Please explain Celtics' defensive decline

[Ilikesports17]

Surprised that noone has mentioned pace. Opposing teams are just taking more shots...

defensive rating is points per 100 posessions. Higher pace means greater fatigue, but it shouldnt affect things too much.

[guava_wrench]

I think this could hurt us a lot in the playoffs. We are 8th in team pt differential due to a lot of success on offense. There is good reason to be skeptical that we can have similar success on offense in the playoffs. Considering how important IT is to our offense and how bad he is on defense, I have concerns.

I find comments about "effort" to be cheap and unsubstantiated. Every team goes there when they lose, which is silly because if every teams gives full effort, half the teams playing every day will still lose and blame effort. It is lazy analysis. The idea that defense is mostly effort is a myth. Speed, quickness, strength, coordination, and the ability to make split second reactions are not just in-game effort.

Both Brad Stevens and multiple players have come out and said that the team had to give better effort on the defensive end on many occassions. If the coach and team say that effort has been a problem I don't see how analyzing that effort has been a problem is cheap or unsubstantiated. Effort might not be the only reason, but it is definitely a reason for bad defense. Any coach and player in just about any sport will tell you that.

Every team with poor defense says this. It is empty talk, but what else are they going to say? Every says "need more effort", especially horrible teams, because there isn't much else to say without giving up.

It is empty sports cliche. Talk about effort when we see guys actually taking plays off. The Celtics don't. They are a hardworking group.

[MBunge]

I think this could hurt us a lot in the playoffs. We are 8th in team pt differential due to a lot of success on offense. There is good reason to be skeptical that we can have similar success on offense in the playoffs. Considering how important IT is to our offense and how bad he is on defense, I have concerns.

I find comments about "effort" to be cheap and unsubstantiated. Every team goes there when they lose, which is silly because if every teams gives full effort, half the teams playing every day will still lose and blame effort. It is lazy analysis. The idea that defense is mostly effort is a myth. Speed, quickness, strength, coordination, and the ability to make split second reactions are not just in-game effort.

Both Brad Stevens and multiple players have come out and said that the team had to give better effort on the defensive end on many occassions. If the coach and team say that effort has been a problem I don't see how analyzing that effort has been a problem is cheap or unsubstantiated. Effort might not be the only reason, but it is definitely a reason for bad defense. Any coach and player in just about any sport will tell you that.

Every team with poor defense says this. It is empty talk, but what else are they going to say? Every says "need more effort", especially horrible teams, because there isn't much else to say without giving up.

It is empty sports cliche. Talk about effort when we see guys actually taking plays off. The Celtics don't. They are a hardworking group.

Do you actually watch any of these games?  No one is pulling a James Harden and just standing around waiting for the other team to shoot so they can go back to offense, but whether you want to call it effort, force, intensity or commitment, it has been lacking with the Celtics' defense.

Mike

[guava_wrench]

No legit 5 that controls the paint

And we had that last season when the defense was great?

In reality, trying to analyze the defense as the sum of the parts is not going to get us answers. We performed great last season. Was it ET? Change is style? Sully and the loss of our only big with a physical presence? Is it because we are going even smaller than last season not that ET is no longer part of the guard rotation? There is no way to answer that, but any time you change something that is performing well, there is a high chance of breaking it or at least regressing to the mean. Especially when our team is a bit of a Rube Goldberg machine. IT, our top player, is horrible on defense and our elite defenders aren't close to all star caliber players. Sure, AB has made all-defense, but do you think anyone in SA doubts Leonard or anyone in GS doubts Green the way many Celtics fans doubt the overall impact of AB?

[guava_wrench]

I think this could hurt us a lot in the playoffs. We are 8th in team pt differential due to a lot of success on offense. There is good reason to be skeptical that we can have similar success on offense in the playoffs. Considering how important IT is to our offense and how bad he is on defense, I have concerns.

