Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up

[LarBrd33]

In 28 games at his natural starting center position, Noel put up Per-36 numbers of 16 points, 10 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.5 steals, 1.8 blocks with 55% shooting.   I still would really love the kid in Boston.

In 7 games during the harvest moon festival when his first shot attempt was left-handed Noel averaged an unfathomable 29 points per 42 minutes per game.

Come on LB, this guy has been there 2 years. One with Okafor, one without him. He played worse with Okafor for sure, but at no point was this guy dominant. He also can't play center full-time cause he weighs 230 pounds. How will he guard (and stay on the court for 36 minutes no less)
Half the league at least has a starting center with 30-60+ pounds on this guy.

One could make the argument that Noel is a dominant defensive player.   His rookie season was pretty spectacular from a defensive standpoint.  He clearly needs to play center to be most effective, though.

[celticsclay]

In 28 games at his natural starting center position, Noel put up Per-36 numbers of 16 points, 10 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.5 steals, 1.8 blocks with 55% shooting.   I still would really love the kid in Boston.

In 7 games during the harvest moon festival when his first shot attempt was left-handed Noel averaged an unfathomable 29 points per 42 minutes per game.

Come on LB, this guy has been there 2 years. One with Okafor, one without him. He played worse with Okafor for sure, but at no point was this guy dominant. He also can't play center full-time cause he weighs 230 pounds. How will he guard (and stay on the court for 36 minutes no less)
Half the league at least has a starting center with 30-60+ pounds on this guy.

One could make the argument that Noel is a dominant defensive player.   His rookie season was pretty spectacular from a defensive standpoint.  He clearly needs to play center to be most effective, though.

You think he can play center full time at 230 pounds as a defensive specalist? 

[LarBrd33]

This trade would never happen for the simple fact of how restrictive Noel's cap hold would be next off season.  His cap hold will be I believe $10,961,225.  Trading Smart for him would cost the C's around $6.4 million in cap space for next year making it impossible to create max cap space without trading multiple other rotation players for no salary in return.  I wouldn't begin to think of trading Smart for Noel simply based on their value as players, let alone the additional losses it would result in next off season.

TP for the numbers.  I was trying to find clarity on what his cap hold would be.

[jpotter33]

In 28 games at his natural starting center position, Noel put up Per-36 numbers of 16 points, 10 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.5 steals, 1.8 blocks with 55% shooting.   I still would really love the kid in Boston.

In 7 games during the harvest moon festival when his first shot attempt was left-handed Noel averaged an unfathomable 29 points per 42 minutes per game.

Come on LB, this guy has been there 2 years. One with Okafor, one without him. He played worse with Okafor for sure, but at no point was this guy dominant. He also can't play center full-time cause he weighs 230 pounds. How will he guard (and stay on the court for 36 minutes no less)
Half the league at least has a starting center with 30-60+ pounds on this guy.

One could make the argument that Noel is a dominant defensive player.   His rookie season was pretty spectacular from a defensive standpoint.  He clearly needs to play center to be most effective, though.

You think he can play center full time at 230 pounds as a defensive specalist?

For us he wouldn't necessarily have to. Horford could take the Cousins' and Lopez's of the NBA, which is better since he's a stronger/bigger defender, and Noel could guard the power forward. That's what would make him a great fit for us defensively. Noel and Horford complement each other really well, and they're both interchangeable guarding the 4/5 and can also effectively switch onto anybody.

[celticsclay]

In 28 games at his natural starting center position, Noel put up Per-36 numbers of 16 points, 10 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.5 steals, 1.8 blocks with 55% shooting.   I still would really love the kid in Boston.

In 7 games during the harvest moon festival when his first shot attempt was left-handed Noel averaged an unfathomable 29 points per 42 minutes per game.

Come on LB, this guy has been there 2 years. One with Okafor, one without him. He played worse with Okafor for sure, but at no point was this guy dominant. He also can't play center full-time cause he weighs 230 pounds. How will he guard (and stay on the court for 36 minutes no less)
Half the league at least has a starting center with 30-60+ pounds on this guy.

