Would we have won yesterday with Bradley?

[celticsclay]

To me I think it is pretty clear we most likely we would have.

We led almost the entire game and their perimeter player (derozen) lit us up in the 4th quarter when we ran out of gas. Considering Bradley is a pretty good perimeter defender, having another player playing 30 minutes would have certainly helped with the team being gassed, and Bradley's shooting was really missed in the 4th quarter, it is hard to downplay his absence.

As frustrating as the game was it actually seemed pretty encouraging over all considering Toronto was at full strength and we were on their home floor.

On the flip side of that, I don't know what is up with our team and health. For being such a young team is seems like we are ALWAYS missing a player for injury or weird reason in these big games.

[Who]

I see things the same way. I don't think Toronto is better than this Celtics team and that Avery would have made a big difference last night.

[green_bballers13]

Yes, unless you believe that AB's marginal contribution is similar to what Marcus Smart and Gerald Green brought. While Gerald played well, I think that Avery would have prevented Derozan from hitting almost every shot down the stretch.

Toronto is better than the Celtics, but not by a lot. I think the Celtics at full health could beat them in a playoff series. That still doesn't count for much, however.

I don't buy the argument that a ECF appearance will attract top FA's. If the Celtics are a couple feet away from Toronto, they are still miles away from CLE and GSW.

[celticsclay]

Yes, unless you believe that AB's marginal contribution is similar to what Marcus Smart and Gerald Green brought. While Gerald played well, I think that Avery would have prevented Derozan from hitting almost every shot down the stretch.

Toronto is better than the Celtics, but not by a lot. I think the Celtics at full health could beat them in a playoff series. That still doesn't count for much, however.

I don't buy the argument that a ECF appearance will attract top FA's. If the Celtics are a couple feet away from Toronto, they are still miles away from CLE and GSW.

I am on the fence about this. I think there is at least some value of being one of the last 4 teams standing while everyone else, including all the players are at home watching without their own games to worry about. You could envision some NBA player watching and thinking, "wow their perimeter defense is great but they are just getting destroyed on the boards. If they had me they would win." I think the likelyhood of this kind of reaction probably increase 10 fold if it is a competitive series that is like 4-2 versus the Cavs.

BTW the Cavs do look more vulnerable than years past. They have the 4th best record in the league and their depth has definitely been damaged by losing Anderson, Jr Smith and Mo Williams for the year or regular season along with Delly as a backup point guard. Perhaps Korver will help, but it seems ominous that Lebron is playing his most minutes since his last year in Miami.

To be clear I don't think vulnerable means we could beat them, I am saying vulnerable in that we are more likely to win 2 games against them than in years past.

[Clench123]

We would've won if Jae Crowder played.  We didn't really need Avery to win that game.  We were missing two players.

[liam]

That's impossible to say. We lost on the defensive end and Bradley would've had an effect. We lost this game in the last 2 minutes with and inability to stop Tronto from scoring. We never even slowed them down. Bradley would've helped but the out come might have been the same. No way to tell.

[bmac934]

I think we 100% win if Bradley plays.  Demar Derozan played phenomenal and Im not taking anything away from him personally but in my honest opinion (and I dont expect too many to agree with me) I think Derozans whining to the refs also had an outcome on the game.  I also want to acknowledge we completely collapsed the last 2 minutes of the game.  But i still think Derozans whining had an effect on the outcome (indirectly).

[Ogaju]

would Bradley have done anything with with V's 23 rebounds and numerous block shots and shot affecting presence? I don't think so, therefore I cannot answer your question.

All I can say is that Bradley playing would have changed the complexion of the case. We would have played differently, maybe TOR plays with more urgency. You never know.

[Moranis]

I'm going to say no.  Chris Forsberg seems to agree.

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4724951/celtics-are-still-chasing-the-raptors-in-the-east

Some key factual support from the article

"During Stevens' four-year tenure, Boston is 4-10 against Toronto and has lost five of the past six meetings."

"A Celtics team that has routinely taken care of business against lesser foes this season -- Boston is 0-4 against the Raptors and Cavaliers but 13-3 versus the rest of the East -- looked a bit disheveled after the Raptors rallied Tuesday. It seems fair to wonder if there's a bit of a mental hurdle that these Celtics must overcome to truly compete with the Raptors."

"Another loss to a quality foe will mean a rehash of Boston's struggles against good teams this season. Boston is 0-8 against the teams ahead of it in the league standings. The Celtics are still searching for a win against a truly elite opponent. "

[celticsclay]

I'm going to say no.  Chris Forsberg seems to agree.

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4724951/celtics-are-still-chasing-the-raptors-in-the-east

Some key factual support from the article

"During Stevens' four-year tenure, Boston is 4-10 against Toronto and has lost five of the past six meetings."

"A Celtics team that has routinely taken care of business against lesser foes this season -- Boston is 0-4 against the Raptors and Cavaliers but 13-3 versus the rest of the East -- looked a bit disheveled after the Raptors rallied Tuesday. It seems fair to wonder if there's a bit of a mental hurdle that these Celtics must overcome to truly compete with the Raptors."

