Author Topic: Defensive Comparison  (Read 2006 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Defensive Comparison
« on: December 15, 2016, 12:59:06 AM »

Offline alewilliam789

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1605
  • Tommy Points: 76
Let's compare two players defensively.

Player A:
Averages 1.6 Steals per game, has a Defensive Rating (Per 100) of 107, and a DBPM of .9

Player B:
Averages 1.1 Steals per game, has a defensive Rating of 108, and a DBPM of .1

So just by looking at these stats  they look like they are about the same defensively right with Player B having some slight statistical edges? Well Player A is James Harden and Player B is Marcus Smart. No one on here will argue that James Harden is anything more than a average defender, so why are we saying Smart is?
By the way I understand that DBPM and to a lesser extent DRTG is flawed, but don't you think if a sub par defender like Harden can have a solid score that Marcus Smart's elite defense would be amplified even more in these flawed stats? They tell the truth and that is despite Smart being a very good defender, he is in no way elite, or at least not yet. So please stop annointing him as an elite defender because his stats and his effect on the game, again defensively, haven't shown it.

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2016, 01:20:44 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8784
  • Tommy Points: 856
Let's compare two players defensively.

Player A:
Averages 1.6 Steals per game, has a Defensive Rating (Per 100) of 107, and a DBPM of .9

Player B:
Averages 1.1 Steals per game, has a defensive Rating of 108, and a DBPM of .1

So just by looking at these stats  they look like they are about the same defensively right with Player B having some slight statistical edges? Well Player A is James Harden and Player B is Marcus Smart. No one on here will argue that James Harden is anything more than a average defender, so why are we saying Smart is?
By the way I understand that DBPM and to a lesser extent DRTG is flawed, but don't you think if a sub par defender like Harden can have a solid score that Marcus Smart's elite defense would be amplified even more in these flawed stats? They tell the truth and that is despite Smart being a very good defender, he is in no way elite, or at least not yet. So please stop annointing him as an elite defender because his stats and his effect on the game, again defensively, haven't shown it.
this doesnt make much sense.

if Harden can have a solid score it means that the stats dont always reflect a players defensive ability.

If flaws worked that way, they wouldnt be flaws.

Smart is currently 2nd in the league in DRPM among point guard (another very flawed stat), hes been I believe in the top 6 each of his two years in the league.

They are all flawed stats.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 01:30:13 AM by Ilikesports17 »

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2016, 01:24:22 AM »

Online liam

  • NCE
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 45957
  • Tommy Points: 3344
Let's compare two players defensively.

Player A:
Averages 1.6 Steals per game, has a Defensive Rating (Per 100) of 107, and a DBPM of .9

Player B:
Averages 1.1 Steals per game, has a defensive Rating of 108, and a DBPM of .1

So just by looking at these stats  they look like they are about the same defensively right with Player B having some slight statistical edges? Well Player A is James Harden and Player B is Marcus Smart. No one on here will argue that James Harden is anything more than a average defender, so why are we saying Smart is?
By the way I understand that DBPM and to a lesser extent DRTG is flawed, but don't you think if a sub par defender like Harden can have a solid score that Marcus Smart's elite defense would be amplified even more in these flawed stats? They tell the truth and that is despite Smart being a very good defender, he is in no way elite, or at least not yet. So please stop annointing him as an elite defender because his stats and his effect on the game, again defensively, haven't shown it.

I watch the games and think that Smart is a hell of a defender.

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2016, 01:32:06 AM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7027
  • Tommy Points: 468
I don't know anything about defensive metrics but here are two things I think I know.

Smart is not the all world defender people make him out to be.  He's good to very good.  But he is not the defensive Moses nor does he walk on water defensively.

Two, even if he was as good as some people think he is, it would not come close to making up for his offense, which again is among the worse in the league.

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2016, 01:50:58 AM »

Offline jpotter33

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 52168
  • Tommy Points: 3200
Let's compare two players defensively.

