New Isaiah Thomas Appreciation Thread

[DefenseWinsChamps]

We could talk about his 27 points and 6 assists per game, his clutchness. his efficiency from the free throw line, his timely buckets, his heart.

We could talk about how he is 11th in per, how he has improved his effort on defense, his uncanny ability to finish, or his leadership.

But, by far, the most impressive thing about his numbers are his lack of turnovers.The only two players who have fewer turnovers than him while also being in the top 15 in the NBA in scoring are Leonard and Durant, neither of whom have as many assists.

Or, to put it another way, he is 7th in the NBA in usage rate, but out of the top 40 players in usage rate, only 3 have a lower turnover rate: Zack Randolph, Bradley Beal, and Jabari Parker - none of whom pass the ball nearly as much as he does.

In fact, the only players who have at least a 58% true shooting percentage, 30% usage rate, and less than a 10% turnover rate since 2002 are Damian Lillard (16-17 so far), Lebron James (09-10), Dwyane Wade (09-10), Lebron James (08-09), and Kobe Bryant (06-07). Lebron won the MVP for both of those seasons. Kobe came in 3rd and Wade in 5th for their seasons.

Oh, and right now, Thomas is 59.2 TS%, 32.2% usage rate, and 7.1 turnover rate. No player has ever done that for a full season.

His efficiency is startling. His lack of turnovers is superhuman. We are literally seeing one of the most efficient-high-usage seasons in the last 15 years.

It will be extremely difficult to maintain this level of play and his defense is still below average. But while it lasts, and while he flirts with a historic season, let's appreciate great basketball from a great basketball player.

[PhoSita]

Here here! 

We haven't had a pure, go-get-those-buckets type of scorer on the Celts like Isaiah since Paul Pierce was in his prime.

Just as back then, we can nit pick his tendencies and look for the flaws (remember all those Pierce-Isos at the end of games?), but we should definitely appreciate how lucky we are to get to watch a guy like that go to work every game.  It'll be gone before we know it and we'll be back to hoping that flawed 20-25 year old prospects will turn a corner.

[tankcity!]

You won me over on IT. TP!

[CelticGuardian]

I still think him being 5'9" and doing what he does is as incredible as the Steph Curry phenomena. I saw IT at Niketown last month, he was trying to get some Space Jam's early. Even though he's shorter than me, guy is REALLY WIDE could probably post up half of us on here.

[ACF]

https://youtu.be/_ZQmzWX07j4

(Highlights from the Memphis game)

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I still think him being 5'9" and doing what he does is as incredible as the Steph Curry phenomena. I saw IT at Niketown last month, he was trying to get some Space Jam's early. Even though he's shorter than me, guy is REALLY WIDE could probably post up half of us on here.

Yeah, I think one of the under-the-radar developments was the summer when he signed with the Suns and he added 10-15 pounds of muscle. Guy is strong.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Seriously, though. If IT was 6'3'', but played the same level defense, would he be viewed differently?

Answer: Yes. Because Damian Lillard has historically had the same numbers (offense and defense) as Isaiah, down to their advanced stats, and he is viewed as a franchise cornerstone. Even this year, check out their opponents shooting comparison.

Thomas vs Lillard
Less than 5 feet 59% / 58%
5-9 feet 39% / 42%
10-14 feet 35% / 43%
15-19 feet 42% / 45%
20-24 feet 40% / 40%
25-29 feet 36% 43%

On pick and roll plays, Thomas allows .78 ppp to Lillard's .95 ppp.

On isos, Thomas allows 1.33 ppp to Lillard's 1.14 ppp.

On handoffs, Thomas allows .9 ppp to Lillard's .92 ppp.

On spotups, Thomas allows .94 ppp to Lillard's 1.07 ppp

In fact, I think you could argue from some stats that he is a better defender than Lillard.

[Ilikesports17]

Seriously, though. If IT was 6'3'', but played the same level defense, would he be viewed differently?

Answer: Yes. Because Damian Lillard has historically had the same numbers (offense and defense) as Isaiah, down to their advanced stats, and he is viewed as a franchise cornerstone. Even this year, check out their opponents shooting comparison.

