Author Topic: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...  (Read 7576 times)

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Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2017, 05:03:26 PM »

Offline td450

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I'm not certain IT has even peaked as a player yet, and he is averaging 30ppg. I've never seen anything like him before.

Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2017, 05:04:12 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Iverson dropped off a cliff between age 32 and 33 and age 34 was his last year in the league. 
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Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2017, 05:05:05 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Thomas won't sign a 5 year maximum contract until he is 30, which means you will be paying him close to 50 million dollars when he is 35 years old.  That is the problem with giving Thomas a full max deal.  Now if Thomas wants 3 years at full max, that is a different story, but a full 5 year maximum contract will be a gigantic albatross the last couple of years.  One that could easily cripple the franchise going forward.
Isaiah will only be 29 when he signs his next contract and I doubt the Cs give him a full 5 year supermax. He most likely receives a 4 year regular max.

Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2017, 05:07:13 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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Iverson dropped off a cliff between age 32 and 33 and age 34 was his last year in the league.
sure, but Iverson also admitted he didnt lift weights leading me to believe he didnt take too much care of his body. Combine that with the practice rant and its not too much of a stretch to suggest AI could have played a lot longer if hed been smarter with his preparation.

Thomas is a brick and he is already trying to follow a Tom-Brady type regimen, maximizing sleep etc etc in the interest of longevity.

Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2017, 05:08:33 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Thomas won't sign a 5 year maximum contract until he is 30, which means you will be paying him close to 50 million dollars when he is 35 years old.  That is the problem with giving Thomas a full max deal.  Now if Thomas wants 3 years at full max, that is a different story, but a full 5 year maximum contract will be a gigantic albatross the last couple of years.  One that could easily cripple the franchise going forward.
Isaiah will only be 29 when he signs his next contract and I doubt the Cs give him a full 5 year supermax. He most likely receives a 4 year regular max.
Yeah, his birthday is February, so 29, but will turn 30 during that first season and thus would be 35 if they gave him a 5 year contract when that contract ends.
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Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2017, 05:13:44 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Iverson dropped off a cliff between age 32 and 33 and age 34 was his last year in the league.
sure, but Iverson also admitted he didnt lift weights leading me to believe he didnt take too much care of his body. Combine that with the practice rant and its not too much of a stretch to suggest AI could have played a lot longer if hed been smarter with his preparation.

Thomas is a brick and he is already trying to follow a Tom-Brady type regimen, maximizing sleep etc etc in the interest of longevity.
Isaiah Thomas is unprecedented. I have no idea how his body will hold up. Id gladly give him 4 years to run through his age 34 season at the max if he can maintain his MVP type play in the playoffs this year.

Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2017, 05:15:21 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Iverson dropped off a cliff between age 32 and 33 and age 34 was his last year in the league.
sure, but Iverson also admitted he didnt lift weights leading me to believe he didnt take too much care of his body. Combine that with the practice rant and its not too much of a stretch to suggest AI could have played a lot longer if hed been smarter with his preparation.

Thomas is a brick and he is already trying to follow a Tom-Brady type regimen, maximizing sleep etc etc in the interest of longevity.
Nate Robinson, barely played after 30 despite being a career 36% shooter from three.  Calvin Murphy managed to play till 34, but was a role player his last few seasons.

Smaller players tend to have a shorter prime and larger fall than bigger players because when they lose the speed and athleticism they have no other real way to get a shot off and because they are so short they can't defend well, can't rebound well, etc. so they can't make up for the loss of athleticism and speed in other ways. 
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Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2017, 05:18:02 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Just some food for thought:

League average value of an NBA Win Share (http://www.brewhoop.com/2016/8/8/12354486/value-in-the-nba-whats-the-value-of-a-win)  in 2015-16 was about $1.9M.

Isaiah accrued 9.7 WS last year, meaning he was worth roughly $18.4M in dollar value to the league last year.  He was paid $6.9M.

Based on this year's BRI/salary numbers, a Win Share should be worth ~$2.7M.

So far this year, Isaiah has already accrued 9.3 WS and is on pace to post a ~14 WS season.  That would make his dollar value to the league at somewhere around $37.8M!  He is getting paid $6.5M.

Obviously, Win Shares are not a perfect measure of a player's actual value.   These are just back-of-the-envelope estimates of value.   But it should give you a sense of just how massively underpaid IT4 is right now compared to the value he is bringing to this franchise.
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Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2017, 05:19:22 PM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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Granted he could prove history wrong.

OR, we could be stuck with max contracts for both a declining IT and a declining horford. You can't acknowledge one side while ignoring the other.

The fact of the matter is nobody knows how this thing is going to turn out. Isaiah might go against the grains of time and prove everyone wrong in regards to the decline of small players. But we need to have an open discussion about all of the scenarios here. We have a chance to make a dynasty, so does it make sense to invest all of this money in someone who would have to be historically great, and historically able to stay in his prime for his contract?