Player A:
Averages 1.6 Steals per game, has a Defensive Rating (Per 100) of 107, and a DBPM of .9

Player B:
Averages 1.1 Steals per game, has a defensive Rating of 108, and a DBPM of .1

So just by looking at these stats  they look like they are about the same defensively right with Player B having some slight statistical edges? Well Player A is James Harden and Player B is Marcus Smart. No one on here will argue that James Harden is anything more than a average defender, so why are we saying Smart is?
By the way I understand that DBPM and to a lesser extent DRTG is flawed, but don't you think if a sub par defender like Harden can have a solid score that Marcus Smart's elite defense would be amplified even more in these flawed stats? They tell the truth and that is despite Smart being a very good defender, he is in no way elite, or at least not yet. So please stop annointing him as an elite defender because his stats and his effect on the game, again defensively, haven't shown it.

It's like a broken record here - advanced defensive statistics are pretty much useless because they can't properly isolate an individual player's true effects on the game.

If you can sit there and watch both Harden, who is way below average defensively, and Smart and still try and make this argument, then I don't know what to tell you. Harden's lack of defense is a running joke around the league. That should tell you all that you need to know.

Kawhi has the worst Defensive Rating on the Spurs, so he must be terrible because these flawed stats say so, right?! - http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-is-so-great-at-defense-hes-actually-hurting-the-spurs/.

Understand the game and how defense should be played and actually watch the players play if you want to see their impact. That's how basketball has always worked.

Stats should always be used in conjunction with the superior eye test and never by themselves, and, furthermore, to be as accurate as possible, you should always use as many differing stats as you can to get as broad of a perspective as you can. Contrary to popular belief, there is no end-all-be-all stat. If you have six or seven similar stats telling you the same thing that matches the eye test, such as Marcus is not a good three point shooter, then you can justifiably assume that these things are true. But how can you rationalize these defensive stats when half of them have him as an average defender at best, or even below average, while the other half have him as elite?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 02:01:17 AM by jpotter33 »
Recovering Joe Skeptic, but inching towards a relapse.

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2016, 01:58:04 AM »

Online liam

  • NCE
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 45957
  • Tommy Points: 3344
I don't know anything about defensive metrics but here are two things I think I know.

Smart is not the all world defender people make him out to be.  He's good to very good.  But he is not the defensive Moses nor does he walk on water defensively.

Two, even if he was as good as some people think he is, it would not come close to making up for his offense, which again is among the worse in the league.

I disagree.

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2016, 01:58:59 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8784
  • Tommy Points: 856
I don't know anything about defensive metrics but here are two things I think I know.

Smart is not the all world defender people make him out to be.  He's good to very good.  But he is not the defensive Moses nor does he walk on water defensively.

Two, even if he was as good as some people think he is, it would not come close to making up for his offense, which again is among the worse in the league.
not sure what this means.

What is the break even point?

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2016, 02:06:29 AM »

Offline jpotter33

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 52168
  • Tommy Points: 3200
I don't know anything about defensive metrics but here are two things I think I know.

Smart is not the all world defender people make him out to be.  He's good to very good.  But he is not the defensive Moses nor does he walk on water defensively.

Two, even if he was as good as some people think he is, it would not come close to making up for his offense, which again is among the worse in the league.

Well, these stats that you guys are praising don't back up this claim at all. His RPM is -0.08 with an ORPM of -1.00 and a DRPM of 0.92 (2nd best PG in the league). So according to the advanced stats that you guys are wanting to use he's very close in that regard, not far off like you're claiming. But, again, I think most of these comprehensive advanced stats, especially defensively, are crap.
Recovering Joe Skeptic, but inching towards a relapse.

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2016, 05:35:34 AM »

Offline CelticGuardian

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 836
  • Tommy Points: 43
  • Blood. Sweat. & Tears.
I see all the Marcus Smart jockstraps still absorbing that salt... Ya boy was getting torched yesterday. By old man Tony Parker!! tsk tsk.

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2016, 07:43:41 AM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7851
  • Tommy Points: 770
Kawhi has the worst Defensive Rating on the Spurs, so he must be terrible because these flawed stats say so, right?! - http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-is-so-great-at-defense-hes-actually-hurting-the-spurs/.
Exactly. Opponents will bend their offenses to avoid a defender like Kawhi or, really, just the best defender on a team. There's still no way to account for how an opponent will change what they do to avoid a specific defender a la Kawhi. Smart isn't on Kawhi's level as a defender (yet?) but he's still someone an offense has to account for.

