Author Topic: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals  (Read 2821 times)

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Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2017, 08:41:57 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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I disagree somewhat. If we had added to the team, that shows free agents we're not complacent. If a rental gets us one round further in the playoffs, that's a message to free agents that we're a threat.

Assume you're Gordon Hayward. If Utah makes it to the second round, and the Celts lose in the first, does that tip the scales? If so, wouldn't it have made sense to trade some second rounders for Tucker or Noel?

Bingo. Not only do we have too many of these lesser assets to use/keep anyways (RJ Hunter anyone?), but it also would've bolstered our playoff run this year. A potential first or second round loss is a much harder sell to a Griffin or Hayward this summer than an ECF Finsls berth. And the price/cost to potential reward ratio of these types of deals (Tucker, Noel, and even Ibaka) were still very favorable to the club taking the chance on them.

As evidence of this, look how helpful both Tucker and Ibaka have been so far in Toronto, and Noel has had nothing but glowing reviews out of Dallas so far. All three of them would've been super beneficial to us, and Noel would've ended up a long-term core piece for us, too.

Tucker is the only one that qualifies here. If we are talking about the non factor assets that he was acquired for, the 2nd round picks, then fine. But Ibaka cost Terrence Ross and a 1st. It's very reasonable to not want to give that up for a guy not in your long term plan. As for Noel, he completely ruins any cap space options this summer. I get that some fans love the idea of his blocks and his defense but in reality he would have detracted from this team and what its strengths are.

The issue with Tuxker is where do his minutes come from? In Toronto they are relatively easy to come by. In Boston the only guy who I would take minutes from is JJ, but then we play even smaller which could be a problem. He isn't taking minutes from Crowder, Brown, Smart or Bradley

Naw, Noel was still workable. You could still get someone like Hayward this summer even with his cap hold, though you'd have to let KO go and trade Bradley for future draft considerations, which might've happened no matter what, along with losing one of our other end of the bench players iirc. But it was certainly still doable.

As for Ibaka, I still think evaluating his fit here for the rest of the season was worth the minimal assets it would've cost to get him. We still could've had just as much (actually a bit more) cap space this summer by an Ibaka trade of Zeller, Rozier, and the Clips pick, which was the reported price, and that's a price we should be willing to pay, even if we decided to waive our rights to him this summer. That's why you stockpile assets to make those types of moves. That Clippers pick won't be anything substantial (lottery-protected anyways iirc), and Rozier ultimately has no place on this roster with IT, AB, and Smart all significantly ahead of him,  especially after we draft a Fultz or Ball type this summer.

Though I still think he would've fit in here like a glove, and we could've ultimately liked his fit enough to resign him long-term as we build our younger core. I ultimately think someone like Ibaka would've given us a legit chance to beat Cleveland, and even GS sans Durant, if that's the case in June. He just fits what we need in a stretch 4 so well on both sides of the ball that it was completely worth the risk of trading those minimal assets for him.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 08:49:17 AM by jpotter33 »
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Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2017, 08:59:16 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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I disagree somewhat. If we had added to the team, that shows free agents we're not complacent. If a rental gets us one round further in the playoffs, that's a message to free agents that we're a threat.

Assume you're Gordon Hayward. If Utah makes it to the second round, and the Celts lose in the first, does that tip the scales? If so, wouldn't it have made sense to trade some second rounders for Tucker or Noel?

Bingo. Not only do we have too many of these lesser assets to use/keep anyways (RJ Hunter anyone?), but it also would've bolstered our playoff run this year. A potential first or second round loss is a much harder sell to a Griffin or Hayward this summer than an ECF Finsls berth. And the price/cost to potential reward ratio of these types of deals (Tucker, Noel, and even Ibaka) were still very favorable to the club taking the chance on them.

As evidence of this, look how helpful both Tucker and Ibaka have been so far in Toronto, and Noel has had nothing but glowing reviews out of Dallas so far. All three of them would've been super beneficial to us, and Noel would've ended up a long-term core piece for us, too.

Tucker is the only one that qualifies here. If we are talking about the non factor assets that he was acquired for, the 2nd round picks, then fine. But Ibaka cost Terrence Ross and a 1st. It's very reasonable to not want to give that up for a guy not in your long term plan. As for Noel, he completely ruins any cap space options this summer. I get that some fans love the idea of his blocks and his defense but in reality he would have detracted from this team and what its strengths are.

