Ainge & Mannix interviews on Toucher and Rich

[CoachBo]

Ainge getting roasted by Fox Sports.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-trade-rumors-deadline-one-week-bulls-nets-celtics-021617

Another quick article suggesting the Celtics trade everything away for a rental.

Not exactly true.  Butler wouldn't be a rental....

But he would be the end of the "forever rebuild."

what are you even talking about

Forever rebuild?

You'd think we were a bottom 5 team or something


Instead we're a top five ish team with top picks. SUCH an enviable position...

..

But I guess I'm just an ainge apologist..

The game isn't being in the top 5, Skippy.

Take a look at the banners the next time you're in the Garden.

The Celtics are about championships. Period. It isn't about hoarding draft choices - half of which Ainge will screw up anyway - and continually kicking the can four years down the road.

The assets have to become value someday - or someone gets fired.

Anything else is losing.

[BitterJim]

Ainge getting roasted by Fox Sports.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-trade-rumors-deadline-one-week-bulls-nets-celtics-021617

Another quick article suggesting the Celtics trade everything away for a rental.

Not exactly true.  Butler wouldn't be a rental....

But he would be the end of the "forever rebuild."

what are you even talking about

Forever rebuild?

You'd think we were a bottom 5 team or something


Instead we're a top five ish team with top picks. SUCH an enviable position...

..

But I guess I'm just an ainge apologist..

The game isn't being in the top 5, Skippy.

Take a look at the banners the next time you're in the Garden.

The Celtics are about championships. Period. It isn't about hoarding draft choices - half of which Ainge will screw up anyway - and continually kicking the can four years down the road.

The assets have to become value someday - or someone gets fired.

Anything else is losing.

Adding Butler alone to this team would not bring us a championship.

[Evantime34]

IT deserves the max more than a lot of guys who have received it, and deserves it more than a lot of guys who will receive it.

I mean, the guy is a top-10 MVP candidate. Horford gets a max deal but IT doesn't? That's borderline lunacy.

I also want to note that I'm in favor of giving IT a max extension this summer if we miss the home run in free agency.  He'll only have 6 years experience, which means he's eligible for only a 25% max, not a 30% max.  Also, since he'd be getting a large pay increase over his contracted value next season, he'd make about the same over 5 seasons by signing for the lower max now as he would by waiting for free agency in 2018.

Don't you get your max free agent, they go over to give IT his money? It isn't one or the other.

In this case, it IS one or the other. Renegotiating his contract and adding more years (like Harden did this summer) would be the only way to increase his salary for next year, and to do so would require cap room.  If we sign a max FA, we will use up our cap room, which would prevent us from renegotiating IT's contract.  We could still resign him with his Bird Rights in 2018, though

It and the Celtics could agree to an extension starting in 2018 even if they use up their cap space this summer (and thus can't renegotiate and extend)

[Eddie20]

Ainge getting roasted by Fox Sports.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-trade-rumors-deadline-one-week-bulls-nets-celtics-021617

Another quick article suggesting the Celtics trade everything away for a rental.

Not exactly true.  Butler wouldn't be a rental....

But he would be the end of the "forever rebuild."

what are you even talking about

Forever rebuild?

You'd think we were a bottom 5 team or something


Instead we're a top five ish team with top picks. SUCH an enviable position...

..

But I guess I'm just an ainge apologist..

The game isn't being in the top 5, Skippy.

Take a look at the banners the next time you're in the Garden.

The Celtics are about championships. Period. It isn't about hoarding draft choices - half of which Ainge will screw up anyway - and continually kicking the can four years down the road.

Like Brown? Are you still kicking the "Brown sucks, I wouldn't take him in the lottery" can down the road?

[saltlover]

IT deserves the max more than a lot of guys who have received it, and deserves it more than a lot of guys who will receive it.

I mean, the guy is a top-10 MVP candidate. Horford gets a max deal but IT doesn't? That's borderline lunacy.

I also want to note that I'm in favor of giving IT a max extension this summer if we miss the home run in free agency.  He'll only have 6 years experience, which means he's eligible for only a 25% max, not a 30% max.  Also, since he'd be getting a large pay increase over his contracted value next season, he'd make about the same over 5 seasons by signing for the lower max now as he would by waiting for free agency in 2018.

Don't you get your max free agent, they go over to give IT his money?  It isn't one or the other.

