Celtics add multiple "Swings" this year.

[PhoSita]

Of the guys you mentioned, I think that only Gerald Green will get more than 10-15 mpg with the team this year.  Brown is probably the only other one who will get minutes, period.

Wing / swing is actually a notable point of weakness for this team.  It's basically Crowder, Jerebko, and Green among guys with both the size to regularly switch 2-4 and experience in the league.

Despite his size, I really dont see Green playing as a 4 on either side of the ball. Hes much more of a 2-3.

Nylon Calculus tracks players "average position" meaning if they play 40 minutes at the 2 and 40 at the 3, then they average a 2.5.

last year Green averaged a 2.6, Turner was a 2.7. Crowder a 3.2 and jerebko a 3.8. No one else is really close to 3.5.

the metric however, seems a bit flawed as they have Smart listed as playing 3 SF minutes to Bradleys 316, meaning when both are on the court they count AB as a SF and Smart a 2 or 1 which based on what Ive seen is backwards.With that in mind, they listed Green as playing 1 minute at PF, 890 at SF, and 650 at SG.

Green is a pure 3 if you ask me, but him playing most of his minutes at that position means he will be required to switch onto 2s and 4s with some frequency.

[KG Living Legend]

Of the guys you mentioned, I think that only Gerald Green will get more than 10-15 mpg with the team this year.  Brown is probably the only other one who will get minutes, period.

Wing / swing is actually a notable point of weakness for this team.  It's basically Crowder, Jerebko, and Green among guys with both the size to regularly switch 2-4 and experience in the league.

Despite his size, I really dont see Green playing as a 4 on either side of the ball. Hes much more of a 2-3.

Nylon Calculus tracks players "average position" meaning if they play 40 minutes at the 2 and 40 at the 3, then they average a 2.5.

last year Green averaged a 2.6, Turner was a 2.7. Crowder a 3.2 and jerebko a 3.8. No one else is really close to 3.5.

the metric however, seems a bit flawed as they have Smart listed as playing 3 SF minutes to Bradleys 316, meaning when both are on the court they count AB as a SF and Smart a 2 or 1 which based on what Ive seen is backwards.With that in mind, they listed Green as playing 1 minute at PF, 890 at SF, and 650 at SG.

Green is a pure 3 if you ask me, but him playing most of his minutes at that position means he will be required to switch onto 2s and 4s with some frequency.

 He maybe a little to light to be a pure three, if he really only weighs 205 pounds. Crowder is 240 pounds easily and Brown at 19 is already 225 pounds.

[YoungOne87]

Swings or Swingmen are players who play SG and SF...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman

[The Oracle]

The Celtics were absolute trash anytime a swing was swinging last year.  Whether it was Crowder playing PF, Jerebko at SF or anything else the results were terrible and the thought of it being widely used this year is cringe worthy.

[KG Living Legend]

Swings or Swingmen are players who play SG and SF...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingman

 Young One, we are talking about two different things here. That's a Swingman and has been known for years and years.

 Read the quote directly from Stevens in the first post of this thread. He's definitely talking about players that can play three and four, a position that we really were thin at.

[KG Living Legend]

Just to clarify a swing us a guy that can play Small foward and small ball power forward.

 The obvious weakness on the Celtics just a year ago. Just Crowder and Jonas were the main Swings.

 All the guys we signed or drafted aren't all true swings, but the shear number of 6'6" to 6'8" athletes we acquired is very telling.

 Here is a quote from Stevens over a year ago.

" And I think that swing area where you can go 3-4 and play that way, that's the area we're going to have to adress as we move into the next few weeks and look at our team."



 So this year we draft Jaylen Brown 6'7", with a seven foot wingspan, Yabusele 6'8" 7'2" wingspan, Ben Bentil 6'8" 7"1" wingspan Abdel Nader 6'7" with a 7'1" wingspan and signed Gerald Green who is 6'7" with a 6'10" wingspan.