One could make the argument that Noel is a dominant defensive player.   His rookie season was pretty spectacular from a defensive standpoint.  He clearly needs to play center to be most effective, though.

You think he can play center full time at 230 pounds as a defensive specalist?

For us he wouldn't necessarily have to. Horford could take the Cousins' and Lopez's of the NBA, which is better since he's a stronger/bigger defender, and Noel could guard the power forward. That's what would make him a great fit for us defensively. Noel and Horford complement each other really well, and they're both interchangeable guarding the 4/5 and can also effectively switch onto anybody.

side note: the listed weights in the NBA are beyond ridiculous. There is no way Tyson chandler only weighs 10 more pounds than Noel despite being 2-3 inches taller having a much thicker frame and being obviously thicker.

[PickNRoll]

I have no statistical evidence, but I watched about 15 sixers games last year and in my opinion he's not an elite defender.  He's roughly on par with Amir Johnson, just with more theatrics and more mistakes.  A guy like DeAndre Jordan warps the entire court.  You never get that sense with Noel.  He can be moved out of a play by a SF.  Not elite.

There's layers there to pull through.  Did you happen to catch games he was playing out of position?  We're talking about a 10 win team that was intentionally trying to lose games.  They didn't really have NBA players on that roster for the most part.  FWIW, he had by far the highest defensive rating on the team.  He also put up far better stats as the starting Center than he did as a PF.  We also saw him make a leap when Ish Smith returned - so maybe he'd succeed with decent players surrounding him. 

The kid could probably flourish on this team.

The games were evenly distributed, more or less.  They improved from a D-league team to simply the worst team with Ish.  The effort was surprisingly good throughout.  Credit to coach Brown.  I don't think it matters if he was playing 4 or 5, tbh.

My problem with Noel is that his game is defined by highlight reel blocks and alley-oops.  He plays with a sort of anticipation of the next highlight.  For every weak side shot block, he gives up an offensive rebound.  For every steal, he turns the ball over twice.  He grabs a nice rebound in traffic and you'd like him to make a quick outlet pass, but he palms the ball instead, celebrating his rebound.  It's like he's playing his own game. Basically the opposite of Smart.

He'd probably look significantly better on a real basketball team.

I don't see why that would be true.  e.g. the Spurs don't select players like Noel and mold them into good players.  They draft intelligent, team-oriented players.  You'll never see Noel on the Spurs, I guarantee that.

Maybe the problem with Noel is expectations.  People think he can be an elite center some day because he was a top pick.  That just isn't true.  He should focus on being the best Tyson Chandler he can be.

Tyson Chandler was the #2 pick in his draft.

And he had a nice career as a role player.  He wasn't Hakeem Olajuwon.  That's my point.  Noel's ceiling is in the Tyson Chandler range, not the Hakeem range.

Who said he had Hakeem potential?  I think it's well known Tyson Chandler is the comp. 

The question, then, becomes whether or not you think Tony Allen or Tyson Chandler makes more of an impact on a team.   Tony's a great defender, but he has only so much impact on the game.  Tyson Chandler was a DPOY and helped a team win a championship.   As others have said, if you're choosing between two defense-only players, you go with the big.

That said, I still truly hope Marcus Smart makes a leap next season and surpasses what looks like a Tony Allen ceiling right now.

I think Smart is more Joe Dumars than Tony Allen, and I don't think Noel ever reaches  that Tyson Chandler ceiling.  It's too simple to say they're both defensive players.  Smart shows the best defensive fundamentals and instincts I've seen in 35 years.  Noel is behind the curve.

That's funny.  I think there is a decent to very good chance that Noel can be become Tyson Chandler.  I think it is a perfect comp and that there is a  chance it happens.  On the other hand, I think there is virtually no chance that Smart becomes Joe Dumars, who is in the Hall of Fame for ****. 

Kind of tired of seeing fans not understand the idea of a combo guy, which I presume people think of when they think of Smart.  They see a guy that isn't a true PG, isn't a true SG and think hey, he's both; just like Joe Dumars!