Thomas vs Lillard
Less than 5 feet 59% / 58%
5-9 feet 39% / 42%
10-14 feet 35% / 43%
15-19 feet 42% / 45%
20-24 feet 40% / 40%
25-29 feet 36% 43%

On pick and roll plays, Thomas allows .78 ppp to Lillard's .95 ppp.

On isos, Thomas allows 1.33 ppp to Lillard's 1.14 ppp.

On handoffs, Thomas allows .9 ppp to Lillard's .92 ppp.

On spotups, Thomas allows .94 ppp to Lillard's 1.07 ppp

In fact, I think you could argue from some stats that he is a better defender than Lillard.

He would be viewed differently, because being 6'3" is relevant.

Kyrie Irving and Dame are/were both awful defenders who were dominant scorers. Isaiah is the same thing.

However, Isaiah's defensive issues are almost all rooted in the fact that he is 5'9". His defensive workrate is fine. Lillard and Irving are both pretty lazy defenders, whose physical tools should allow them to be good ones.

The difference is relevant because in the playoffs Kyrie and Dame can (or should be able to) lock in on defense for a few weeks and become solid-good defenders while Isaiah cant ramp up his defense nearly as easily.

We saw this last year when Kyrie was all of a sudden a competent defender in the finals.

now, I still think Thomas is indeed underrated because of his height, but some of it is warranted.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Seriously, though. If IT was 6'3'', but played the same level defense, would he be viewed differently?

Answer: Yes. Because Damian Lillard has historically had the same numbers (offense and defense) as Isaiah, down to their advanced stats, and he is viewed as a franchise cornerstone. Even this year, check out their opponents shooting comparison.

Thomas vs Lillard
Less than 5 feet 59% / 58%
5-9 feet 39% / 42%
10-14 feet 35% / 43%
15-19 feet 42% / 45%
20-24 feet 40% / 40%
25-29 feet 36% 43%

On pick and roll plays, Thomas allows .78 ppp to Lillard's .95 ppp.

On isos, Thomas allows 1.33 ppp to Lillard's 1.14 ppp.

On handoffs, Thomas allows .9 ppp to Lillard's .92 ppp.

On spotups, Thomas allows .94 ppp to Lillard's 1.07 ppp

In fact, I think you could argue from some stats that he is a better defender than Lillard.

He would be viewed differently, because being 6'3" is relevant.

Kyrie Irving and Dame are/were both awful defenders who were dominant scorers. Isaiah is the same thing.

However, Isaiah's defensive issues are almost all rooted in the fact that he is 5'9". His defensive workrate is fine. Lillard and Irving are both pretty lazy defenders, whose physical tools should allow them to be good ones.

The difference is relevant because in the playoffs Kyrie and Dame can (or should be able to) lock in on defense for a few weeks and become solid-good defenders while Isaiah cant ramp up his defense nearly as easily.

We saw this last year when Kyrie was all of a sudden a competent defender in the finals.

now, I still think Thomas is indeed underrated because of his height, but some of it is warranted.

Kyrie has shown he can. Damian never has. I think you are underestimating the power of bad habits.

[vjcsmoke]

IT just blew it up for 44 points in our OT comeback win against the Grizz.

He's a legit star guys.

He also showed that to us in the playoffs.

IT is just fine as one of our big 3, the problem is we don't have a 3rd amigo/star for him to play with.

Let's can the talk about trading IT.  He's a unique player and we're lucky to have him.

We just need a 3rd guy that's also a go to scorer so we have more options in the closing minutes of games during crunch time.

Horford missed another bunny in the 4th by about half a second that could have won it for us, obviously he's never going to be a 'closer' type.

[Ilikesports17]

Seriously, though. If IT was 6'3'', but played the same level defense, would he be viewed differently?

Answer: Yes. Because Damian Lillard has historically had the same numbers (offense and defense) as Isaiah, down to their advanced stats, and he is viewed as a franchise cornerstone. Even this year, check out their opponents shooting comparison.

Thomas vs Lillard
Less than 5 feet 59% / 58%
5-9 feet 39% / 42%
10-14 feet 35% / 43%
15-19 feet 42% / 45%
20-24 feet 40% / 40%
25-29 feet 36% 43%

On pick and roll plays, Thomas allows .78 ppp to Lillard's .95 ppp.