 So that's Five guys added to the roster that could potentially play the swing.  Add that to Crowder, Jerkebo, and Young who should be able to swing with his body, but I refuse to count him.

 Still that's Seven bodies for Stevens to choose from, a great improvement from just a year ago. Fantastic job addressing the team's weakness Ainge. Tp Danny.

i agree with the above in total, my concern is, are we going to even see Yabu, Bentil, Nader on the court this year? We may see Nader a bit... I'm not to sure about Yabu, and Bentil.

 Definitely won't see Yabusele becuase he's Stashed. The rest of the guys only time will tell, but to me the point is look at all the guys we picked up around the 6'7" range, we clearly were preparing for this.

[ThePaintedArea]

The Celtics were absolute trash anytime a swing was swinging last year.  Whether it was Crowder playing PF, Jerebko at SF or anything else the results were terrible and the thought of it being widely used this year is cringe worthy.

By plus/minus the Celtics' most productive unit was:  Smart-Bradley-Turner-Jerebko-Olynyk
Second best was: Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Sullinger
Best Defensive unit was:  Thomas-Smart-Turner-Jerebko-Olynyk

[The Oracle]

The Celtics were absolute trash anytime a swing was swinging last year.  Whether it was Crowder playing PF, Jerebko at SF or anything else the results were terrible and the thought of it being widely used this year is cringe worthy.

By plus/minus the Celtics' most productive unit was:  Smart-Bradley-Turner-Jerebko-Olynyk
Second best was: Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Sullinger
Best Defensive unit was:  Thomas-Smart-Turner-Jerebko-Olynyk

Jerebko is a natural PF and when used as a PF was way more effective than he was at SF.  He should not "swing" down and play any SF unless absolutely necessary, those lineups were atrocious offensively.  That 2nd best small ball lineup only looks successful because of its usage mainly in end game scenarios where the C's were being fouled a lot, 67 minutes is also a very limited sample by itself.  Small ball in general was terribly ineffective.

[ThePaintedArea]

The Celtics were absolute trash anytime a swing was swinging last year.  Whether it was Crowder playing PF, Jerebko at SF or anything else the results were terrible and the thought of it being widely used this year is cringe worthy.

By plus/minus the Celtics' most productive unit was:  Smart-Bradley-Turner-Jerebko-Olynyk
Second best was: Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Sullinger
Best Defensive unit was:  Thomas-Smart-Turner-Jerebko-Olynyk

Jerebko is a natural PF and when used as a PF was way more effective than he was at SF.  He should not "swing" down and play any SF unless absolutely necessary, those lineups were atrocious offensively. 

Obviously Brad came to the same conclusion before the season started - there was NO lineup in 2015/16 in which Jerebko was plausibly the small forward; bball reference assigns more minutes to him at 5 than 3 (!), for what it's worth.

So if a "swing" is a 3/4 or a 4/3, then Jerebko is not a swing but a big.  "Stretch 4", iow.  But Jonas is not a big big - at 230 pounds he's lighter than Crowder.

That 2nd best small ball lineup only looks successful because of its usage mainly in end game scenarios where the C's were being fouled a lot, 67 minutes is also a very limited sample by itself.  Small ball in general was terribly ineffective.

Good point about the sample size - though almost every lineup has the same issue.

Their most effective lineup last year was also their second-most used, however; and that was with Jerebko at 4.  I would call that small-ball, but I can see it both ways.

Thanks for excellent discussion.

[The Oracle]

The Celtics were absolute trash anytime a swing was swinging last year.  Whether it was Crowder playing PF, Jerebko at SF or anything else the results were terrible and the thought of it being widely used this year is cringe worthy.

By plus/minus the Celtics' most productive unit was:  Smart-Bradley-Turner-Jerebko-Olynyk
Second best was: Thomas-Bradley-Turner-Crowder-Sullinger
Best Defensive unit was:  Thomas-Smart-Turner-Jerebko-Olynyk

Jerebko is a natural PF and when used as a PF was way more effective than he was at SF.  He should not "swing" down and play any SF unless absolutely necessary, those lineups were atrocious offensively. 