The issue with Tuxker is where do his minutes come from? In Toronto they are relatively easy to come by. In Boston the only guy who I would take minutes from is JJ, but then we play even smaller which could be a problem. He isn't taking minutes from Crowder, Brown, Smart or Bradley

Naw, Noel was still workable. You could still get someone like Hayward this summer even with his cap hold, though you'd have to let KO go and trade Bradley for future draft considerations, which might've happened no matter what, along with losing one of our other end of the bench players iirc. But it was certainly still doable.

As for Ibaka, I still think evaluating his fit here for the rest of the season was worth the minimal assets it would've cost to get him. We still could've had just as much (actually a bit more) cap space this summer by an Ibaka trade of Zeller, Rozier, and the Clips pick, which was the reported price, and that's a price we should be willing to pay, even if we decided to waive our rights to him this summer. That's why you stockpile assets to make those types of moves. That Clippers pick won't be anything substantial (lottery-protected anyways iirc), and Rozier ultimately has no place on this roster with IT, AB, and Smart all significantly ahead of him,  especially after we draft a Fultz or Ball type this summer.

Though I still think he would've fit in here like a glove, and we could've ultimately liked his fit enough to resign him long-term as we build our younger core. I ultimately think someone like Ibaka would've given us a legit chance to beat Cleveland, and even GS sans Durant, if that's the case in June. He just fits what we need in a stretch 4 so well on both sides of the ball that it was completely worth the risk of trading those minimal assets for him.
Given that we have been talking about trading some combination of the Nets pick, Bradley, Smart and Crowder for Butler until very recently, I would say that Rozier could well be a long term piece on this team. The truth is we don't know which future we will have and until we do it is wasteful to spend assets on middling players.

People talk about our 14 picks over the next 3 seasons. Some of those are end of the 2nd round, they will be used on stashes who might turn up 3 years down the line, not a problem for our roster. The other ones are the type of picks Danny will want on draft night (this year or in the future) to entice another team to make a deal. Teams seem to prefer having a pick in the draft they know far more than a future one.
We had the option of using Noel strictly as a rental / backup option. The price was so low that it was worth it.

Let me be doubtful that the price asked was the same for us.

The idea that teams will take inferior deals just to avoid dealing with the Celtics is nothing but nonsensical propaganda fed to the media by the team.

I think what he is stating is that the price could be different for a division rival, not just because we are the Celtics. Normally a team would prefer to trade to the opposite conference if it can find a similar deal

Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2017, 09:03:26 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Quote
I think what he is stating is that the price could be different for a division rival, not just because we are the Celtics. Normally a team would prefer to trade to the opposite conference if it can find a similar deal

When has a team turned down a better deal just to keep them away from a rival? I know this is some sort of convention wisdom, but it's garbage. Any GM that takes an inferior deal because he's scared of a rival should be fired.

Fox Sports looked at deals from past deadlines. Six of the top eight biggest deadline deals were within the same conference:

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-trade-deadline-deals-biggest-best-most-important-ranking-demarcus-cousins-022117

This season, perhaps the three most impactful players dealt - Boogie, Korver, Ibaka - were dealt within the same conference, as were Lou Williams, Nurkic, Plumlee and  Bogdonavic.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 09:12:31 AM by Roy H. »


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Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2017, 09:24:50 AM »

Offline Fireworks_Boom!

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The sky is falling attitude of many on this board is ridiculous. I too was disappointed in the no move but got over it real quick when I reminded myself the following:

1. We're currently #2 in EC.
2. Major injuries have effected the top 3 teams in the league (Warriors = Durant, Toronto = Lowry, Cleveland = Love) likely improving our chances of making a deep run in the playoffs.
3. Gordon Hayward has at least a 50% chance to be signed in the offseason.
4. We'll potentially be picking #1 overall next year and have our choice of the top young guards (Fultz).
5. We have young big men developing under the radar in Yabusele and Zizic.

This team is set up for the long run and is competing now also. Lets enjoy this team right now as we're built and know that reinforcements are coming.

Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2017, 09:36:13 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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We had the option of using Noel strictly as a rental / backup option. The price was so low that it was worth it.

Let me be doubtful that the price asked was the same for us.

The idea that teams will take inferior deals just to avoid dealing with the Celtics is nothing but nonsensical propaganda fed to the media by the team.

And the ball club certainly has its personal PR people in the media, such as "For Immediate Release" Bulpett, who impeaches his own credibility with me daily.

You are quite correct. The rebounding help was out there, for pennies on the dollar and for "assets" that are not needed in Boston, despite the nonsensical notion that "the price is higher because Ainge is an evil genius."

