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ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« on: February 21, 2017, 04:48:33 PM »

Offline colincb

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Couldn't find the last Butler trade thread within 1 minute:

Summary:

Pelton's ESPN insider piece on possible BOS-Butler trade. Pelton is ESPN's resident BB stats guru and analyzes deals based on production compared to contract (there are some shortcomings to that method, but here are some shortcomings to any analysis). Excerpts:


Outlined Deal

Quote
According to ESPN's Brian Windhorst, the Bulls are seeking a package of a pick expected to be in the top five selections, a current starter and a top prospect in return for Butler.


Starters:

Quote
Including Crowder should be a non-starter. Though not as valuable on the court as Butler, Crowder -- whose plus-3.7 RPM ranks 21st -- has an even better contract.

Quote
Because he has just one season remaining on his contract, and because he doesn't rate as well by RPM or box-score stats as Crowder, Bradley is a much better option from Boston's point of view. I estimate his net value at just $3.7 million, though the Celtics surely place more value on him as a starter. Smart falls somewhere in between, with an estimated net value of $17.5 million for the remainder of his cheap rookie contract.


Top 5 Pick

To boil down Pelton's analysis of the value of our 2017 pick, Pelton suggests protecting the top pick for the #1 selection (and it defaults to the 2018 pick) to make the overall deal fairer to BOS.


Top Prospect (by default it’s Jaylen Brown)

Quote
That leaves Brown, the trickiest part of a potential Butler deal to evaluate. The Celtics viewed him as the third-best player in last year's draft, and a typical No. 3 pick would provide about $27 million in net value above his remaining rookie salary -- similar to the value of this year's Brooklyn pick. I would include Brown in a Butler offer because his statistical production has yet to match that of the typical No. 3 pick, but Boston might reasonably balk at giving up him, Smart and the Nets' pick.


===

- I like all three of the vets, but I agree with Pelton as of this moment because Smart appears to be turning a corner. AB is IMO the best on-ball defensive guard in the NBA, and he's a better offensive player than Smart, but his contract is going to jump and Smart's made a huge improvement recently. Also, AB's strictly a 2 guard offensively and has less position versatility defensively. One of the worse passing guards in the NBA for my money, though it’s his only glaring weakness. You could pair Butler and Smart in the backcourt, but AB and Butler does not work at all. Finally, Crowder's production for his contract is one of the best in the NBA, so he stays.

- Putting protection on the 2017 pick appeals to me.

- Biggest hangup is Brown for me. I am not as high on him as others  (and apparently those include CBS and DA), but I've been wrong before and I'd leave it to DA, to whom I delegate such matters.

Butler's a top 15 player and fills a big need as another go-to scorer. We can get the necessary frontcourt players with Zizic and Jackson/2018 pick plus depth.  Not as high on Fultz (leaning Jackson actually as of today) or Brown and could be wrong on both. Would probably do this and given my hesitation, tells me it's a reasonable deal (especially compared to the homer deals being floated around here). In Danny I trust though.

===

If you have ESPN Insider access, the link is here:

http://insider.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/18731752/should-celtics-trade-potential-no-1-pick-jimmy-butler-nba

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2017, 04:57:05 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.
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Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2017, 04:58:18 PM »

Offline colincb

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.

Close enough. Had the same thought.

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2017, 05:00:27 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.
I'd rather keep Brown and give the pick unprotected. Send out Zeller as salary filler instead.

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2017, 05:03:07 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.
I'd rather keep Brown and give the pick unprotected. Send out Zeller as salary filler instead.

Yep, this is where I'm at.

Keep Smart + Brown.

2017 Nets Pick (unprotected), Bradley, Zeller, Rozier, 2018 BOS 1st, 2019 MEM/LAC 1st.

Then maybe a smaller asset if necessary (Mickey/Young or a future second rounder) for Butler.
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2017, 05:04:10 PM »

Offline yagru

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some of these proposals are way too much

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2017, 05:05:07 PM »

Offline colincb

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.
I'd rather keep Brown and give the pick unprotected. Send out Zeller as salary filler instead.
I wouldn't do that for the Bulls.