I find comments about "effort" to be cheap and unsubstantiated. Every team goes there when they lose, which is silly because if every teams gives full effort, half the teams playing every day will still lose and blame effort. It is lazy analysis. The idea that defense is mostly effort is a myth. Speed, quickness, strength, coordination, and the ability to make split second reactions are not just in-game effort.

Both Brad Stevens and multiple players have come out and said that the team had to give better effort on the defensive end on many occassions. If the coach and team say that effort has been a problem I don't see how analyzing that effort has been a problem is cheap or unsubstantiated. Effort might not be the only reason, but it is definitely a reason for bad defense. Any coach and player in just about any sport will tell you that.

Every team with poor defense says this. It is empty talk, but what else are they going to say? Every says "need more effort", especially horrible teams, because there isn't much else to say without giving up.

It is empty sports cliche. Talk about effort when we see guys actually taking plays off. The Celtics don't. They are a hardworking group.

Do you actually watch any of these games?  No one is pulling a James Harden and just standing around waiting for the other team to shoot so they can go back to offense, but whether you want to call it effort, force, intensity or commitment, it has been lacking with the Celtics' defense.

Mike

So long as you aren't confusing outcome with effort, intensity, or commitment. If 30 teams are give 100% of all of those, half will still have below average defensive stats and their coaches will say they need to work harder, despite already being at 100%.

[trickybilly]

Surprised that noone has mentioned pace. Opposing teams are just taking more shots...

defensive rating is points per 100 posessions. Higher pace means greater fatigue, but it shouldnt affect things too much.

Right. Thanks for that.

What about transition buckets? If you play faster don't you give up more points in transition and off turnovers?

[MBunge]

I think this could hurt us a lot in the playoffs. We are 8th in team pt differential due to a lot of success on offense. There is good reason to be skeptical that we can have similar success on offense in the playoffs. Considering how important IT is to our offense and how bad he is on defense, I have concerns.

I find comments about "effort" to be cheap and unsubstantiated. Every team goes there when they lose, which is silly because if every teams gives full effort, half the teams playing every day will still lose and blame effort. It is lazy analysis. The idea that defense is mostly effort is a myth. Speed, quickness, strength, coordination, and the ability to make split second reactions are not just in-game effort.

Both Brad Stevens and multiple players have come out and said that the team had to give better effort on the defensive end on many occassions. If the coach and team say that effort has been a problem I don't see how analyzing that effort has been a problem is cheap or unsubstantiated. Effort might not be the only reason, but it is definitely a reason for bad defense. Any coach and player in just about any sport will tell you that.

Every team with poor defense says this. It is empty talk, but what else are they going to say? Every says "need more effort", especially horrible teams, because there isn't much else to say without giving up.

It is empty sports cliche. Talk about effort when we see guys actually taking plays off. The Celtics don't. They are a hardworking group.

Do you actually watch any of these games?  No one is pulling a James Harden and just standing around waiting for the other team to shoot so they can go back to offense, but whether you want to call it effort, force, intensity or commitment, it has been lacking with the Celtics' defense.

Mike

So long as you aren't confusing outcome with effort, intensity, or commitment. If 30 teams are give 100% of all of those, half will still have below average defensive stats and their coaches will say they need to work harder, despite already being at 100%.

Except there are these things called "analytics."  Maybe you've heard of them?  Well, everyone I've looked at clearly ranks the Celtics' defense as considerably worse this year than last.  We're talking about going from something like a top 5 defense to somewhere in the upper teens.

Now, if a team defense slides from #5 to #10, you might attribute that to some personnel changes or injuries.  Going from one of the best defenses in the league to below average at best is something more than that.

Again, do you actually watch these games?  And are you saying that you don't see ANY difference between the night in, night out defensive effort last season and this?

Mike

[Ilikesports17]

Surprised that noone has mentioned pace. Opposing teams are just taking more shots...

defensive rating is points per 100 posessions. Higher pace means greater fatigue, but it shouldnt affect things too much.

Right. Thanks for that.

What about transition buckets? If you play faster don't you give up more points in transition and off turnovers?

yeah thats possible, but we are actually playing slower this year. Last year we averaged 102.6 possesions a game which put us at 3rd fastest in the league. This year we average an even 100 possesions putting us at 17th in the league.

There could be something here, Im sure if you really dug through all the stats some interesting stuff would come up, I just dont quite have the time to do it right now.

[RockinRyA]

There hasn't been a "defensive decline" for the Boston Celtics. The NBA just spends all their money on three pointers.

The suggestion that the Boston Celtics don't play defense anymore implies that Stevens is incompetent, that he has lost control of his team and that he doesn't study the same stats we as fans have access to.

Stevens knows the rebounding and defensive numbers better than the fan base does and...he knows the NBA better. I am not a stat guy, I just watch the games and hope for the only stat that matters...648. Celtics win percentage takes care of everything doesn't it?

If stats are needed, look at last year and compare to now. (these 2015 stats are for the full season).
stats-PPG---OPPG
Cavs-104.3--98.3
TOR-102.7--98.2
MIA-100.0--98.4
ATL-102.8--98.2
BOS-105.7--102.5

Just look at that 2015 vintage defense! Dave Cowens would be proud.
As for this year? Coach Stevens and the rest of the league has gone down a different road.

stats-PPG---OPPG
Cavs-111.2--106
BOS-108.3--105.8
Wsh-107.8--105.5
Tor-109.2--105.7
Atl-104.1--104.4

Evidently, "we don't need no stinkin' defense".

The NBA doesn't have time for defense anymore and it will take all of us about three seconds to figure out the top poster boys for the new NBA all offensive game.

Why should Celtics fans be happy? W/L .648. Our coach helped interpret and execute the "new NBA" three point show and almost everyone else is trying to catch up.

This would've been true if our defensive numbers went down while still maintaining our rank. We were at the top last year now we are near the bottom. Teams are scoring more, yes, but our defense slipped as well.

[tenn_smoothie]

I think we are only one big away and health from challenging Cleveland and Golden State. One player. He doesn't have to be Cousins. He probably doesn't even have to be a starter. We will eventually have to replace Horford, but that's 3+ years away. When Amir is healthy and playing well, and yeah, Olynyk too, we become the fourth best team in the NBA.

We are missing one quality big and the tides of time.

Wow.  I'd say we are way more than one very good post player away from being a title contender on even footing with Cleveland and Golden State.

I would say we are at least 3 players away -
> one very good 5, great defender/rebounder & decent offensively
> an additional athletic, rebounding all-around post guy (Amir ain't the answer)
> finally, a pure spot-up shooter

[CelticPride2016]

I think we are only one big away and health from challenging Cleveland and Golden State. One player. He doesn't have to be Cousins. He probably doesn't even have to be a starter. We will eventually have to replace Horford, but that's 3+ years away. When Amir is healthy and playing well, and yeah, Olynyk too, we become the fourth best team in the NBA.

We are missing one quality big and the tides of time.

Wow.  I'd say we are way more than one very good post player away from being a title contender on even footing with Cleveland and Golden State.

I would say we are at least 3 players away -
> one very good 5, great defender/rebounder & decent offensively
> an additional athletic, rebounding all-around post guy (Amir ain't the answer)
> finally, a pure spot-up shooter

I am saying best case scenario, but in general, I'm not walking it back.

We are stacked at positions 1-3. I look at stuff as check offs. We're are we relatively all set?

pg Isaiah, Marcus
sg Marcus, Avery, Jaylen
sf Jae, Jaylen

That looks like a championship contending one through three for a roster projecting forward.

So it comes down to the front court.

Best case scenario has us three-fourths completed for bigs. We are missing a Darko if Darko had been better. A Perk without the stone hands. I know those rim protecting bigs don't grow on trees, but I feel we are one big away from perhaps winning it all.

We'd need great play from Smart, Olynyk, Amir, Horford and down the list. But I like what I see. I like Amir's motor lately. He seems refreshed and ready to get at it.

Horford scares me a little bit. I think Jaylen will get more efficient around the rim, but Horford is miserable with two footers. Maybe his arms are too long. But he is a form of Dwight Howard. He ain't gonna be good odds for around the rim. Horford is decent with outside shooting, although a lot of games he looks weak and hits the front rim.

I like when Al is at his best at defense. He can almost provide KG-like grit. Maybe he is pacing himself.

I also think people need to wait for the trading deadline and see if we polish off the next two games.

Once the roster is set, just kick back and see what happens. Right now it is quite enjoyable to look at the standings and see where we are. I like that 9-1 w-l stat for the last ten games.

[tenn_smoothie]

I think we are only one big away and health from challenging Cleveland and Golden State. One player. He doesn't have to be Cousins. He probably doesn't even have to be a starter. We will eventually have to replace Horford, but that's 3+ years away. When Amir is healthy and playing well, and yeah, Olynyk too, we become the fourth best team in the NBA.

We are missing one quality big and the tides of time.

Wow.  I'd say we are way more than one very good post player away from being a title contender on even footing with Cleveland and Golden State.

I would say we are at least 3 players away -
> one very good 5, great defender/rebounder & decent offensively
> an additional athletic, rebounding all-around post guy (Amir ain't the answer)
> finally, a pure spot-up shooter

I am saying best case scenario, but in general, I'm not walking it back.

We are stacked at positions 1-3. I look at stuff as check offs. We're are we relatively all set?

pg Isaiah, Marcus
sg Marcus, Avery, Jaylen
sf Jae, Jaylen

That looks like a championship contending one through three for a roster projecting forward.

So it comes down to the front court.

Best case scenario has us three-fourths completed for bigs. We are missing a Darko if Darko had been better. A Perk without the stone hands. I know those rim protecting bigs don't grow on trees, but I feel we are one big away from perhaps winning it all.

We'd need great play from Smart, Olynyk, Amir, Horford and down the list. But I like what I see. I like Amir's motor lately. He seems refreshed and ready to get at it.

Horford scares me a little bit. I think Jaylen will get more efficient around the rim, but Horford is miserable with two footers. Maybe his arms are too long. But he is a form of Dwight Howard. He ain't gonna be good odds for around the rim. Horford is decent with outside shooting, although a lot of games he looks weak and hits the front rim.

I like when Al is at his best at defense. He can almost provide KG-like grit. Maybe he is pacing himself.

I also think people need to wait for the trading deadline and see if we polish off the next two games.

Once the roster is set, just kick back and see what happens. Right now it is quite enjoyable to look at the standings and see where we are. I like that 9-1 w-l stat for the last ten games.

Sorry - I probably gave the wrong impression with my comment. I love our team. Most of all, I love their attitude and chemistry ............. plus, there seem to be a lot of guys in this group who really appreciate being a part of the Boston Celtics. I do not want to see that that chemistry broken up and I don't want to mortgage the future by trading our Brooklyn picks. I am very happy that Danny has shown so much patience - maybe he has learned from past impulsive blunders. Let's aim for the next 10 years, not for winning a couple of playoff series this season.

Having said that, we do need more talent and more firepower on defense and in rebounding. I so miss all those Celtic teams that simply pounded their opponents into dust on the boards. I think the way to combat all this small-ball mania currently holding power in the league is to add some old-school basketball to your team. Get the ball inside, play defense, rebound on the offensive end in combo with some of the modern style. It's too bad we get these choice draft picks at a time when so many of the best players in college are guards.

I would not say we are loaded at the 3. I love both guys, but they are limited offensively. If Durant had not been such as weak front-runner, he would have been the perfect fit on this team and we could have turned Crowder into a James Posey 6th Man of the Year player.

BTW, I want NO PART of Cousins - the guy is a tortured head case.