Author Topic: Negativity is ruining the experience  (Read 5049 times)

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Negativity is ruining the experience
« on: December 16, 2016, 03:37:19 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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We've had an enormous amount of bad luck so far with injuries. We have lost our two best players for a significant number of games.

Last year was not a great regular season either until the second half of the year and mostly it was the month of February when the team solidified itself as a better than mediocre squad.

2015-16
October 1-1
November 9-7
December 8-6
January 9-8

Through January of last year we had compiled a mediocre record of 27-22.

Those already nostalgic for last year don't seem to remember that we were not having that good of a year until February when we went 9-3.

Then in March we went 7-7 and finished April 5-2.

We are 13-12. We only have to go 14-10 in the next 24 games to match last year.

I thought we'd have a number of runs this year in which the Celtics win nine out of twelve games. If we can do that twice and the rest at .500, we will end the year with 47 or 48 wins. I would usually concede that as a treadmill, but we have so many young players and a potential top five pick arriving in the next two years. Danny also has things lined up to add another top free agent next off-season. The sky is not falling.

I thought we'd be in more of a flow at this point, but I don't know of any team that can lose its top two players and other key rotation guys and not find itself scrambling for home court.

This is a bridge within the year. We have seen this happen every season of the Brad Stevens era. Kids tend to get emotional over wins and losses. We're supposed to be the adults.

What have we learned?

Due to injuries and a tough opening schedule, we are currently vulnerable against good to great teams.

Our bigs situation is an utter mess and Brad seems as confused as any of us. He can't make up his mind between Olynk, Jerebko, Amir and Zeller, so he plays them all. The same thing happened when Danny traded for Brandan Wright. It became experimenting rather than firing on all cylinders.

As one of Olynyk's biggest fans, I am deeply disappointed in his apparent inability to take the next step. His inconsistency has hurt us as much as losing Isaiah or Horford. Zeller has run his course and is basically a dead man walking as a Celtic. The same also seems to apply to James Young and Jordan Mickey. A guy like Demetrius Jackson may not even have a slot next year as there will be new picks and perhaps Zizac will be on the C's later this year or next year. Gerald Green probably shouldn't be looking into the Boston housing market. I don't see him figuring it out as a Celtic.

Jerebko is okay, but he doesn't seem to have the talent of Olynyk. They sort of create redundancy. Last year was Sullinger's final exam for the long-term. He flunked out. The same is currently happening for Olynyk this year. I am not ready to voice an opinion on him. I do think he's on the clock, however.

I like Brad Stevens. It's too easy to critique coaches. Yet, this is what I would do.

Bench Amir. I think it's okay to have one starter who isn't that great on offense. But Amir plus Crowder does not instill much confidence for half of the court. I'd start Olynyk with Horford and stick to it unless Kelly consistently fails. Stop bouncing bigs around with a rotating doghouse?

Trade or release Zeller or Mickey and bring on Zizac for the second half.

Brown is not ready to start but keep forcing him into the rotation. Stop messing around with small ball, those three guard lineups. Marcus Smart is not a small forward. He is good for switching off on them, but that is all. I don't feel much confidence when I see three guards on the floor at once.

Use Brown as a shooting guard when appropriate while he is young like what happened with Pierce early in his career.

You can't teach height or talent.

Things tend to work themselves out. Lose the negativity and never forget the big picture. Don't box this year in as a failure until it's over and they failed. Or if the team does turn it around and ends up towards 50 wins and a playoff three seed, don't act like you expected it to happen.

This forum used to be nothing much more than negative posts on our lacking stars and heading for treadmills. Others wanted us to tank.

I see us as still on the same trajectory which has us contending sooner rather than later for a title.

I am not yet willing to say we have no chance to win it all this year. There is still the mid-season trading deadline to pass. We have many open questions remaining with the current roster, e.g. is Olynyk someone we want to return?

It's about four hours to go until game time. I think people should lighten up. It's not that difficult to win 48 games. It's impossible to declare this team as anything but an unfinished product. They deserve a whole season to see what can develop and not have a fan base which freaks out after every loss.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2016, 03:42:36 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Rick Pitino agrees, TP.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2016, 03:56:09 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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I see us as still on the same trajectory which has us contending sooner rather than later for a title.