"Another loss to a quality foe will mean a rehash of Boston's struggles against good teams this season. Boston is 0-8 against the teams ahead of it in the league standings. The Celtics are still searching for a win against a truly elite opponent. "

1) Not surprising you think this, it is an opportunity to be negative about the Celtics.
2) It is pretty irrelevant how we did 16 games ago against them. Do you realize the start of this "streak" referenced in this article includes a game where our starting lineup was Victor Favereni, Gerald Wallace, Brandon Bass, Jeff Green and Bradley and Amir Johnson was starting against us?
3) We have played them twice this year when just about everyone would believe we have been better than we were last year or two years ago. Unfortunately, for game 1 we were missing IT and this time we were missing Bradley. Considering we led both games in the 4th, it is more than a fair question to ask if we would have beat them at full strength (and the data from this year suggests we would).
4) How come you omitted this "Having Avery Bradley, who missed his second straight game Tuesday due to an Achilles strain, back certainly wouldn't hurt Boston's ability to contain Toronto's All-Star backcourt. Marcus Smart played well in Bradley's starting role but is an obvious luxury in a reserve role where he can maintain Boston's defensive intensity as the starters go out." Doesn't seem like Forsberg agrees with you fully cause he is at least acknowledging he played a factor. omitted that part and including other parts that support your view is a bit misleading. The question was specifically about bradley and the win and you leave out the one part Forsberg discusses the impact of Bradley/ Pretty weak move.

[Kuberski33]

Until Danny addresses the rebounding/physicality issue at the 4/5, the Celtics will continue to blow games like last night.  We got destroyed by Valenciunas. Bradley would have made no difference. 

Maybe on paper it's almost even.  In a playoff series Toronto wins in 5 or 6.  Our bigs are too [dang] soft.

[Donoghus]

Hell, we probably should've won last night without him.   That last two minutes or so was basically an implosion exacerbated by DeRozan being in the zone .

So to answer the OP, sure, I don't see why not. 

[Moranis]

I'm going to say no.  Chris Forsberg seems to agree.

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4724951/celtics-are-still-chasing-the-raptors-in-the-east

Some key factual support from the article

"During Stevens' four-year tenure, Boston is 4-10 against Toronto and has lost five of the past six meetings."

"A Celtics team that has routinely taken care of business against lesser foes this season -- Boston is 0-4 against the Raptors and Cavaliers but 13-3 versus the rest of the East -- looked a bit disheveled after the Raptors rallied Tuesday. It seems fair to wonder if there's a bit of a mental hurdle that these Celtics must overcome to truly compete with the Raptors."

"Another loss to a quality foe will mean a rehash of Boston's struggles against good teams this season. Boston is 0-8 against the teams ahead of it in the league standings. The Celtics are still searching for a win against a truly elite opponent. "

1) Not surprising you think this, it is an opportunity to be negative about the Celtics.
2) It is pretty irrelevant how we did 16 games ago against them. Do you realize the start of this "streak" referenced in this article includes a game where our starting lineup was Victor Favereni, Gerald Wallace, Brandon Bass, Jeff Green and Bradley and Amir Johnson was starting against us?
3) We have played them twice this year when just about everyone would believe we have been better than we were last year or two years ago. Unfortunately, for game 1 we were missing IT and this time we were missing Bradley. Considering we led both games in the 4th, it is more than a fair question to ask if we would have beat them at full strength (and the data from this year suggests we would).
4) How come you admitted this "Having Avery Bradley, who missed his second straight game Tuesday due to an Achilles strain, back certainly wouldn't hurt Boston's ability to contain Toronto's All-Star backcourt. Marcus Smart played well in Bradley's starting role but is an obvious luxury in a reserve role where he can maintain Boston's defensive intensity as the starters go out." Doesn't seem like Forsberg agrees with you fully. Not even bothering to focus on accuracy anymore when being negative are you?

Carroll didn't play for the Raptors in the first game, and they haven't had Sullinger all year.  Injuries happen, but it is clear, the Raptors are just a flat out better team than the Celtics are.  They were last year and they were the year before that as well.  There were plenty of parts of the story I didn't post.  I mean he also said this "Toronto big man Jonas Valanciunas scored 18 points and grabbed 23 rebounds, including 11 on the offensive glass, which reminded Boston that its size and rebounding deficiencies are still major concerns against top competition."  or this "It's prudent to not overreact to one loss on the road against a quality opponent, but Tuesday's loss is a reminder that Boston has work to do. The Celtics are still trying to claw their way onto the level of teams such as the Cavaliers and Raptors in the East."

[guava_wrench]

Impossible to know. The odds are we still lose because we were in Toronto playing a better team.

If we are going to ask how a different lineup would have performed, what happened last night is largely irrelevant. The entire game would have been different.

[celticsclay]

Impossible to know. The odds are we still lose because we were in Toronto playing a better team.

If we are going to ask how a different lineup would have performed, what happened last night is largely irrelevant. The entire game would have been different.

This is all true, but would also make an hypothetical irrelevant because of the butterfly effect. I feel like playing Smart 8 extra minutes than he is used to without Bradley he was pretty wiped because of how intense he normally plays in his minutes. It is pretty tough to not watch a team get outscored by 12 in the 4th quarter and not wonder if the team was tired from missing one of their better players and having a shortened rotation.