The best option was clearly to bring in rebounding help to make a playoff run, sending the message that the Celtics are continuing their rebound. Instead, we chose to send the message that we don't care about this season and we're going to rely on propaganda to fool the masses.

You can fool some of the people some of the time ...
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Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2017, 09:36:51 AM »

Offline Big333223

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The idea that teams will take inferior deals just to avoid dealing with the Celtics is nothing but nonsensical propaganda fed to the media by the team.
While illogical, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that teams would demand more from the Celtics and then when they don't get it, wind up having to take an inferior deal.

Knowing the assets the Celtics have, maybe Philly told the C's they'd take nothing less than a 1st and a 2nd and Rozier for Noel, bluffing but hoping the C's would cave. When they don't, the 76ers are left having to accept the lesser offer from Dallas, because they either don't have time to go back and negotiate again with the C's or because the C's would now offer even less because they know the 76er's are desperate and don't trust that there is another offer on the table.

I'm not saying that happened and I don't think it did in this case, but I could see something like that playing out.
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Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2017, 09:43:13 AM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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We had the option of using Noel strictly as a rental / backup option. The price was so low that it was worth it.

Let me be doubtful that the price asked was the same for us.

The idea that teams will take inferior deals just to avoid dealing with the Celtics is nothing but nonsensical propaganda fed to the media by the team.

As someone has suggested, we are division rivals, not just propaganda reasons.

Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2017, 09:55:35 AM »

Offline The One

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Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2017, 09:59:12 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Quote
I think what he is stating is that the price could be different for a division rival, not just because we are the Celtics. Normally a team would prefer to trade to the opposite conference if it can find a similar deal

When has a team turned down a better deal just to keep them away from a rival? I know this is some sort of convention wisdom, but it's garbage. Any GM that takes an inferior deal because he's scared of a rival should be fired.

Fox Sports looked at deals from past deadlines. Six of the top eight biggest deadline deals were within the same conference:

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-trade-deadline-deals-biggest-best-most-important-ranking-demarcus-cousins-022117

This season, perhaps the three most impactful players dealt - Boogie, Korver, Ibaka - were dealt within the same conference, as were Lou Williams, Nurkic, Plumlee and  Bogdonavic.

So it's obviously very difficult to say bt Deron Williams and Carmelo Anthony spring to mind, Shaq to Miami, Howard to LA instead of the Nets. It's impossible to say how much the conference aspect played in it. It makes sense to me though. GMs make moves to keep themselves in a job, if we agree on that then it can be inferred that they are influenced by how the media will react to their moves. Some GMs like Danny have the job security to not worry about that, guys like Dell Demps doesn't.

Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2017, 10:50:11 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The idea that teams will take inferior deals just to avoid dealing with the Celtics is nothing but nonsensical propaganda fed to the media by the team.
While illogical, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that teams would demand more from the Celtics and then when they don't get it, wind up having to take an inferior deal.

Knowing the assets the Celtics have, maybe Philly told the C's they'd take nothing less than a 1st and a 2nd and Rozier for Noel, bluffing but hoping the C's would cave. When they don't, the 76ers are left having to accept the lesser offer from Dallas, because they either don't have time to go back and negotiate again with the C's or because the C's would now offer even less because they know the 76er's are desperate and don't trust that there is another offer on the table.

I'm not saying that happened and I don't think it did in this case, but I could see something like that playing out.
what you are describing is not the same thing as turning down a better offer. 
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Re: All in all, the best option was not to give any assets for rentals
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2017, 11:20:33 AM »

Offline Big333223

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The idea that teams will take inferior deals just to avoid dealing with the Celtics is nothing but nonsensical propaganda fed to the media by the team.
While illogical, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that teams would demand more from the Celtics and then when they don't get it, wind up having to take an inferior deal.

Knowing the assets the Celtics have, maybe Philly told the C's they'd take nothing less than a 1st and a 2nd and Rozier for Noel, bluffing but hoping the C's would cave. When they don't, the 76ers are left having to accept the lesser offer from Dallas, because they either don't have time to go back and negotiate again with the C's or because the C's would now offer even less because they know the 76er's are desperate and don't trust that there is another offer on the table.

I'm not saying that happened and I don't think it did in this case, but I could see something like that playing out.
what you are describing is not the same thing as turning down a better offer.
Correct.

I'm just trying to illustrate a scenario in which the Celtics might have been offering the same as or maybe even something slightly better than Dallas but because of the assets they have, they still couldn't have gotten Noel without giving up something much more significant.

Again, I'm not saying this necessarily happened in this case but I can see something like that playing out.
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