Looking at these defensive numbers without taking this into account would be like looking at FG% and not thinking about how much defensive attention a given player receives. Obviously a player with a better reputation will be defended with more attention from better defenders and that affects their offensive stats. Same thing on defense.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008, 2024

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2016, 09:48:00 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8784
  • Tommy Points: 856
I see all the Marcus Smart jockstraps still absorbing that salt... Ya boy was getting torched yesterday. By old man Tony Parker!! tsk tsk.
This isn't true. Parker had 2 baskets and 2 turnovers for 4 points when guarded by Smart. He torched mostly Rozier down the stretch.

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2016, 10:34:34 AM »

Offline D Dub

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3123
  • Tommy Points: 251
Let's compare two players defensively.

Player A:
Averages 1.6 Steals per game, has a Defensive Rating (Per 100) of 107, and a DBPM of .9

Player B:
Averages 1.1 Steals per game, has a defensive Rating of 108, and a DBPM of .1

So just by looking at these stats  they look like they are about the same defensively right with Player B having some slight statistical edges? Well Player A is James Harden and Player B is Marcus Smart. No one on here will argue that James Harden is anything more than a average defender, so why are we saying Smart is?
By the way I understand that DBPM and to a lesser extent DRTG is flawed, but don't you think if a sub par defender like Harden can have a solid score that Marcus Smart's elite defense would be amplified even more in these flawed stats? They tell the truth and that is despite Smart being a very good defender, he is in no way elite, or at least not yet. So please stop annointing him as an elite defender because his stats and his effect on the game, again defensively, haven't shown it.

Probably helps that Houston hides Harden on the weakest offensive threat, always off the ball. 

Marcus, on the other hand, is asked to guard elite players.

Also, switchablity is a real defensive skill.  Smart can hang with the likes of Westbrook and Harden just as well as he can hang with Milsap and Porzingas.  That helps the team defense exponentially. 

I get that, for a #6 pick, you'd want more of an offensive weapon -- but that shouldn't take away from how uniquely skilled Marcus is defensively, and how valuable his skill set is in today's game. 

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 10:41:25 AM »

Offline CelticGuardian

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 836
  • Tommy Points: 43
  • Blood. Sweat. & Tears.
I see all the Marcus Smart jockstraps still absorbing that salt... Ya boy was getting torched yesterday. By old man Tony Parker!! tsk tsk.
This isn't true. Parker had 2 baskets and 2 turnovers for 4 points when guarded by Smart. He torched mostly Rozier down the stretch.

So the starting point guard matchup that night was Rozier vs Parker? Okay, good to know bro. Do you even get cable over there in the Twilight Zone? All I saw was Kawhi and Parker taking it straight to him... and getting something out of it for their team, there's been times games now where his defense isn't all that otherworldly impactful.

I got a sense of that when Westbrook shot a long 3 dead in his face in that OKC game, I'm suspicious his defense isn't all that effective, especially if he's going to shoot that bad.

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 11:32:07 AM »

Offline Smitty77

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3063
  • Tommy Points: 269
I see all the Marcus Smart jockstraps still absorbing that salt... Ya boy was getting torched yesterday. By old man Tony Parker!! tsk tsk.
This isn't true. Parker had 2 baskets and 2 turnovers for 4 points when guarded by Smart. He torched mostly Rozier down the stretch.

I LOVE it when someone uses FACTS, cold, hard FACTS, to utterly obliterate someone's opinion(s)!!!:-)))  Well done!!!

Smitty77

Re: Defensive Comparison
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 11:39:23 AM »

Offline GratefulCs

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3181
  • Tommy Points: 496
  • Salmon and Mashed Potatoes
I see all the Marcus Smart jockstraps still absorbing that salt... Ya boy was getting torched yesterday. By old man Tony Parker!! tsk tsk.
honetly, do people watch the games anymore?
I trust Danny Ainge