On isos, Thomas allows 1.33 ppp to Lillard's 1.14 ppp.

On handoffs, Thomas allows .9 ppp to Lillard's .92 ppp.

On spotups, Thomas allows .94 ppp to Lillard's 1.07 ppp

In fact, I think you could argue from some stats that he is a better defender than Lillard.

He would be viewed differently, because being 6'3" is relevant.

Kyrie Irving and Dame are/were both awful defenders who were dominant scorers. Isaiah is the same thing.

However, Isaiah's defensive issues are almost all rooted in the fact that he is 5'9". His defensive workrate is fine. Lillard and Irving are both pretty lazy defenders, whose physical tools should allow them to be good ones.

The difference is relevant because in the playoffs Kyrie and Dame can (or should be able to) lock in on defense for a few weeks and become solid-good defenders while Isaiah cant ramp up his defense nearly as easily.

We saw this last year when Kyrie was all of a sudden a competent defender in the finals.

now, I still think Thomas is indeed underrated because of his height, but some of it is warranted.

Kyrie has shown he can. Damian never has. I think you are underestimating the power of bad habits.

Damian hasnt yet, hes still got the physical tools to be better than Thomas and that increases his value.

Again, in general you are correct. I think Dame is overrated and Isaiah underrated. However, if Dame and Isaiah have identical defensive performances, I think the tiebreaker goes to Dame because if he can get someone to kick his ass in gear he has the potential to improve as a defender.

You correctly argue the larger point that Isaiahs defensive flaws are overstated because of his size and I (hopefully correctly) argue the much smaller point that some level of attention must be paid to physical tools regardless of performance.

[Ilikesports17]

IT just blew it up for 44 points in our OT comeback win against the Grizz.

He's a legit star guys.

He also showed that to us in the playoffs.

IT is just fine as one of our big 3, the problem is we don't have a 3rd amigo/star for him to play with.

Let's can the talk about trading IT.  He's a unique player and we're lucky to have him.

We just need a 3rd guy that's also a go to scorer so we have more options in the closing minutes of games during crunch time.

Horford missed another bunny in the 4th by about half a second that could have won it for us, obviously he's never going to be a 'closer' type.

We dont just need a third guy, we need a first guy. We need ideally a top 5 and at the very least a top 10 player.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

IT just blew it up for 44 points in our OT comeback win against the Grizz.

He's a legit star guys.

He also showed that to us in the playoffs.

IT is just fine as one of our big 3, the problem is we don't have a 3rd amigo/star for him to play with.

Let's can the talk about trading IT.  He's a unique player and we're lucky to have him.

We just need a 3rd guy that's also a go to scorer so we have more options in the closing minutes of games during crunch time.

Horford missed another bunny in the 4th by about half a second that could have won it for us, obviously he's never going to be a 'closer' type.

We dont just need a third guy, we need a first guy. We need ideally a top 5 and at the very least a top 10 player.

To redirect away from your "woe-is-us-we're-never-good-enough" sentiment and to the topic of this thread, I think you could argue that Thomas has played like a top 10 player this year.

[Phantom255x]

Let me ask you all something. We had Paul Pierce and didn't win a championship. THEN we added KG and Ray Allen and the rest was history. Did people want PP34 traded or let go before the summer of 2007 happened?

Don't you think the GOAL should be to BUILD with IT? Instead of just letting him go (trading him away) because we *may* get Fultz.. Just a thought.

[vjcsmoke]

Let me ask you all something. We had Paul Pierce and didn't win a championship. THEN we added KG and Ray Allen and the rest was history. Did people want PP34 traded or let go before the summer of 2007 happened?

Don't you think the GOAL should be to BUILD with IT? Instead of just letting him go (trading him away) because we *may* get Fultz.. Just a thought.

TP.  This is how I feel.  IT is a core guy that you can build a championship around.  We're one big star away.  This is Celtics pre-KG.  That's how I feel.  We can build with IT and Horford as core guys.  Bradley and Crowder are starters.  We need to find that 5th player who's a star and completes the puzzle.