The difference is, Dumars could handle multiple roles WELL.  All Smart has shown offensively is that he can't handle either well.  There is a huge difference between someone like Smart and Joe Dumars.

Dumars was 6'3, 200ish, long wingspan, smart, gritty, physical, great defender.  He shot 20% on threes in his second year.  He averaged 9 and 12 points over his first two seasons but blossomed into a reliable 20 point scorer.  He didn't have a great first step.  He didn't get to the FT line much in his first few years, but became more aggressive in the middle stages of his career.  He was never a #1 option, really more of a 3rd or 4th option.  He shared ball handling duties with IT.  He averaged 4.5 assists for his career, never a true distributor or playmaker, but decent. Later in his career he became a great post-up guard and developed a nice floater --the same things Smart is working on.  His build, his role, his play style, his career trajectory... nearly an exact match and a perfect role model for Smart.

This is another thing that annoys we regarding fan logic.  You take one guy, that struggled initially but has a similar build to another guy.  And then you say, see, this guy can become that guy.  What is missing is that there are a whole bunch of players that that struggle initially, and have a similar build than that guy, that never amount to anything.

Yet we get these analogies ALL the time.

The similarity goes beyond the guy's build.  I literally just explained it.  I watched Dumar's career start to finish. I'm not throwing out random 6'3" Hof'ers.  Smart has the potential to be that caliber of player.  He's not as good a shooter, but he's even more impactful defensively.   The difference between Smart and a 15ppg starter is just unlocking a few offensive tools and knocking down open looks.  Year 3 will be telling, but you can't trade him now... Not for Nerlens Noel.

[jpotter33]

In 28 games at his natural starting center position, Noel put up Per-36 numbers of 16 points, 10 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.5 steals, 1.8 blocks with 55% shooting.   I still would really love the kid in Boston.

In 7 games during the harvest moon festival when his first shot attempt was left-handed Noel averaged an unfathomable 29 points per 42 minutes per game.

Come on LB, this guy has been there 2 years. One with Okafor, one without him. He played worse with Okafor for sure, but at no point was this guy dominant. He also can't play center full-time cause he weighs 230 pounds. How will he guard (and stay on the court for 36 minutes no less)
Half the league at least has a starting center with 30-60+ pounds on this guy.

One could make the argument that Noel is a dominant defensive player.   His rookie season was pretty spectacular from a defensive standpoint.  He clearly needs to play center to be most effective, though.

You think he can play center full time at 230 pounds as a defensive specalist?

For us he wouldn't necessarily have to. Horford could take the Cousins' and Lopez's of the NBA, which is better since he's a stronger/bigger defender, and Noel could guard the power forward. That's what would make him a great fit for us defensively. Noel and Horford complement each other really well, and they're both interchangeable guarding the 4/5 and can also effectively switch onto anybody.

side note: the listed weights in the NBA are beyond ridiculous. There is no way Tyson chandler only weighs 10 more pounds than Noel despite being 2-3 inches taller having a much thicker frame and being obviously thicker.

Yeah, I question a lot of them, too.

Granted, have you seen Chandler's legs? They're toothpicks. He's got quite a few memes about it. Perhaps that makes him a bit lighter.

What's the difference in weight between Horford and Noel? It seems like it should be significant.

[celticsclay]

In 28 games at his natural starting center position, Noel put up Per-36 numbers of 16 points, 10 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.5 steals, 1.8 blocks with 55% shooting.   I still would really love the kid in Boston.

In 7 games during the harvest moon festival when his first shot attempt was left-handed Noel averaged an unfathomable 29 points per 42 minutes per game.

Come on LB, this guy has been there 2 years. One with Okafor, one without him. He played worse with Okafor for sure, but at no point was this guy dominant. He also can't play center full-time cause he weighs 230 pounds. How will he guard (and stay on the court for 36 minutes no less)
Half the league at least has a starting center with 30-60+ pounds on this guy.

One could make the argument that Noel is a dominant defensive player.   His rookie season was pretty spectacular from a defensive standpoint.  He clearly needs to play center to be most effective, though.

You think he can play center full time at 230 pounds as a defensive specalist?