I'm saying this summer, you renegotiate his deal from $6.2 million to the max of $25.5 million using cap space, if there's no major free agent who is coming to town.  Of course the Celtics can always go over the cap (and luxury tax) in 2018 if they get someone, but doing so is likely to cause us to lose at least two of Bradley, Smart, and Olynyk, because budgets are real.  If they strike out this summer, maxing Thomas now as opposed to later could allow us to keep the core of IT, Horford, Crowder, AB, Smart, and Olynyk around long-term, while adding the Brooklyn (and other) picks and letting Brown continue to grow, filling out the rotation with MLE-types.  That's the sustainability Ainge is talks about.

[moiso]

Ainge getting roasted by Fox Sports.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-trade-rumors-deadline-one-week-bulls-nets-celtics-021617

Another quick article suggesting the Celtics trade everything away for a rental.

Not exactly true.  Butler wouldn't be a rental....

But he would be the end of the "forever rebuild."

This is crazy.  We aren't rebuilding, we are looking to add a piece. 

[hpantazo]

IT deserves the max more than a lot of guys who have received it, and deserves it more than a lot of guys who will receive it.

I mean, the guy is a top-10 MVP candidate. Horford gets a max deal but IT doesn't? That's borderline lunacy.

I fully agree. Its statements like that which make me doubt other comments from Mannix.

[moiso]

Ainge getting roasted by Fox Sports.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-trade-rumors-deadline-one-week-bulls-nets-celtics-021617

Another quick article suggesting the Celtics trade everything away for a rental.

Not exactly true.  Butler wouldn't be a rental....

But he would be the end of the "forever rebuild."

what are you even talking about

Forever rebuild?

You'd think we were a bottom 5 team or something


Instead we're a top five ish team with top picks. SUCH an enviable position...

..

But I guess I'm just an ainge apologist..

The game isn't being in the top 5, Skippy.

Take a look at the banners the next time you're in the Garden.

The Celtics are about championships. Period. It isn't about hoarding draft choices - half of which Ainge will screw up anyway - and continually kicking the can four years down the road.

The assets have to become value someday - or someone gets fired.

Anything else is losing.

If you ain't first you're last!   Golden State and San Antonio aren't defending champions- they are last!

[BitterJim]

IT deserves the max more than a lot of guys who have received it, and deserves it more than a lot of guys who will receive it.

I mean, the guy is a top-10 MVP candidate. Horford gets a max deal but IT doesn't? That's borderline lunacy.

I also want to note that I'm in favor of giving IT a max extension this summer if we miss the home run in free agency.  He'll only have 6 years experience, which means he's eligible for only a 25% max, not a 30% max.  Also, since he'd be getting a large pay increase over his contracted value next season, he'd make about the same over 5 seasons by signing for the lower max now as he would by waiting for free agency in 2018.

Don't you get your max free agent, they go over to give IT his money? It isn't one or the other.

In this case, it IS one or the other. Renegotiating his contract and adding more years (like Harden did this summer) would be the only way to increase his salary for next year, and to do so would require cap room.  If we sign a max FA, we will use up our cap room, which would prevent us from renegotiating IT's contract.  We could still resign him with his Bird Rights in 2018, though

It and the Celtics could agree to an extension starting in 2018 even if they use up their cap space this summer (and thus can't renegotiate and extend)

That's an option, but it's a totally different situation.  Saltlover's suggestion would essentially take some of the money from 2018/19 and beyond (when we would/will be in the tax because of IT, AB, and Smart getting paid) and move it to 2017/18, when we wouldn't be in the tax, making it much easier to keep the gang together (instead of getting $6 million next year and ~$30 million per year after that, he would be getting ~$25 million per year next year and beyond).

So you're definitely right that that's possible, but it would be a different situation

[GratefulCs]

Ainge getting roasted by Fox Sports.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-trade-rumors-deadline-one-week-bulls-nets-celtics-021617

Another quick article suggesting the Celtics trade everything away for a rental.

Not exactly true.  Butler wouldn't be a rental....

But he would be the end of the "forever rebuild."

what are you even talking about

Forever rebuild?

You'd think we were a bottom 5 team or something


Instead we're a top five ish team with top picks. SUCH an enviable position...

..

But I guess I'm just an ainge apologist..

The game isn't being in the top 5, Skippy.

Take a look at the banners the next time you're in the Garden.

The Celtics are about championships. Period. It isn't about hoarding draft choices - half of which Ainge will screw up anyway - and continually kicking the can four years down the road.

The assets have to become value someday - or someone gets fired.

Anything else is losing.

top five and trending up, my good man


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you were in favor of the Rodney Rodgers trade in the early 2000's

[Phantom255x]

Mannix REALLY thinks adding Butler or PG13 would put this team above CLE.

I'd like either too at the right price but they still won't beat CLE barring an injury in the playoffs.

Their prices are HIGH as well..

