We need a GM that is hungry again

[mahonedog88]

I'm really starting to question how much pull Brad Stevens has in the roster construction.

The Danny Ainge we all remember was strictly about talent.  Barring being a convicted felon, Ainge...up until Brad Stevens got here...would bring anyone in as long as they could play, as long as they were the most talented.

Since Stevens has gotten here though, it's been a bunch of delightful guys that are easy to coach.  The only player with talent that could be classified as a malcontent that Stevens has coached so far in his NBA coaching career is Rondo...and Brad didn't exactly handle that situation with flying colors.

Brad Stevens has to understand that in the NBA, not every player with talent is going to have a squeaky clean resume.  Managing tough personalities is a part of the job for an NBA coach.  The sooner he accepts that and steps out of his comfort zone of only wanting Al Horford-types with no baggage, the better it will be for everyone.

Smart shoved a fan in college and has since hit Matt Bonner in the nuts and punched a hole in a locker room wall.
Isaiah Thomas had teammate issues in Phoenix(not his fault)
Evan Turner was a chemistry disaster in Indiana

Theres 3 guys that prior to their time in Boston had some question marks around them. Now they are beloved.

None of those guys have ever been questioned about being uncoachable, their competitiveness has never been questioned.  Guys like Dwight Howard and Demarcus Cousins though?  No no, can't touch them.  Tell me, who would you rather have right now, Al Horford on his contract or Dwight Howard on his?  Point being, it's not quite as simple of an answer as we thought last summer.  Why were they a hard no on Demarcus Cousins?

[Monkhouse]

One criticism I have of him is he doesn't seem concerned about rebounding or defensive big guys. AJ was supposed to fill that role, but he hasn't been consistent. It was not a good sign.

It all started when they didn't pay Perkins, who was their defensive rebounding big in '08. A guy who took a lot of heat off KG. They weren't the same after that, though it was mixed in with KG's injury. The other guys they let go for $$ were Powe (offensive rebounder supreme) and Posey, defensive 3P guy. When KG got hurt, they were that much weaker because those other guys weren't around.

OK, other teams grossly overbid for these guys, but they didn't seem to make a strong effort to keep them. I always thought Wyc was the controlling factor--he figured he got his championship, and he wasn't going over the cap to get another. Plus maybe there was an under appreciation of what a defensive guy like Perk brought to the team. I don't think Wyc was in touch with Celtics history, and the importance of Bill Russell in winning championships with his defense. He just didn't want to pay a defensive guy. Maybe still doesn't, though AJ did not come cheap.

To be fair to Ainge, neither was Perk.  I also think that that trade would never have happened if OKC had disclosed their knowledge of Jeff Green's heart issue

After I found that out, I knew right then and there I wished the worst on OKC.

That trade including the Jrue Holiday, (where his injury was non-disclosed,) was absolutely despicable, and cringe-worthy considering how messed up, it is to lie about something like that, and not expect any harsh consequences.

[SHAQATTACK]

I only know one NBA  person who is hungry AlL the Time ..

but he an't no GM

Unless GM = Great Meal

[saltlover]

I'm really starting to question how much pull Brad Stevens has in the roster construction.

The Danny Ainge we all remember was strictly about talent.  Barring being a convicted felon, Ainge...up until Brad Stevens got here...would bring anyone in as long as they could play, as long as they were the most talented.

Since Stevens has gotten here though, it's been a bunch of delightful guys that are easy to coach.  The only player with talent that could be classified as a malcontent that Stevens has coached so far in his NBA coaching career is Rondo...and Brad didn't exactly handle that situation with flying colors.

Brad Stevens has to understand that in the NBA, not every player with talent is going to have a squeaky clean resume.  Managing tough personalities is a part of the job for an NBA coach.  The sooner he accepts that and steps out of his comfort zone of only wanting Al Horford-types with no baggage, the better it will be for everyone.