For us he wouldn't necessarily have to. Horford could take the Cousins' and Lopez's of the NBA, which is better since he's a stronger/bigger defender, and Noel could guard the power forward. That's what would make him a great fit for us defensively. Noel and Horford complement each other really well, and they're both interchangeable guarding the 4/5 and can also effectively switch onto anybody.

side note: the listed weights in the NBA are beyond ridiculous. There is no way Tyson chandler only weighs 10 more pounds than Noel despite being 2-3 inches taller having a much thicker frame and being obviously thicker.

Yeah, I question a lot of them, too.

Granted, have you seen Chandler's legs? They're toothpicks. He's got quite a few memes about it. Perhaps that makes him a bit lighter.

What's the difference in weight between Horford and Noel? It seems like it should be significant.

I did look up chandler and he does have small legs, but noel's whole body is tiny!

Horford is only listed at 245 which may be a slight underreport. I guess perhaps the difference is that these guys fill out as they are in the league but they don't really update their weights to go along with it. Whereas Noel has not really filled out and may never.

[droopdog7]

I have no statistical evidence, but I watched about 15 sixers games last year and in my opinion he's not an elite defender.  He's roughly on par with Amir Johnson, just with more theatrics and more mistakes.  A guy like DeAndre Jordan warps the entire court.  You never get that sense with Noel.  He can be moved out of a play by a SF.  Not elite.

There's layers there to pull through.  Did you happen to catch games he was playing out of position?  We're talking about a 10 win team that was intentionally trying to lose games.  They didn't really have NBA players on that roster for the most part.  FWIW, he had by far the highest defensive rating on the team.  He also put up far better stats as the starting Center than he did as a PF.  We also saw him make a leap when Ish Smith returned - so maybe he'd succeed with decent players surrounding him. 

The kid could probably flourish on this team.

The games were evenly distributed, more or less.  They improved from a D-league team to simply the worst team with Ish.  The effort was surprisingly good throughout.  Credit to coach Brown.  I don't think it matters if he was playing 4 or 5, tbh.

My problem with Noel is that his game is defined by highlight reel blocks and alley-oops.  He plays with a sort of anticipation of the next highlight.  For every weak side shot block, he gives up an offensive rebound.  For every steal, he turns the ball over twice.  He grabs a nice rebound in traffic and you'd like him to make a quick outlet pass, but he palms the ball instead, celebrating his rebound.  It's like he's playing his own game. Basically the opposite of Smart.

He'd probably look significantly better on a real basketball team.

I don't see why that would be true.  e.g. the Spurs don't select players like Noel and mold them into good players.  They draft intelligent, team-oriented players.  You'll never see Noel on the Spurs, I guarantee that.

Maybe the problem with Noel is expectations.  People think he can be an elite center some day because he was a top pick.  That just isn't true.  He should focus on being the best Tyson Chandler he can be.

Tyson Chandler was the #2 pick in his draft.

And he had a nice career as a role player.  He wasn't Hakeem Olajuwon.  That's my point.  Noel's ceiling is in the Tyson Chandler range, not the Hakeem range.

Who said he had Hakeem potential?  I think it's well known Tyson Chandler is the comp. 

The question, then, becomes whether or not you think Tony Allen or Tyson Chandler makes more of an impact on a team.   Tony's a great defender, but he has only so much impact on the game.  Tyson Chandler was a DPOY and helped a team win a championship.   As others have said, if you're choosing between two defense-only players, you go with the big.

That said, I still truly hope Marcus Smart makes a leap next season and surpasses what looks like a Tony Allen ceiling right now.

I think Smart is more Joe Dumars than Tony Allen, and I don't think Noel ever reaches  that Tyson Chandler ceiling.  It's too simple to say they're both defensive players.  Smart shows the best defensive fundamentals and instincts I've seen in 35 years.  Noel is behind the curve.

That's funny.  I think there is a decent to very good chance that Noel can be become Tyson Chandler.  I think it is a perfect comp and that there is a  chance it happens.  On the other hand, I think there is virtually no chance that Smart becomes Joe Dumars, who is in the Hall of Fame for ****. 