I am not yet willing to say we have no chance to win it all this year. There is still the mid-season trading deadline to pass. ...
I like your optimism, but I don't see a scenario where the C's win a championship this year, no matter what trade Ainge makes.   I challenge you to give me that scenario with this simple caveat: LeBron, Durant and Curry are not being traded.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2016, 05:27:00 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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The trading deadline, where the can will get kicked down the road ...

Again.

Can't give up any youth, you know.

Rinse, repeat.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2016, 05:33:40 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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...

I see us as still on the same trajectory which has us contending sooner rather than later for a title.

I am not yet willing to say we have no chance to win it all this year. There is still the mid-season trading deadline to pass. ...
I like your optimism, but I don't see a scenario where the C's win a championship this year, no matter what trade Ainge makes.   I challenge you to give me that scenario with this simple caveat: LeBron, Durant and Curry are not being traded.

I still say a Boogie trade makes us contenders, specifically:

Boston: Boogie, Collison, Casspi

Sacramento: Amir, Brown, Rozier, 2017 Brooklyn swap, Memphis pick, Clippers pick

I think you can legitimately say that this lineup is a true contender:

PG: IT, Collison
SG: Bradley, Smart
SF: Crowder, Casspi
PF: Horford, JJ
C: Cousins, KO

Solves our weakest areas while providing excellent matchups that both Cleveland and GS can't match downlow.
Recovering Joe Skeptic, but inching towards a relapse.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2016, 06:40:41 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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...

I see us as still on the same trajectory which has us contending sooner rather than later for a title.

I am not yet willing to say we have no chance to win it all this year. There is still the mid-season trading deadline to pass. ...
I like your optimism, but I don't see a scenario where the C's win a championship this year, no matter what trade Ainge makes.   I challenge you to give me that scenario with this simple caveat: LeBron, Durant and Curry are not being traded.

I still say a Boogie trade makes us contenders, specifically:

Boston: Boogie, Collison, Casspi

Sacramento: Amir, Brown, Rozier, 2017 Brooklyn swap, Memphis pick, Clippers pick

I think you can legitimately say that this lineup is a true contender:

PG: IT, Collison
SG: Bradley, Smart
SF: Crowder, Casspi
PF: Horford, JJ
C: Cousins, KO

Solves our weakest areas while providing excellent matchups that both Cleveland and GS can't match downlow.
I think that is the only realistic scenario that makes us a contender this year but we wouldn't be a favorite.  The risk is that Cousins turns out to be a malcontent and/or decides to leave after next season.  So we might only be contenders for the next two playoffs. 

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2016, 06:52:02 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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I see us as still on the same trajectory which has us contending sooner rather than later for a title.

I am not yet willing to say we have no chance to win it all this year. There is still the mid-season trading deadline to pass. ...
I like your optimism, but I don't see a scenario where the C's win a championship this year, no matter what trade Ainge makes.   I challenge you to give me that scenario with this simple caveat: LeBron, Durant and Curry are not being traded.

I still say a Boogie trade makes us contenders, specifically:

Boston: Boogie, Collison, Casspi

Sacramento: Amir, Brown, Rozier, 2017 Brooklyn swap, Memphis pick, Clippers pick

I think you can legitimately say that this lineup is a true contender:

PG: IT, Collison
SG: Bradley, Smart
SF: Crowder, Casspi
PF: Horford, JJ
C: Cousins, KO

Solves our weakest areas while providing excellent matchups that both Cleveland and GS can't match downlow.

Not usually one for hating on Zeller, but any trade needs to have his contract in it.
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2016, 07:02:51 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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Rick Pitino agrees, TP.

That team wasn't too bad as soon as Pitino quit like a baby.

We should technically be okay if we take care of the extra home games. We are holding our own on the road so far.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2016, 07:11:57 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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...

I see us as still on the same trajectory which has us contending sooner rather than later for a title.

I am not yet willing to say we have no chance to win it all this year. There is still the mid-season trading deadline to pass. ...
I like your optimism, but I don't see a scenario where the C's win a championship this year, no matter what trade Ainge makes.   I challenge you to give me that scenario with this simple caveat: LeBron, Durant and Curry are not being traded.

Okay, I agree for the most part. But sometimes non-superpower teams win it. Everyone talks up the no-name Pistons or Dallas shocking LeBron.

I heard Isaiah is back tonight. Let's see what Brad can do with a healthy roster.

A lot of big ifs need to occur for us to win it all. I think it can be done without trading.

