitled to their opinion.
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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2017, 05:31:06 AM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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So I'm sorry, earn your respect before you expect to get it.

Well, with this attitude you surely like talking to yourself and clapping ecstatic more than reading other people's opinions. Not very convenient, respect should be due to everyone.

Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2017, 07:04:28 AM »

Online Roy H.

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So I'm sorry, earn your respect before you expect to get it.

Well, with this attitude you surely like talking to yourself and clapping ecstatic more than reading other people's opinions. Not very convenient, respect should be due to everyone.

And, to be clear, against our rules.

"Respect others at all times" isn't ambiguous.


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Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2017, 07:11:21 AM »

Offline cman88

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for some reason people on this site dont feel a player averaging near 30ppg is worth the max  ::)

My opinion has never changed on thomas. he is a superstar....if you have other solid defenders they can make up for one subpar defender. look at Ray allen when he was on the celtics.

but you dont jettison that type of player because..."maybe one day we will have someone who can score 30ppg!" when you have one now..

Re: Have these last 7 games changed your opinion on IT?
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2017, 02:00:02 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Bringing the third-leading scorer in the NBA off the bench as a "scoring weapon". Only in Boston.
being the third-leading scorer in the NBA isn't necessarily what most people want in their starting PG. 

there's a difference between bringing him off the bench to primarily score vs not wanting him on the team at all.
Yes, "people" want a true PG. Someone like Rajon Rondo. Man, it would work just swell if we could have Rajon Rondo instead of Isaiah Thomas, right?
I note the sarcasm but IT and Rondo are almost at opposite ends of the spectrum.  I love Rondo but he wasn't a complete PG either because his shooting/scoring was way too little.  he provides everything else though, except consistent effort.  Shooting/scoring and effort are the things IT brings to the table.

what I'm referring to is a PG that can provide scoring when called upon to provide a balanced offensive attack but is not a shoot-first PG.  there's a number of them in the league.  it's not a coincidence that IT is very effective on offense when there's another player running the offense and IT is functioning more as a SG than PG.  I'm amazed at how much criticism people heaped on Rondo for supposedly ballhogging but the ball sticks in IT's hands much more.  A lot of that time is that he's hanging on to that ball because he's looking to score rather than pass or facilitate the offense.


Except ... it doesn't.  This simply isn't true.  At all.

Thomas has very low time-of-possession, average time-per-touch and touches per game stats compared to most other 'ball dominant' point-guards.  And he doesn't come within a country mile of Rondo (when he's been a starter) or guys like Harden, Wall or Westbrook for ball-dominance.  Those last 3 guys averaged possession of the ball almost 9 whole minutes of every game.  Thomas is way down at just 6.7 mpg.  Wall lead the league holding on to the ball at 6 seconds per touch.  Thomas was way down at just 4.7 seconds per touch.

What you are asserting is mythology.

You're exaggerating a bit, because IT has the ball in his hands more than most starting PGs. His time of possession was 12th in the NBA, for instance, which was more than Lebron. He touches the ball a lot, although less so than the guys you noted.

What's impressive about IT is what he does with his touches. He led starting PGs in points per touch, despite not having a secondary guard regularly setting him up. He was also the centerpiece of a top-8 offense.

IT does exactly what he's supposed to: he converts touches into points.

With 30 starting PGs in the league, to be ranked 12th in total time of possession would put him far closer to median than it would to 'ball hog', though, right?

And the specific premise I was responding to was "ball sticks in IT's hands much more".  Total time of possession will go up with more total touches, but whether it "sticks" in the hands is measured more by avg secs per touch.  And among players with at least 40 games and at least 50 touches per game, IT is ranked way down at 20th.   IT tends to be quick with the ball, either passing it or attempting to score.  Part of that is due to the way the Cs run their offense, often with Marcus or Horford starting with the ball and getting it to IT on the move.  So things often happen quickly.  But it is most definitely not a case of the ball "sticking" in Isaiah's hands.

I totally agree with your other points.
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