Kind of tired of seeing fans not understand the idea of a combo guy, which I presume people think of when they think of Smart.  They see a guy that isn't a true PG, isn't a true SG and think hey, he's both; just like Joe Dumars!

The difference is, Dumars could handle multiple roles WELL.  All Smart has shown offensively is that he can't handle either well.  There is a huge difference between someone like Smart and Joe Dumars.

Dumars was 6'3, 200ish, long wingspan, smart, gritty, physical, great defender.  He shot 20% on threes in his second year.  He averaged 9 and 12 points over his first two seasons but blossomed into a reliable 20 point scorer.  He didn't have a great first step.  He didn't get to the FT line much in his first few years, but became more aggressive in the middle stages of his career.  He was never a #1 option, really more of a 3rd or 4th option.  He shared ball handling duties with IT.  He averaged 4.5 assists for his career, never a true distributor or playmaker, but decent. Later in his career he became a great post-up guard and developed a nice floater --the same things Smart is working on.  His build, his role, his play style, his career trajectory... nearly an exact match and a perfect role model for Smart.

This is another thing that annoys we regarding fan logic.  You take one guy, that struggled initially but has a similar build to another guy.  And then you say, see, this guy can become that guy.  What is missing is that there are a whole bunch of players that that struggle initially, and have a similar build than that guy, that never amount to anything.

Yet we get these analogies ALL the time.

The similarity goes beyond the guy's build.  I literally just explained it.  I watched Dumar's career start to finish. I'm not throwing out random 6'3" Hof'ers.  Smart has the potential to be that caliber of player.  He's not as good a shooter, but he's even more impactful defensively.   The difference between Smart and a 15ppg starter is just unlocking a few offensive tools and knocking down open looks.  Year 3 will be telling, but you can't trade him now... Not for Nerlens Noel.

Fair enough.  I don't necessarily see what you see, but let's let it play out.  Hopefully you're right and I'm wrong.

[LarBrd33]

Compare Chandler and Noel at the same point in their careers.

[jpotter33]

Compare Chandler and Noel at the same point in their careers.

I imagine they were pretty similar.

I know Chandler was athletic, but was he as athletic as Noel in his younger days? From what I remember, I didn't think he was quite as mobile or had the foot speed that Noel does.

[LarBrd33]

Compare Chandler and Noel at the same point in their careers.

I imagine they were pretty similar.

I know Chandler was athletic, but was he as athletic as Noel in his younger days? From what I remember, I didn't think he was quite as mobile or had the foot speed that Noel does.

Similar stats.   Chandler didn't become a consistent starter until his 6th season in the league at the age of 24. 

[celticsclay]

Compare Chandler and Noel at the same point in their careers.

I imagine they were pretty similar.

I know Chandler was athletic, but was he as athletic as Noel in his younger days? From what I remember, I didn't think he was quite as mobile or had the foot speed that Noel does.

Similar stats.   Chandler didn't become a consistent starter until his 6th season in the league at the age of 24.

I wish we could just get chanlder from the suns for a bag of balls. He is a winner.

[moiso]

Compare Chandler and Noel at the same point in their careers.

I imagine they were pretty similar.

I know Chandler was athletic, but was he as athletic as Noel in his younger days? From what I remember, I didn't think he was quite as mobile or had the foot speed that Noel does.

Chandler is quite a bit taller.  A legit 7'1.  Noel isn't a 7 footer like people keep saying.  He's listed as 6'11 and that seems a little exaggerated.

[KG Living Legend]

Compare Chandler and Noel at the same point in their careers.

I imagine they were pretty similar.

I know Chandler was athletic, but was he as athletic as Noel in his younger days? From what I remember, I didn't think he was quite as mobile or had the foot speed that Noel does.

Chandler is quite a bit taller.  A legit 7'1.  Noel isn't a 7 footer like people keep saying.  He's listed as 6'11 and that seems a little exaggerated.

 He's 6'10" with No shoes. With a 7"4" wingspan. One of the quickest off the floor for a big man that you will ever see.