Assume everyone is healthy. The deep quality roster has us cruising in with the #3 seed, say 52 wins.

Isaiah must provide solid defense for a little guy.
Brown must be a solid rotation backup for Crowder and maybe some shooting guard.
All guys we rely on must produce.... Horford, Bradley. That's it. Horford, Avery and Isaiah are our big three. Which leads to the next big if. Marcus Smart must get it done.

These are all plausible.

Olynyk needs to take a step. Maybe we should pray.
Bring on Zizac or another real center, please.
Amir could be it. I am very confused why he isn't stepping up and performing leadership and advanced stats.

The more I rant on, I can see how things can seem negative.

I will use the next 20 minutes to pray for Gino Time and a great win against Charlotte. I think that's who we play.

It'll be another chance to listen to Tommy. He is always entertaining.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2016, 07:34:00 PM »

Offline walker834

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Larry Bird is not walking through that door folks. Mchale isn't walking through that door.  Neither is Robert Parish and if they do they'd be gray and old like your grandma.  I added that last part.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2016, 07:39:18 PM »

Offline alewilliam789

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...

I see us as still on the same trajectory which has us contending sooner rather than later for a title.

I am not yet willing to say we have no chance to win it all this year. There is still the mid-season trading deadline to pass. ...
I like your optimism, but I don't see a scenario where the C's win a championship this year, no matter what trade Ainge makes.   I challenge you to give me that scenario with this simple caveat: LeBron, Durant and Curry are not being traded.

I still say a Boogie trade makes us contenders, specifically:

Boston: Boogie, Collison, Casspi

Sacramento: Amir, Brown, Rozier, 2017 Brooklyn swap, Memphis pick, Clippers pick

I think you can legitimately say that this lineup is a true contender:

PG: IT, Collison
SG: Bradley, Smart
SF: Crowder, Casspi
PF: Horford, JJ
C: Cousins, KO

Solves our weakest areas while providing excellent matchups that both Cleveland and GS can't match downlow.

If we could do that that would be amazing. That's like the perfect scenario for the Celtics right there.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2016, 01:05:29 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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I agree with the idea it is too risky to trade for Cousins. Too many of our best players are not ready. If everyone was like Avery Bradley with already accomplished leaps, then fine, roll the dice for the missing center piece to pair with Horford.

We'd have to give up so much to get him. All the marbles would depend on Cousins, an aging Horford and the little guy.

I would wait a year or two to make such a deal. We are already rolling the dice with Jaylen Brown. Al Horford is not the kind of guy who is going to complain about Danny's GM work. I doubt it. He never attained the glory of a KG or Charles Barkley where the pressure kept building. In that, if they were so great, why didn't they ever win it all?

Demarcus Cousins has never been in a playoff game. Talk about negativity and his picture is in the dictionary. I remember when he tossed Marcus Smart to the ground out of frustration. I do not like dirty players or those who play lazy. I don't see Cousins as a winner like Rondo was in which you accept the person's quirks because all they want to do is win.

The other problem is we have no center coach. Danny and Brad were guards when they played. Doc was a guard. I think Brad played guard in college.

The league is changing, however, with old-school centers going the way of the dinosaur, so there is room in this small ball debate. I admit it is the height of arrogance for Celtics fans to think they know better than Brad and Danny.

I've been following the C's closely since about 1979, a year or two before Bird showed up.

It always seemed our achilles heel was bigs ever since Perk got hurt and traded.

It's a shame we are not getting better production from Amir.

I think a team can survive with tall power forwards turning into centers. KG was an excellent center by the end of his time with the C's. Horford had five blocks last night and is at times matching up quite favorably with the 2008 version of KG.

But KG couldn't do it alone and neither should Horford be expected to completely defend the rim.

Of course if Zizac arrives and he looks nowhere as promising as he does in the European league, we will be back at ground zero and Horford will be a year older.

I am of the opinion that it is better to get someone for free than make trades.

Maybe trade for Noel. He would probably only cost us Rozier and one of Olynyk or Jerebko. I doubt we'd have to cough up much more than that.

It sounds like we might end up with Hayward as a free agent. The guy played for Brad. He wouldn't solve our center issues, but he'd cost nothing and looks like an upgrade over Jerebko or Olynyk.

