Poll

Does Horfords 26.5 million have something to do with decreased defensive effort

Yes
No
Maybe

Author Topic: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D  (Read 2520 times)

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Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« on: January 25, 2017, 06:02:48 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Last year outside of Amir nobody made more than 7 million annually. That's off memory, correct me if I'm wrong.

 Everyone was on the same playing field. Not that I blame Horford at all, but it's human nature to be envious of someone making 20 more million than anyone else.

 On top of that Thomas and Bradley are better players and Crowder is close.

 Thoughts...
 

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 06:12:39 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 If you voted no, your forgetting about the power of Capitalism and human nature.

 People are petty and Greedy.

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 06:12:51 PM »

Offline colincb

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Total BS

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 06:56:31 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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Horford is not dynamic enough as either a defensive center or power forward to not need help. Al isn't what you'd call a bruising big. He needs a few athletic, physical players to cover his back. At present we don't have those players.   

If what you say is true, the Celtics made a huge mistake when they were considering his character.


Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 06:58:51 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Curry is getting paid 11M/Year. You see him complaining and playing bad?

Yeah, guys like IT/Bradley/Smart, etc. understand that they will get PAID when it's their time (FA), and same to Curry this summer, but if this is the reason our (Celtics) defense is playing poorly (and the other players envy Horford's contract), then boy this team has WAY bigger problems than we expected.

"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2017, 07:11:54 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Curry is getting paid 11M/Year. You see him complaining and playing bad?

Yeah, guys like IT/Bradley/Smart, etc. understand that they will get PAID when it's their time (FA), and same to Curry this summer, but if this is the reason our (Celtics) defense is playing poorly (and the other players envy Horford's contract), then boy this team has WAY bigger problems than we expected.


 It's human nature. It's not like we have bad guys. It is what it is.

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2017, 07:15:47 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Curry is getting paid 11M/Year. You see him complaining and playing bad?

Yeah, guys like IT/Bradley/Smart, etc. understand that they will get PAID when it's their time (FA), and same to Curry this summer, but if this is the reason our (Celtics) defense is playing poorly (and the other players envy Horford's contract), then boy this team has WAY bigger problems than we expected.


 It's human nature. It's not like we have bad guys. It is what it is.

So when guys like IT/Bradley and others get paid in the summer of 2018, should Jaylen Brown and others "quit" on the team and play poorly too?

It might be human nature, but it's also a business and the players understand that. If not, then this team is going downhill soon.
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2017, 07:30:40 PM »

Online Celtics4ever

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Quote
Crowder is close.

Nice joke, I really laughed at this one.

If this is case, we need to get rid of guys.

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2017, 08:33:48 PM »

Offline NHCelticsFan

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I think Al played more of a traditional 5 in Atlanta, which kept him off the perimeter more.  He seems to be playing more perimeter D this year and I don't think he is as well suited for that role as he might think he is. 

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 08:39:43 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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I speculate it has to do with everyone believing they're trade bait right now.
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Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2017, 08:42:59 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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This might be more plausible if Horford wasn't known as one of the best-respected teammates in the league.

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2017, 09:09:33 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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No.  The contract has nothing to do with it.

This is very simple.  The problem is we are playing 'small' way too much.   Or, more specifically, we aren't playing our three best big men enough.  Al, Amir and Kelly are far and away our best bigs and with very few exceptions, we are a much better team so long as we have 2 of those 3 guys on the court.

Here are the six 5-man units that have played at least 10 total minutes over the last 5 games, sorted by net rating:

IT+MS+JC+AH+KO   36.5 min,  113.3 DRtg,  +21.7 NetRtg*
IT+AB+JC+AH+AJ   12.9 min,   95.7 DRtg,  +16.8 NetRtg*
IT+MS+JC+AH+AJ   44.5 min,  110.8 DRtg,   +7.4 NetRtg*
IT+TR+MS+JC+AH   10.4 min,  130.4 DRtg,  -17.4 NetRtg
IT+MS+JC+AH+JM   11.0 min,  160.9 DRtg,  -24.5 NetRtg
IT+MS+JC+JJ+AH   13.2 min,  116.0 DRtg,  -27.5 NetRtg
 

The three lineups with a "*" all have two of Al, Amir or Kelly.   