Smart shoved a fan in college and has since hit Matt Bonner in the nuts and punched a hole in a locker room wall.
Isaiah Thomas had teammate issues in Phoenix(not his fault)
Evan Turner was a chemistry disaster in Indiana

Theres 3 guys that prior to their time in Boston had some question marks around them. Now they are beloved.

Absolutely.  Smart was someone who supposedly might fall in the draft because of "character concerns."  He's been an Ainge favorite since at least his draft combine, and a Stevens favorite since no later than his second game on the team (and presumably before then).

You need a mix of level-headed players and "head cases" on any team.  The Celtics haven't shied away from that, as long as the effort is out there on the court.

[saltlover]

I'm really starting to question how much pull Brad Stevens has in the roster construction.

The Danny Ainge we all remember was strictly about talent.  Barring being a convicted felon, Ainge...up until Brad Stevens got here...would bring anyone in as long as they could play, as long as they were the most talented.

Since Stevens has gotten here though, it's been a bunch of delightful guys that are easy to coach.  The only player with talent that could be classified as a malcontent that Stevens has coached so far in his NBA coaching career is Rondo...and Brad didn't exactly handle that situation with flying colors.

Brad Stevens has to understand that in the NBA, not every player with talent is going to have a squeaky clean resume.  Managing tough personalities is a part of the job for an NBA coach.  The sooner he accepts that and steps out of his comfort zone of only wanting Al Horford-types with no baggage, the better it will be for everyone.

Smart shoved a fan in college and has since hit Matt Bonner in the nuts and punched a hole in a locker room wall.
Isaiah Thomas had teammate issues in Phoenix(not his fault)
Evan Turner was a chemistry disaster in Indiana

Theres 3 guys that prior to their time in Boston had some question marks around them. Now they are beloved.

None of those guys have ever been questioned about being uncoachable, their competitiveness has never been questioned.  Guys like Dwight Howard and Demarcus Cousins though?  No no, can't touch them.  Tell me, who would you rather have right now, Al Horford on his contract or Dwight Howard on his?  Point being, it's not quite as simple of an answer as we thought last summer.  Why were they a hard no on Demarcus Cousins?

I'd rather have Al Horford.

[Ilikesports17]

I'm really starting to question how much pull Brad Stevens has in the roster construction.

The Danny Ainge we all remember was strictly about talent.  Barring being a convicted felon, Ainge...up until Brad Stevens got here...would bring anyone in as long as they could play, as long as they were the most talented.

Since Stevens has gotten here though, it's been a bunch of delightful guys that are easy to coach.  The only player with talent that could be classified as a malcontent that Stevens has coached so far in his NBA coaching career is Rondo...and Brad didn't exactly handle that situation with flying colors.

Brad Stevens has to understand that in the NBA, not every player with talent is going to have a squeaky clean resume.  Managing tough personalities is a part of the job for an NBA coach.  The sooner he accepts that and steps out of his comfort zone of only wanting Al Horford-types with no baggage, the better it will be for everyone.

Smart shoved a fan in college and has since hit Matt Bonner in the nuts and punched a hole in a locker room wall.
Isaiah Thomas had teammate issues in Phoenix(not his fault)
Evan Turner was a chemistry disaster in Indiana

Theres 3 guys that prior to their time in Boston had some question marks around them. Now they are beloved.

None of those guys have ever been questioned about being uncoachable, their competitiveness has never been questioned.  Guys like Dwight Howard and Demarcus Cousins though?  No no, can't touch them.  Tell me, who would you rather have right now, Al Horford on his contract or Dwight Howard on his?  Point being, it's not quite as simple of an answer as we thought last summer.  Why were they a hard no on Demarcus Cousins?

how many guys did Danny bring in who fit that description pre-Stevens? Rondo? Rasheed?

Also, Id rather have Al.

[PhoSita]

Danny has been a top tier GM.

I don't think we should dismiss the OP's primary concern, though. I think it's an interesting question: is Danny too cautious lately?