Or it looks like he is a small forward. I wouldn't trade Smart for him. I wouldn't trade anyone for him. We got Horford. Before then we were only getting washed up Shaq, Rasheed, and Amir for big free agents.

We are close to contending based on the roster depth. It could be going sideways to trade Crowder or Smart, maybe both, draft picks too to pick up a guy like Cousins. One might as well wait and not trade.

At some point he will become an unrestricted free agent like Hayward.

If Danny goes all in trading, then that'll be that. There will be no more high draft picks coming in and the team will start the window aging process. We don't know how good Brown, Smart and Olynyk are. That is what we are finding out. If you trade them, they could come back to burn us like Chauncey Billups or Joe Johnson did.

It seems that Brad read my post from yesterday. Zeller was attended to after the game for splinters stuck in his butt and legs. Jaylen didn't play much, but he still got some minutes. Isaiah was great which made our guard rotation that much better. His injury was probably a blessing in disguise as Rozier and Smart got it done for the most part and got in some good pg experience.

Brad is acting funny with Amir. His new strategy seems to be to start him and then that's pretty much his minutes for the whole game.

Olynyk had a good one. He needs to play like he did last night every game or nearly all of them. Jerebko has also solidified his place in the rotation. Amir is the one letting us down. He needs to snap out of it. He's not much better than Zeller the way he is playing. Unfortunately, it seems Amir is one of those guys who is hitting the wall as he approaches age 30. He is another Crash Wallace coming to the Celtics after his glory days. But he is only 29. Last year he had plantar fasciitis. I don't understand why Amir Johnson is not playing better.

Brad did a good job last night tightening the rotation.

Crowder was efficient.

Marcus Smart was efficient. That's how he should play on offense. Let the game come to him and stop forcing the threes. He had three turnovers, but he also had five assists.

We are getting there slowly but surely.

There's nothing wrong with being a 50 win team with top draft picks still coming in and quality players already on the team to go with a fun atmosphere.

I agree with the common sentiment that we don't have much wiggle room. If any of our top players get hurt for an extended period of time, we will probably become a .500 team. I think when healthy and in a groove, we should win two out of every three. I think we can compete with all teams not named San Antonio, Cleveland and Golden State. Yet, I also think we can still become the team superpowers won't want to face in the playoffs, with or without trades. I am glass half full like Tommy Heinsohn.

We might not have good odds to compete for the title, but under best case scenarios, one never knows. It's not that the needle needs to be moved. It's that the needle needs to develop and that takes time.

I think it's too soon for Danny to fire the mega-trade trigger. I think he is searching for something much better than the three year window we got with Paul, KG and Ray.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2016, 01:14:53 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Rick Pitino agrees, TP.

That team wasn't too bad as soon as Pitino quit like a baby.

We should technically be okay if we take care of the extra home games. We are holding our own on the road so far.

I've always wondered what it would have been like if he hadn't traded Billups and Joe Johnson. A Pierce/Johnson/Walker/Billups team would have been pretty good.

C's fans should remember those trades when they keep begging on Danny to dump our young assets for mediocre short-term upgrades.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 02:52:51 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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It's not easy to remember, but it seemed Pitino talked up full court presses and other coaching strategies that never got applied. He showed no loyalty. He treated Auerbach very badly from what I recall.

Pitino had zero patience. He was trying too hard.

O'Brien took over and the team had an instant identity.

I didn't like how Pitino got rid of David Wesley and other solid players like you mentioned. I don't remember anyone not excited when Pitino first arrived. He turned into a quitter and the kind of college coach who makes it seem they should stay there and not try coaching in the NBA.

Brad is perfect for the current situation. He has proven himself player after player, from Jordan Crawford to Evan Turner to Jae Crowder.

Jae is another guy I can see some fans eventually giving up on.

We simply can't trade him for at least another year or two until Jaylen is ready to start or we sign someone like Hayward.

Maybe Jae will improve like Bradley did for ball handling. Maybe Jae and Jaylen can play together.

I agree with you. These guys are too young making it too risky to trade them. Jaylen Brown looks like a keeper, but there are other guys like Marcus, Rozier and yes, Olynyk, who might be good enough to win you titles in a few years.

Hopefully Avery didn't twist his ankle too badly and won't miss games.

Other than Al Jefferson, I didn't think we had much and was surprised we got KG for that pu pu platter.

Ainge has much better assets this time around. Brooklyn is 1-11 on the road. Only Dallas looks like they might be tanking or will. I'm watching the standings. Some days I go to tankathon to check it out.