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2017, 05:05:25 PM »

Offline oldtype

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.
I'd rather keep Brown and give the pick unprotected. Send out Zeller as salary filler instead.

That wouldn't get it done imo (to be fair, the proposed deal probably wouldn't get it done either.)

Brown + Bradley + 2017 with top 2 protection is the fairest deal for both sides.  We'd feel like we're giving up too much, Chicago would feel like they're getting too little.


Great words from a great man

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2017, 05:05:32 PM »

Offline footey

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His proposal is moronic. 

Give up 3 high quality players for one high quality player.

We didn't have to do that for Kevin Garnett. Butler is  no Garnett.

Fans on this site are spoiled rotten since their daddy Danny Ainge, through hard work and brilliance, acquired all of these great assets, and want him to over-spend to buy them a new toy.

C'mon.


Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2017, 05:08:03 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.
I'd rather keep Brown and give the pick unprotected. Send out Zeller as salary filler instead.

That wouldn't get it done imo (to be fair, the proposed deal probably wouldn't get it done either.)

Brown + Bradley + 2017 with top 2 protection is the fairest deal for both sides.  We'd feel like we're giving up too much, Chicago would feel like they're getting too little.

Who can offer a better deal? Lakers? Suns? Pistons (Drummond-Butler swap)?

Doubt Lakers send Ingram or Russell back and CHI would surely want one of the two, then Randle, possibly even Clarkson and their pick this year I bet. Lakers won't budge at all and will try to lowball them as well.
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2017, 05:12:55 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.

I would stop watching the Celtics. Where is the potential to grow for this team? What is up with this obsession with Butler? He's not even that efficient as a scorer.

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2017, 05:14:37 PM »

Offline colincb

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.
I'd rather keep Brown and give the pick unprotected. Send out Zeller as salary filler instead.

That wouldn't get it done imo (to be fair, the proposed deal probably wouldn't get it done either.)

Brown + Bradley + 2017 with top 2 protection is the fairest deal for both sides.  We'd feel like we're giving up too much, Chicago would feel like they're getting too little.

Who can offer a better deal? Lakers? Suns? Pistons (Drummond-Butler swap)?

Doubt Lakers send Ingram or Russell back and CHI would surely want one of the two, then Randle, possibly even Clarkson and their pick this year I bet. Lakers won't budge at all and will try to lowball them as well.

Better deal for Buills would be no deal.

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2017, 05:21:47 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Bradley, Brown, and 2017 top 2 protected, reverts to 2018 Nets if not conveyed this year.

That'd be my offer. Can tinker around the edges with lesser assets e.g. Rozier, Jackson, other picks etc.
I'd rather keep Brown and give the pick unprotected. Send out Zeller as salary filler instead.
I wouldn't do that for the Bulls.
What if you add Rozier in? That's pretty much my limit

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2017, 05:22:11 PM »

Offline cltc5

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His proposal is moronic. 

Give up 3 high quality players for one high quality player.

We didn't have to do that for Kevin Garnett. Butler is  no Garnett.

Fans on this site are spoiled rotten since their daddy Danny Ainge, through hard work and brilliance, acquired all of these great assets, and want him to over-spend to buy them a new toy.

C'mon.

There's not a player on our team that's a high quality player.  No one sans IT would even start!

Re: ESPN's Pelton on a Possible Outline of a Butler Deal
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2017, 05:23:20 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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His proposal is moronic. 

Give up 3 high quality players for one high quality player.

We didn't have to do that for Kevin Garnett. Butler is  no Garnett.

Fans on this site are spoiled rotten since their daddy Danny Ainge, through hard work and brilliance, acquired all of these great assets, and want him to over-spend to buy them a new toy.

C'mon.

There's not a player on our team that's a high quality player.  No one sans IT would even start!

Okay I agree that this team is still far from legit contention. But that's just absurd.

Horford can't start? Bradley can't?
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller