My hopes for Marcus Smart

[Ilikesports17]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

my fault.
TP for the reading comprehension difficulties on my end.

[LilRip]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

So if Deandre or Drummond were available, you would rather have Melo than either of those 2 guys, assuming they came at the same price?

 

[droopdog7]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

So if Deandre or Drummond were available, you would rather have Melo than either of those 2 guys, assuming they came at the same price?

Cousins is better than those guys.  Can't compare big to little, especially when the little is older.

[Rondo9]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is not more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

Why are you comparing James Harden who by the way improved his defense back to where it was when he was with the Thunder to Marcus Smart. Shouldn't a better comparison would be someone like Zach Lavine who's on Smart's level (and draft class)? Harden is a way different tier than Smart.

[LilRip]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

So if Deandre or Drummond were available, you would rather have Melo than either of those 2 guys, assuming they came at the same price?

Cousins is better than those guys.  Can't compare big to little, especially when the little is older.

Well, Cousins can play offense and defense which renders him an invalid example. On top of that, Melo plays the 4 a bunch so I don't know why that classifies him as "little". Besides, I thought the analogy we were going for was "offense > defense" and that "offense is much more important than defense"?

My point is, 1) Harden v. Smart is not an apt comparison, 2) defense is just as important as offense, and 3) dominant players are dominant, regardless if they contribute defensively or offensively.

But fine, lets play by your rules. "Big" to "big". Roughly the same age. Who are you taking: Andre Drummond/Deandre Jordan or Nikola Vucevic?

[droopdog7]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is not more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

Why are you comparing James Harden who by the way improved his defense back to where it was when he was with the Thunder to Marcus Smart. Shouldn't a better comparison would be someone like Zach Lavine who's on Smart's level (and draft class)? Harden is a way different tier than Smart.

Because people talk about smart like he's the James harden of defense.  Or even the wilt chamberlain of defense.  No?

My point is, the gratest defense in the world isn't as valuable as a great offensive player.  But people keep hanging in smarts defense like it's really really important.

[droopdog7]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

So if Deandre or Drummond were available, you would rather have Melo than either of those 2 guys, assuming they came at the same price?

Cousins is better than those guys.  Can't compare big to little, especially when the little is older.

Well, Cousins can play offense and defense which renders him an invalid example. On top of that, Melo plays the 4 a bunch so I don't know why that classifies him as "little". Besides, I thought the analogy we were going for was "offense > defense" and that "offense is much more important than defense"?

My point is, 1) Harden v. Smart is not an apt comparison, 2) defense is just as important as offense, and 3) dominant players are dominant, regardless if they contribute defensively or offensively.

But fine, lets play by your rules. "Big" to "big". Roughly the same age. Who are you taking: Andre Drummond/Deandre Jordan or Nikola Vucevic?

Melo is a wing.  I don't care that he plays pf in a small ball lineup.  He's a wing.  Centers are much rarer, and will always be at a premium.  Not to mention that Drummond is also still fairly young and can grow.  And, I know it sounds like I'm moving the goal posts, but a big defense is more important than a small defender.  They can impact the game much more.

Either, find guys at similar positions and let's see how it goes.  Drummond and Melo are not.

[LilRip]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

So if Deandre or Drummond were available, you would rather have Melo than either of those 2 guys, assuming they came at the same price?

Cousins is better than those guys.  Can't compare big to little, especially when the little is older.

Well, Cousins can play offense and defense which renders him an invalid example. On top of that, Melo plays the 4 a bunch so I don't know why that classifies him as "little". Besides, I thought the analogy we were going for was "offense > defense" and that "offense is much more important than defense"?

My point is, 1) Harden v. Smart is not an apt comparison, 2) defense is just as important as offense, and 3) dominant players are dominant, regardless if they contribute defensively or offensively.

But fine, lets play by your rules. "Big" to "big". Roughly the same age. Who are you taking: Andre Drummond/Deandre Jordan or Nikola Vucevic?

Melo is a wing.  I don't care that he plays pf in a small ball lineup.  He's a wing.  Centers are much rarer, and will always be at a premium.  Not to mention that Drummond is also still fairly young and can grow.  And, I know it sounds like I'm moving the goal posts, but a big defense is more important than a small defender.  They can impact the game much more.

Either, find guys at similar positions and let's see how it goes.  Drummond and Melo are not.

You missed the part where I asked Drummond or Vucevic.

And I must have missed the part where you said "offense is much more important than defense...but only among smalls". The fact that you had to add that caveat means it's not as "period. Point blank. End of story." as you claim.

Nevermind that someone like Kawhi Leonard was dominant defensively and won Finals MVP even before his offense caught up. Dominant players will be dominant. Players can make a huge impact offensively as well as defensively.

IMO, the reason people are tricked into thinking offense plays a much larger role than defense is because 1) it's easier to find a guy who's special on offense than a guy who's special on defense, and 2) they overlook the fact that most of these superstars are legit two-way players. Look at MJ, Tim Duncan, Kobe, KG, etc. Those guys were dominant on both ends of the floor.

If you're going to be a one-sided guy, you better be something ridiculously special on that end, the way Harden and IT are. The way Ben Wallace and Rodman were. Smart isn't there (yet?) and maybe he'll never reach that level of dominance. But in this scenario, it means Smart and Harden are not currently comparable.

[Spicoli]

I know Marcus was drafted 6th overall, and he will likely never become an all star level player, but to me he is a super role player in the mold of Derek Fisher, and Robert Horry. Tristan Thompson also fits into this category. These are the kind of guys that are above role player status, but below star level player status. They will help you win playoff series and championships. If this is what Marcus Smart is, then i am quite happy with that.

Oh, and he's by far my favorite player on the Celtics as well.

[droopdog7]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

So if Deandre or Drummond were available, you would rather have Melo than either of those 2 guys, assuming they came at the same price?

Cousins is better than those guys.  Can't compare big to little, especially when the little is older.

Well, Cousins can play offense and defense which renders him an invalid example. On top of that, Melo plays the 4 a bunch so I don't know why that classifies him as "little". Besides, I thought the analogy we were going for was "offense > defense" and that "offense is much more important than defense"?

My point is, 1) Harden v. Smart is not an apt comparison, 2) defense is just as important as offense, and 3) dominant players are dominant, regardless if they contribute defensively or offensively.

But fine, lets play by your rules. "Big" to "big". Roughly the same age. Who are you taking: Andre Drummond/Deandre Jordan or Nikola Vucevic?

Melo is a wing.  I don't care that he plays pf in a small ball lineup.  He's a wing.  Centers are much rarer, and will always be at a premium.  Not to mention that Drummond is also still fairly young and can grow.  And, I know it sounds like I'm moving the goal posts, but a big defense is more important than a small defender.  They can impact the game much more.

Either, find guys at similar positions and let's see how it goes.  Drummond and Melo are not.

You missed the part where I asked Drummond or Vucevic.

And I must have missed the part where you said "offense is much more important than defense...but only among smalls". The fact that you had to add that caveat means it's not as "period. Point blank. End of story." as you claim.

Nevermind that someone like Kawhi Leonard was dominant defensively and won Finals MVP even before his offense caught up. Dominant players will be dominant. Players can make a huge impact offensively as well as defensively.

IMO, the reason people are tricked into thinking offense plays a much larger role than defense is because 1) it's easier to find a guy who's special on offense than a guy who's special on defense, and 2) they overlook the fact that most of these superstars are legit two-way players. Look at MJ, Tim Duncan, Kobe, KG, etc. Those guys were dominant on both ends of the floor.

If you're going to be a one-sided guy, you better be something ridiculously special on that end, the way Harden and IT are. The way Ben Wallace and Rodman were. Smart isn't there (yet?) and maybe he'll never reach that level of dominance. But in this scenario, it means Smart and Harden are not currently comparable.

Drummond is actually averaging MORE points that Vucevic.  So yeah, I'll take Drummond.  I mentioned Cousins because he's not really known for his defense. 

[oldtype]

Thoughts on Smart

1) His defense needs to improve.  I know this sounds silly, but hear me out: Smart has elite defensive versatility but he doesn't have elite actual defense yet.  i.e. He can guard 3.5 positions (1, 2, 3, and some 4 in an emergency) at a competent level, but I feel like the only players he's actually good at guarding 1:1 are bigger, physical ball-handlers (players in the Harden/Westbrook mold, to the extent that anyone can actually guard Harden or Westbrook.)  He's still "just okay" at guarding super-fast point guards or bulky wings.  No doubt his ceiling on defense is Tony Allen, but he needs a lot more work to actually get there.

2) His best skill right now is actually playmaking.  We've all noticed at this point, but his passing is elite.  If he was being given starter minutes and a higher usage rate, I'm pretty confident that he'd be putting up Elfrid Payton levels of assist numbers and we'd be drooling all over him as a prospect. 

3) He still has all-star potential, but the key to that is finishing at the rim.  His passing and vision are so good that his pick-and-rolls have to be respected, but they're a lot easier to deal with when the defenders can assume that he's not going to be able to get to the rim and finish at a reliable clip.  If Smart becomes even an average finisher at the rim, he becomes a net plus on offense.  Couple that with elite defense, and he's an all-star level starting PG.

4) As an extension to 3), his shooting matters less than we think it does.  He's never going to be good enough at shooting threes that you have to respect the pull-up option, and even in his current ~30% state he's good enough and willing enough of a shooter that you can't just completely ignore him on off-ball catch-and-shoots.  He is not an MKG/MCW level bad shooter, and given his expected role as a distributor, any marginal improvement in his shooting skills should be considered gravy. 

TL;DR: Smart still has a narrow path to stardom, but it comes from doubling down on his strengths in defense and becoming a net positive on offense by consistently finishing at the rim.  His shooting doesn't really matter that much.

[CelticGuardian]

Smart's role on offense certainly is becoming more defined and I think that was a big frustration with him, ever since he got here he's been playing out of position and asked to do way too much that far exceed was he is capable of. I blame Stevens.

Like I've said before, expectations needed to be reset. I feel this fanbase is too defense happy and fail to realize the importance of overwhelming firepower. Smart is doing the right things now and helping the offense keep afloat with ball movement.

He might give up a bucket on defense but this is basketball IDK what people expect here? There will never be player that will stop an opposing team's possession every single time. We might as well give up on drafting or trading for that elusive, great Wall of USA right now.

[nickagneta]

Thoughts on Smart

1) His defense needs to improve.  I know this sounds silly, but hear me out: Smart has elite defensive versatility but he doesn't have elite actual defense yet.  i.e. He can guard 3.5 positions (1, 2, 3, and some 4 in an emergency) at a competent level, but I feel like the only players he's actually good at guarding 1:1 are bigger, physical ball-handlers (players in the Harden/Westbrook mold, to the extent that anyone can actually guard Harden or Westbrook.)  He's still "just okay" at guarding super-fast point guards or bulky wings.  No doubt his ceiling on defense is Tony Allen, but he needs a lot more work to actually get there.

2) His best skill right now is actually playmaking.  We've all noticed at this point, but his passing is elite.  If he was being given starter minutes and a higher usage rate, I'm pretty confident that he'd be putting up Elfrid Payton levels of assist numbers and we'd be drooling all over him as a prospect. 

3) He still has all-star potential, but the key to that is finishing at the rim.  His passing and vision are so good that his pick-and-rolls have to be respected, but they're a lot easier to deal with when the defenders can assume that he's not going to be able to get to the rim and finish at a reliable clip.  If Smart becomes even an average finisher at the rim, he becomes a net plus on offense.  Couple that with elite defense, and he's an all-star level starting PG.

4) As an extension to 3), his shooting matters less than we think it does.  He's never going to be good enough at shooting threes that you have to respect the pull-up option, and even in his current ~30% state he's good enough and willing enough of a shooter that you can't just completely ignore him on off-ball catch-and-shoots.  He is not an MKG/MCW level bad shooter, and given his expected role as a distributor, any marginal improvement in his shooting skills should be considered gravy. 

TL;DR: Smart still has a narrow path to stardom, but it comes from doubling down on his strengths in defense and becoming a net positive on offense by consistently finishing at the rim.  His shooting doesn't really matter that much.

Ummmm...yeah he is. His shooting ability is about as bad as it gets in this league

[Rondo9]

Let me end the thread the way I do many of them.  The anti Marcus smart is James harden.  Almost literally.  Harden is an mvp candidate year after year while smart is a role player.  Offense is much more important than individual defense.  Period, point blank, end of story.

How is that the end of story?

No one disagrees with that. Smart can be a super valuable player without being the frontrunner for the MVP award.

I mean if your criteria for judging a players value is that he isnt as valuable as a perennial MVP candidate, then you arent gonna like a lot of players.

Clearly everyone missed my point.  Let me clarify.  Earlier in the thread, it was asked why offense was considered more valuable than defense (or something like that).  People suggesting that a defensive MVP is the same, or almost the same, as an offensive one.  Never mind that smart is not as good defensively as many make him out to be. 

My anti smart analogy is simple.  Smart is all defense and little offense.  Harden is all offense and little defense.  No one would argue that harden is not more valuable and a better player than smart.  That is my way of explaining that offense is much more important than defense.

Why are you comparing James Harden who by the way improved his defense back to where it was when he was with the Thunder to Marcus Smart. Shouldn't a better comparison would be someone like Zach Lavine who's on Smart's level (and draft class)? Harden is a way different tier than Smart.

Because people talk about smart like he's the James harden of defense.  Or even the wilt chamberlain of defense.  No?

My point is, the gratest defense in the world isn't as valuable as a great offensive player.  But people keep hanging in smarts defense like it's really really important.

Who is even saying that come up with links or quotes besides defense is very important and Smart is on of the best at it

[hwangjini_1]

just as an update, smart's 2 pt% continues to be embarrassingly poor, coming in for the season at 39.2%.

next, his season average at 3 point shooting is 30.7%, poor but not embarrassingly so.

but what is of interest is that over the past 19 games, smart's 3 point shooting is 29 for 64, or, 45%.

could he have turned the corner on at least 3 point shooting? still to soon to know. but this is a trend worth watching. if he develops a credible 3 point shot, his value is much higher to the team.