Notice that not only are those three lineups all with a positive net rating, but they also have better defensive ratings.

The other three lineups all have what I would consider small front-courts.  And certainly a lineup with Jordan Mickey up front is going to be very short on both size and experience.

This isn't magic.   Any two-man combination of Al, Amir & Kelly is simply massively better as a front-court than any other two-man combination we can put out front.

This also isn't recent.   Here is the data for the entire year, using 25 minutes as the cut-off:

IT+AB+JC+AH+KO   59.2 min,  108.3 DRtg,  +19.4 NetRtg*
IT+AB+JC+JJ+AH   50.0 min,   97.1 DRtg,  +17.0 NetRtg
IT+AB+MS+JJ+AJ   20.2 min,   97.5 DRtg,  +13.0 NetRtg
MS+AB+JC+AH+KO   35.4 min,   90.3 DRtg,  +11.3 NetRtg*
IT+MS+JC+AH+AJ  101.0 min,  107.0 DRtg,  +10.7 NetRtg*
MS+AB+JC+AH+AJ   63.3 min,  111.6 DRtg,   +8.9 NetRtg*
IT+AB+JC+AH+AJ  251.4 min,  109.8 DRtg,   +5.9 NetRtg*
MS+TR+JB+JJ+KO   50.3 min,   89.5 DRtg,   +5.2 NetRtg
IT+MS+JC+AH+KO   61.8 min,  119.4 DRtg,   +4.4 NetRtg*
IT+AB+MS+KO+AJ   74.9 min,  103.8 DRtg,   -4.5 NetRtg*
IT+MS+JC+JJ+AH   20.9 min,  116.3 DRtg,   -7.0 NetRtg
IT+AB+MS+JC+AH   63.9 min,  127.1 DRtg,  -10.8 NetRtg
IT_MS+JB+JJ+KO   25.4 min,  114.0 DRtg,  -11.8 NetRtg


Of the seven lineups that have 2 out of the Al / Amir / Kelly trio on the floor, all but one has a positive net rating.  And even that one isn't all that deep into the negative.  And probably can be explained because while it has two of our true bigs, it is a lineup that has the dreaded 3-guard combo.

Now, there are a couple of lineups that don't feature two of those guys that have done pretty well.  The sample size on one is pretty small, though.  Both feature JJ, who is probably our next-runner-up 'big' in talent just outside our power trio.  The better of the two is basically JJ plus our 4 best players.

Some important points to take away from this:
  • Al's contract is not a factor.  Al Horford's name is on both good and poor defensive lineups.
  • Isaiah is not the problem on defense.  His name is also on both good and poor defensive lineups.
  • Basically, neither our net performance nor our defensive performance is ever about just one guy so all you folks out there who constantly like to finger-point at one player to blame (or to give too much credit to) need to chill and step into reality.    Most all of our rotation players have played in both excellent and in poor 5-man units.    It's the composition of our lineups that is most critical.
  • The overwhelming trends to take away is that our 5-man units tend to be better (a) when they have mostly starters and (b) when they have at least 2 out of the Al / Amir / Kelly trio on the floor.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2017, 09:24:25 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I believe in contract year bumps so I said yes. I do think he's less hungry now. But I mostly think it has to do with him being not very good.

To me he's in the Dominique Wilkins land right now

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2017, 09:53:43 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Oh yeah, Horford is a bum. Trade him.  ::)
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Poll: Does Al's 27 million have anything to do with poor D
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2017, 09:59:00 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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I said it as soon as it happened, but I don't think throwing $8million at a scrub like Zeller inspired a lot of starters making less than that. I doubt overpaying for Horford had that kind of impact. Al is an accomplished player getting his FA payday. Zeller's main accomplishment is he comes from Stevens' home state.