[footey]

Ainge getting roasted by Fox Sports.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-trade-rumors-deadline-one-week-bulls-nets-celtics-021617

Another quick article suggesting the Celtics trade everything away for a rental.

Not exactly true.  Butler wouldn't be a rental....

But he would be the end of the "forever rebuild."

what are you even talking about

Forever rebuild?

You'd think we were a bottom 5 team or something


Instead we're a top five ish team with top picks. SUCH an enviable position...

..

But I guess I'm just an ainge apologist..

The game isn't being in the top 5, Skippy.

Take a look at the banners the next time you're in the Garden.

The Celtics are about championships. Period. It isn't about hoarding draft choices - half of which Ainge will screw up anyway - and continually kicking the can four years down the road.

The assets have to become value someday - or someone gets fired.

Anything else is losing.

We won a single banner since 1986.  That's 30 years ago.  Stop this fantasy nonsense that we are  expected to fly another banner every year or it's a waste of time. 

I'd rather we build in a way that we can be competitive for as long as possible to get a championship, rather than consolidate to compete for the next 2 years, and then have to listen to people like you when we are suddenly too old, and no future assets, and decline to mediocrity.  We are anything but a mediocre team right now. 

[footey]

Mannix
- Does not believe Isaiah is a max player.

I'm sorry, if Mike effing Conley is a max contract player in this league, you can bet Isaiah is. Scorers like him are hard to come by. And they ALL get paid.

Yea seriously that's crazy talk, IT is a max player period!

I agree with Mannix but i'll phrase it differently. IT is not a max player in Boston, he is a Max player on say Orlando or any other small market team that has no immediate championship aspirations

There are a few things to consider here
The primary thing being that Boston is a championship city. Maxing out Thomas is not going to win us a championship. If the goal is to sell tickets then yes, Thomas is a max player (hence why I said Orlando). Thomas is unbelievable, but look at the other two MVP candidates.. Harden and Westbrick, neither of those guys are leading a team to a championship anytime soon.
Secondarily we are more likely than not landing Fultz or Ball this off season. If we want to build around Thomas we should trade the pick for one more complimentary piece, say Drummond. If we don’t want to trade it then our focus should be building around either of those guys and Jalen, not Thomas. Signing Thomas to a five year max the season after next makes no sense whatsoever if this is the direction we are going in.
I think Ainge just needs to pick a direction and stick with it, either max out what he can with the current core by adding a third piece or moving on when its time and develop through the draft. If it’s the latter maxing out Thomas makes no sense.

Bold above is a great point. Kind of the Tom Brady view. He consistently takes below market contracts for the team to be able to manage the salary cap better.  Because he wants to win.  Wonder if IT can embrace that idea.  Certainly Ainge should approach his negotiation that way.

[PhoSita]

There's no topic on these boards that more consistently inspires nonsensical, utterly mystifying discussion than: "Is ____ a max player?"


How this persists despite the fact that Isaiah is having a season UNLIKE ANYTHING ANY PLAYER WHO IS IN ANY WAY SIMILAR TO HIM HAS DONE BEFORE is baffling to me.

[TheSundanceKid]

Mannix
- Does not believe Isaiah is a max player.

I'm sorry, if Mike effing Conley is a max contract player in this league, you can bet Isaiah is. Scorers like him are hard to come by. And they ALL get paid.

Yea seriously that's crazy talk, IT is a max player period!

I agree with Mannix but i'll phrase it differently. IT is not a max player in Boston, he is a Max player on say Orlando or any other small market team that has no immediate championship aspirations

There are a few things to consider here
The primary thing being that Boston is a championship city. Maxing out Thomas is not going to win us a championship. If the goal is to sell tickets then yes, Thomas is a max player (hence why I said Orlando). Thomas is unbelievable, but look at the other two MVP candidates.. Harden and Westbrick, neither of those guys are leading a team to a championship anytime soon.
Secondarily we are more likely than not landing Fultz or Ball this off season. If we want to build around Thomas we should trade the pick for one more complimentary piece, say Drummond. If we don’t want to trade it then our focus should be building around either of those guys and Jalen, not Thomas. Signing Thomas to a five year max the season after next makes no sense whatsoever if this is the direction we are going in.
I think Ainge just needs to pick a direction and stick with it, either max out what he can with the current core by adding a third piece or moving on when its time and develop through the draft. If it’s the latter maxing out Thomas makes no sense.

Bold above is a great point. Kind of the Tom Brady view. He consistently takes below market contracts for the team to be able to manage the salary cap better.  Because he wants to win.  Wonder if IT can embrace that idea.  Certainly Ainge should approach his negotiation that way.

You take that approach with vets who have already sent their money, like Duncan. Not with guys who are criminally underpaid and are yet to have a market value contract