I would posit a different frame for this:

"Is it possible that Danny is somewhat more patient as a GM now that he's built a contender, torn that contender down once the window was closed, and then put together a good-but-not-great team to replace it?


My feeling is that the answer might be yes.

But .... maybe that's not a bad thing.

Look, the first time Ainge built a contender, it came together almost all at once.  It was a whirlwind summer, and then the team stormed the regular season, won a title in their first run, and then looked unstoppable the following year.  Until, that is, Kevin Garnett injured his knee.  After that, the team remained competitive, even coming within one quarter of a second title, but they were never the same juggernaut that they were before KG got hurt.


What I suggest is that perhaps what Ainge took away from the experience of the KG years was that a contender is a fragile thing.  One title won does not guarantee later title wins.

I think perhaps Ainge wants to build a contender very badly, but even more, he wants to build a team that can sustain success over a longer period of time.  Because Ainge doesn't just want to bring Banner 18 to the Celts.  He wants to bring Banners 19, 20 and perhaps more after that.  He doesn't want to build a team that can be the 2004 Pistons (the KG Celts compare strongly to that group) or the 2011 Mavs.  He wants to build a team that sit atop the league for a decade, or more.


To that end, he is looking for ways to maximize the talent on the team, but he is focused on building a culture, as Boris explained.  Furthermore, I think he's focused on ways to build up a talent base that is sustainable, with a cache of assets sufficient to keep the roster well stocked with affordable talent.  Danny does not want to be one knee injury away from his painstakingly constructed contender to turn into a second tier also-ran.


Ainge has already joined the ranks of GMs that built a title-winner.  Now he wants to be one of the select few who have built a dynasty.

I think it is entirely possible that this is true and its not a very good thing in my mind.

Ironically, Ainges problem may be that he is too hungry.

He wants 3 championships, not a punchers chance at one title.

also, I wonder how many GMs have won multiple championships without a single player constant to both teams.

I think this cuts to the heart of the disagreement on this board. Some value a punchers chance at one title over extended success.

I prefer extended success, and think that extended success will lead to us having a punchers chance at a title even if we don't trade a bunch of assets for a star.

My feeling is that even going for a puncher's chance, the best way to achieve that is to be at least very good (e.g. 50+ wins, top 10 in either offense or defense, at least one All-Star talent) for an extended period of time. 

The more bites at the apple you get, the more opportunities you get to have everything come together at the right time.  Dallas is the best example here.  I think if your team is among the best two or three teams in the conference for close to a decade, it's likely that you'll make the Finals at least once.  If you make the Finals, who knows what might happen?

Meanwhile, as your team continues to hang out near the top but not quite at the top, you can look for ways to add that one final piece to send you over the top, whether it's nailing a mid-to-late 1st, swinging a trade for an undervalued star talent, or signing a guy who addresses your team's biggest weakness.

[PhoSita]

One criticism I have of him is he doesn't seem concerned about rebounding or defensive big guys. AJ was supposed to fill that role, but he hasn't been consistent. It was not a good sign.

It all started when they didn't pay Perkins, who was their defensive rebounding big in '08. A guy who took a lot of heat off KG. They weren't the same after that, though it was mixed in with KG's injury. The other guys they let go for $$ were Powe (offensive rebounder supreme) and Posey, defensive 3P guy. When KG got hurt, they were that much weaker because those other guys weren't around.

OK, other teams grossly overbid for these guys, but they didn't seem to make a strong effort to keep them. I always thought Wyc was the controlling factor--he figured he got his championship, and he wasn't going over the cap to get another. Plus maybe there was an under appreciation of what a defensive guy like Perk brought to the team. I don't think Wyc was in touch with Celtics history, and the importance of Bill Russell in winning championships with his defense. He just didn't want to pay a defensive guy. Maybe still doesn't, though AJ did not come cheap.

Perk, God love him, was a straight scrub after his knee injury.  Ainge dumped him for some value before that became totally apparent to anybody who watched him play.

Not just that, but the league has mostly passed these guys by.  Being a great defensive big man has a lot more to do with the ability to switch onto smaller players without sacrificing too much on the boards, as opposed to the ability to defend 1-on-1 in the post with a really high block percentage.

It's true, Ainge doesn't seem to place a great deal of value on the "Volleyball Player" archetype -- e.g. big pogo sticks who have very little skill but are great at swatting away or grabbing and dunking the basketball within 5 feet of the basket.  The only time I know of that Ainge drafted a player like that was Fab Melo (RIP, big guy), and I think the hope with Fab was that he was a bit of a tabula rasa and could develop into more than just a presence near the basket.

I think the aversion to that sort of player is defensible, though.  Players of that sort tend to be very expensive for what they are, and I think there's an argument to be made that unless you have some truly superlative offensive creators elsewhere on the floor, the limitations of that kind of player (typically they can't really pass, shoot, defend the perimeter, or hit free throws) are almost as much of a drag as their strengths are a boon.

[Monkhouse]

One criticism I have of him is he doesn't seem concerned about rebounding or defensive big guys. AJ was supposed to fill that role, but he hasn't been consistent. It was not a good sign.

It all started when they didn't pay Perkins, who was their defensive rebounding big in '08. A guy who took a lot of heat off KG. They weren't the same after that, though it was mixed in with KG's injury. The other guys they let go for $$ were Powe (offensive rebounder supreme) and Posey, defensive 3P guy. When KG got hurt, they were that much weaker because those other guys weren't around.

OK, other teams grossly overbid for these guys, but they didn't seem to make a strong effort to keep them. I always thought Wyc was the controlling factor--he figured he got his championship, and he wasn't going over the cap to get another. Plus maybe there was an under appreciation of what a defensive guy like Perk brought to the team. I don't think Wyc was in touch with Celtics history, and the importance of Bill Russell in winning championships with his defense. He just didn't want to pay a defensive guy. Maybe still doesn't, though AJ did not come cheap.

Perk, God love him, was a straight scrub after his knee injury.  Ainge dumped him for some value before that became totally apparent to anybody who watched him play.

Not just that, but the league has mostly passed these guys by.  Being a great defensive big man has a lot more to do with the ability to switch onto smaller players without sacrificing too much on the boards, as opposed to the ability to defend 1-on-1 in the post with a really high block percentage.

It's true, Ainge doesn't seem to place a great deal of value on the "Volleyball Player" archetype -- e.g. big pogo sticks who have very little skill but are great at swatting away or grabbing and dunking the basketball within 5 feet of the basket.

I think that's defensible, though.  Players of that sort tend to be very expensive for what they are, and I think there's an argument to be made that unless you have some truly superlative offensive creators elsewhere on the floor, the limitations of that kind of player (typically they can't really pass, shoot, defend the perimeter, or hit free throws) are almost as much of a drag as their strengths are a boon.

Thing is Ainge tried to shoot for someone like that in Fab Melo, and think of how much criticism Ainge received...

[Diggles]

I think we need to keep him around just for putting us in the position we are in today. 

Cap room every year, one of the youngest teams, picks and second in the East.    Lots of good contracts.   

Danny is hungry, and realize you can't do things because they "feel" right.   You do things because they "are" right. 

Billy King was hungry....still is.    PASS on a new GM.   

[steve]

Jaylen Brown's 2nd half of the season is going to make you realize why we didn't trade for Butler/George.

I'd rather have Jaylen, Smart, Crowder and Fultz/Ball/Jackson, than Butler/George. I don't understand how anyone could think differently.

If we did trade for Butler/George we'd be a completely new team expected to gel in time to compete this year. Not possible. Then, after losing in the 1st round, George could have bolted for LA!

[nickagneta]

I'm really starting to question how much pull Brad Stevens has in the roster construction.

The Danny Ainge we all remember was strictly about talent.  Barring being a convicted felon, Ainge...up until Brad Stevens got here...would bring anyone in as long as they could play, as long as they were the most talented.