If we give him the money, I will gladly root for the little guy to keep proving haters wrong. It is just that my logical side says to proceed with extreme caution. The celtics are in a position that almost every other team envies. We need to maximize this window that has opened for us off of the broken back of Brooklyn.
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Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2017, 05:26:30 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Iverson dropped off a cliff between age 32 and 33 and age 34 was his last year in the league.
sure, but Iverson also admitted he didnt lift weights leading me to believe he didnt take too much care of his body. Combine that with the practice rant and its not too much of a stretch to suggest AI could have played a lot longer if hed been smarter with his preparation.

Thomas is a brick and he is already trying to follow a Tom-Brady type regimen, maximizing sleep etc etc in the interest of longevity.
Nate Robinson, barely played after 30 despite being a career 36% shooter from three.  Calvin Murphy managed to play till 34, but was a role player his last few seasons.

Smaller players tend to have a shorter prime and larger fall than bigger players because when they lose the speed and athleticism they have no other real way to get a shot off and because they are so short they can't defend well, can't rebound well, etc. so they can't make up for the loss of athleticism and speed in other ways.
How valuable is it to compare the prime of career role-player Nate Robinson to an 2x all-star MVP candidate?

IT is in uncharted territory.

Im not willing to take the other 2 or 3 6' and under guys in the history of the NBA and claim you can draw conclusions from them.

Murphy couldnt shoot, played in a much more physical era and never put up the numbers IT is right now.

Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2017, 05:36:01 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Everybody loses half a step shortly after 30. Reaction time slows a bit with age as well. Not much can be done about those two facts, nor how that impacts players whose game is based on explosiveness and quicks.



Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2017, 05:53:49 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Iverson dropped off a cliff between age 32 and 33 and age 34 was his last year in the league.
sure, but Iverson also admitted he didnt lift weights leading me to believe he didnt take too much care of his body. Combine that with the practice rant and its not too much of a stretch to suggest AI could have played a lot longer if hed been smarter with his preparation.

Thomas is a brick and he is already trying to follow a Tom-Brady type regimen, maximizing sleep etc etc in the interest of longevity.
Nate Robinson, barely played after 30 despite being a career 36% shooter from three.  Calvin Murphy managed to play till 34, but was a role player his last few seasons.

Smaller players tend to have a shorter prime and larger fall than bigger players because when they lose the speed and athleticism they have no other real way to get a shot off and because they are so short they can't defend well, can't rebound well, etc. so they can't make up for the loss of athleticism and speed in other ways.

You know Nate Robinson couldn't hold a candle to IT, right?  Players get worse as they get older.  Nate was starting from a threshold of sometimes useful bench player.  His peak year by advanced stats were either at age 24 (18.9 PER, 5.9 win shares, 2.6 BPM, 2.6 VORP) or 28 (18.0, 5.9, 1.7, 1.9).  In between those two years he had a major dip in production, such that his age 28 year looks like a bit of an aberration, and then he reverted to prior form and fell out of the league.

IT, meanwhile, has seen a steady growth through his career (PERs of 17.6, 17.5, 20.5, 20.6, 21.5, and 27.5) from age 22-27.  Furthermore, his worst years were near that of Robinson's best years.  Early on his career it looked like they might be similar players, but at about age 25 their careee arcs took very different paths.  Robinson entered his decline phase at 25.  Thomas is in his age 27 season (having just turned 28), and is still ascending.  Even if this is the best it gets for IT (and it may be), there is nothing in his career path that says he's likely to quickly decline.  He's not Nate Robinson.  He stoped being Nate about 4 years ago.

Calvin Murphy, meanwhile, had a much steadier career.  His production was relatively constant until about age 30, tailed off for a couple of years, and then had a year of productivity spike at 32.  If IT were to follow this career arc, you'd absolutely sign up for a max deal.  Mirroring Murphy, but at his higher performance baseline, he'd have 2-3 more all-star campaigns in him, a dip to being still a productive starter, and then one last hurrah of stardom probably in the final year of his deal.  Again, the point is that IT is starting from a significantly higher performance threshold than either Murphy or Robinson (or 99% of NBA players).  Whereas Murphy's dip took him to decent starter or good bench player, he started from a level of very good starter.  IT is at MVP-level.  A commensurate drop mirroring Murphy brings him to very good starter in a couple of years.

Barring an ACL tear (which takes out players of all sizes, and contributed to Robinson's departure from the league, but was far from the sole cause) or Achilles (again, it can get anyone), there's no reason to believe Thomas will not have a typical career arc of most players who reach his current elite level of performance around age 26-28. He'll get a bit worse over the life of the contract, but odds are he'll still be well worth it.

Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2017, 05:54:49 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Smart is IT4 on the defensive end. Just as important

(a) No he isn't.

(b) Elite offensive players are much harder to replace than elite defenders.

Debateable

Thats like saying Melo is more valuable than Smart

Seriously?

Defense is so undervalued around here... for example lots of folks excusing Rondos poor defensive play endlessless

Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2017, 05:55:26 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Oops, double post.

Re: If Isaiah Thomas Isn't Worth The Max Or Near Max ($25-30M/Year)...
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2017, 05:56:33 PM »

Offline mctyson

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I think it's an absurd debate. To me, he's obviously going to get the max, and he's earned it.

It is not a debate about whether he is worth a max contract, it is whether he is worth it to the Celtics.  That is a valid argument.