Obviously Brad came to the same conclusion before the season started - there was NO lineup in 2015/16 in which Jerebko was plausibly the small forward; bball reference assigns more minutes to him at 5 than 3 (!), for what it's worth.

So if a "swing" is a 3/4 or a 4/3, then Jerebko is not a swing but a big.  "Stretch 4", iow.  But Jonas is not a big big - at 230 pounds he's lighter than Crowder.

That 2nd best small ball lineup only looks successful because of its usage mainly in end game scenarios where the C's were being fouled a lot, 67 minutes is also a very limited sample by itself.  Small ball in general was terribly ineffective.

Good point about the sample size - though almost every lineup has the same issue.

Their most effective lineup last year was also their second-most used, however; and that was with Jerebko at 4.  I would call that small-ball, but I can see it both ways.

Thanks for excellent discussion.

As to your comment "Brad came to the same conclusion before the season started - there was NO lineup in which Jerebko was plausibly the SF"

Jerebko played around 170 minutes at SF and only around 40 at what would be considered Center.  The rest of his 1176 minutes were at PF about 960 in total.  Basketball reference is not very reliable on a lot of things.

Lee/Olynyk/Jerebko played 89 minutes together
Zeller/Olynyk/Jerebko 53 minutes
Amir/Olynyk/Jerebko 19 minutes

[Denis998]

I guess Danny is just Swinging for the Fences

[TheSundanceKid]

I actually don't think you are meant to relate Brad's 4 roles to the natural positions. The point of his descriptions is a role that they play. For example Simmons would be a ball handler even though he is a 4. JJ is a swing because he is able to guard multiple positions and stretch a big out to the 3 point line. I don't think you can say "a swing is a guy that can play the 3 and 4" or "a wing plays the 2 or 3" because the whole idea of Brad's roles is to move away from the idea of positions

[KG Living Legend]

I actually don't think you are meant to relate Brad's 4 roles to the natural positions. The point of his descriptions is a role that they play. For example Simmons would be a ball handler even though he is a 4. JJ is a swing because he is able to guard multiple positions and stretch a big out to the 3 point line. I don't think you can say "a swing is a guy that can play the 3 and 4" or "a wing plays the 2 or 3" because the whole idea of Brad's roles is to move away from the idea of positions

 Yes you can say that a swing is a guy that plays 3 and 4 cause that's exactly what Steven's said.

 And Simmons would either be a big or a swing that can play Point forward. Simmons is a PF in my mind that can handle and create.

[TheSundanceKid]

I actually don't think you are meant to relate Brad's 4 roles to the natural positions. The point of his descriptions is a role that they play. For example Simmons would be a ball handler even though he is a 4. JJ is a swing because he is able to guard multiple positions and stretch a big out to the 3 point line. I don't think you can say "a swing is a guy that can play the 3 and 4" or "a wing plays the 2 or 3" because the whole idea of Brad's roles is to move away from the idea of positions

 Yes you can say that a swing is a guy that plays 3 and 4 cause that's exactly what Steven's said.

 And Simmons would either be a big or a swing that can play Point forward. Simmons is a PF in my mind that can handle and create.

Simmons is 100% a ball handler. He is not a swing. This is my point, you are trying to directly translate from one form to the other. If that were possible why not just stick with 1-5?

The system that Stevens talks about is based around the skills that the players have and less about their size or weight. Avery Bradley has the size of a traditional point guard but he is classed as a wing by Brad because he has the skills of a wing. Simmons has the skills of a ball handler primarily

[mgent]

The more and more I think about Stevens and his style, the less and less I think AJ will play PF.  He'll probably be stuck as Horford's backup, with KO, Crowder, and JJ getting all the PF minutes. 

Then you've got Smart, AB, and IT who are all 30+ minute players on the perimeter (and Smart switches between 1-3 seamlessly), so that really only leaves spot minutes for Green, Brown, and Rozier.

We don't really need anymore Swings, unless they're awesome rebounders.