Since Stevens has gotten here though, it's been a bunch of delightful guys that are easy to coach.  The only player with talent that could be classified as a malcontent that Stevens has coached so far in his NBA coaching career is Rondo...and Brad didn't exactly handle that situation with flying colors.

Brad Stevens has to understand that in the NBA, not every player with talent is going to have a squeaky clean resume.  Managing tough personalities is a part of the job for an NBA coach.  The sooner he accepts that and steps out of his comfort zone of only wanting Al Horford-types with no baggage, the better it will be for everyone.

I agree to an certain extent. But to be fair, Rondo wasn't exactly none too pleased with the drafting of a 'franchise' guard, and most likely felt his job was in jeopardy.

I wish Ainge went after Cousins. Even if I felt like he would've been a locker room menace, I would've loved to see how he could've been utilized to the best of his ability, and I felt like Cousins would've enjoyed the crowd of Boston.

I'm really starting to question how much pull Brad Stevens has in the roster construction.

The Danny Ainge we all remember was strictly about talent.  Barring being a convicted felon, Ainge...up until Brad Stevens got here...would bring anyone in as long as they could play, as long as they were the most talented.

Since Stevens has gotten here though, it's been a bunch of delightful guys that are easy to coach.  The only player with talent that could be classified as a malcontent that Stevens has coached so far in his NBA coaching career is Rondo...and Brad didn't exactly handle that situation with flying colors.

Brad Stevens has to understand that in the NBA, not every player with talent is going to have a squeaky clean resume.  Managing tough personalities is a part of the job for an NBA coach.  The sooner he accepts that and steps out of his comfort zone of only wanting Al Horford-types with no baggage, the better it will be for everyone.

Smart shoved a fan in college and has since hit Matt Bonner in the nuts and punched a hole in a locker room wall.
Isaiah Thomas had teammate issues in Phoenix(not his fault)
Evan Turner was a chemistry disaster in Indiana

Theres 3 guys that prior to their time in Boston had some question marks around them. Now they are beloved.

This is also what I was gonna post next. Need to stop slacking off at work. 

But Turner and Thomas had concerns about whether or not they would've disrupted the winning 'culture,' built by Stevens and Ainge co.

Let's not also forget Marcus Thornton and a p!ssed off David Lee because he couldn't start. The narrative that the Celtics passed on Cousins because Stevens can't coach dufficult players is made up hogwash. The entire front office decided to pass on Cousins for a variety of reasons. They came to the same conclusions that the majority of teams across the league came to: that despite Cousins incredible INDIVIDUAL basketball talent, he is not a team player and a knuckleheaded cancer in the locker room. Stevens didn't nix a DMC deal...it was an entire front office decision.

[Royrebirth]

How spoiled you sound in your original post. We are in arguably one of the most, if not the most, enviable positions in the entire league. We're second in the league with a flurry of top picks coming in because of DA. You talk about Ainge not being hungry... but couldn't you argue that the other 25, 26 teams' GM that didn't want to trade for DMC also as being not hungry because they also did not want to trade for him? So what are you really posting about?

Just for a point of reference, look at the Lakers, whom started the rebuild the same way – how much better off than they are we? It's because DA and his brain trust.

God posts like this make me so infuriated and done with this fan base.

[flybono]

saw the topic of the thread and figured it had to be one of three posters.  guessed right.

TP. Figured it was Clench, cltc5 or flybono. I guessed right

14 years in Boston only 1 championship. Your right, Ainge is on his way to Springfield....

Keep on drafting  Danny, u ain't made a bad pick yet!

[nickagneta]

saw the topic of the thread and figured it had to be one of three posters.  guessed right.

TP. Figured it was Clench, cltc5 or flybono. I guessed right

14 years in Boston only 1 championship. Your right, Ainge is on his way to Springfield....

Keep on drafting  Danny, u ain't made a bad pick yet!

Thanks for proving my point.