If I had to trade one guy, I might unload Rozier. But his trade value can't be that high, at least not yet. Too bad Philly would never take Zeller or maybe they would as an add on and then cut him. Noel would be a definite upgrade over Amir and Zeller. But if you have to give up Olynyk and Rozier, for example, we are ending up with a younger version of Amir, but we would also lose two guys that could come back to haunt us.

I forget the trade, but we ended up with Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers. I think that's what you're referring to. Okay, it was Joe Johnson, Randy Brown, Milt Palacio and a 2002 1st round draft pick for Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers. Rogers was pretty good. Delk seemed underwhelming. And then Rogers was gone. It was like Dallas getting Rondo for Crowder. I do not regret losing Dwight Powell. That was awful letting Joe Johnson go for some lame instant gratification that gratified no one.

It was Chauncey Billups and Dee Brown for Kenny Anderson, Popeye Jones and Zan Tabak. I did like Kenny Anderson, but Popeye kind of fizzled and I don't think Tabak ever did anything.

Milt Palacio was one of my favorite Celtics, but I was just a kid.

So yes, you are correct. If you're going to trade young players, make sure they are scrubs or nothing too special.

Rozier could be special, but he might not be. He might end up as a Jerebko, good but nothing that great. I wouldn't trade much more than him and only because we already have Isaiah, Marcus and Avery and I do think Jaylen Brown could cover the fourth guard minutes when the opponent has some monster shooting guard a bit too big to expect Avery or even Marcus to cover.

I hope the Celtics can pile up some wins over the next twenty games. It is a lot more fun to be in the mix and not bunched up with scrub teams who would be in heaven if they get the eighth seed.

This team has to produce and my confidence remains that we are a top ten team and hopefully top five by the end of the season. We don't have to match the Clippers or Toronto, but we should be close to them for success. The Clippers never seem to get it done in the playoffs and Toronto needs to start advancing to the ECF and Finals. I don't mind if we are in that level. That's this year's goal. I think it's okay to use the injury excuse for the rough start. Danny will probably just have to tinker here and there and otherwise let the tide of time develop Brown and Rozier. Perk and Rondo got it done as young players, so those guys can succeed also.

Jerebko is solid, but has he reached a ceiling? I want to see Olynyk reach his potential. You only need 10 very good players including a couple great ones to contend. Jerebko is gaining my confidence, but I think his ceiling is well below Olynyk's. So I am focusing a lot on Kelly this year. And Jaylen Brown and Smart. And Rozier. Those are precisely the guys who we'd have to trade, some of them at least, to get Cousins or some other top player to make us have a traditional big three.

Or we could do it the no-name Pistons' way. Isaiah is amazing. Horford might be the best player we've had since 2008 KG. Bradley is the guy one wants to call a two-way all-star, a big three piece, but no one wants to jinx him or Crowder.

The only way Danny can mess us up long-term is if he starts trading the assets for some big name. What if the big name busts his achilles? I wish Cousins was a better person or maybe I'd be right there with the impatient folks. Maybe we will not contend realistically for another couple years. That is why it is very interesting no matter what Danny decides to do. The current grass might be greener with a little patience.

I hated the end of the KG-Pierce era. Those were not fun games to watch and we were awful by the end of that, much worse than this year's team. And our guys are so young. I like where this is headed. If we gel by the playoffs, we could win it all even if that just means the illusion of a chance, say 1% odds. We could get to the ECF. We could push Cleveland to six or seven games or maybe upset them.

It's been frustrating so far, no doubt.

Re: Negativity is ruining the experience
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2016, 03:56:06 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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It wasn't Rodney Rogers I was thinkinh of. I can't remember the name of a power forward we used to have. He was a rebounding machine. He was here today, gone tomorrow. There were some bad years and eras.

Maybe bring up Zizac and go young. He could play ten minutes for center. Our best talent is 20-22 years old. That's the reality. That tilts to probably no fireworks.

It looks like the fireworks will be in young players breaking out of their shells just like Avery paved the way. He wasn't even a lottery pick. Isaiah was Mr. Irrelevant.

Jaylen Brown looks like an automatic all-star. It's only a question of when.

Smart is very good.

Brooklyn looks awful.

Horford is blocking shots like he's never done before.

We are due a nice stretch of winning.