Woj: Sixers plan on moving one of Noel or Okafor "eventually"

[celticsclay]

I really think the Embiid set back last summer really hurt the Sixers.  I don't think they were really planning on tanking last year and I don't think they would have taken Okafor if Embiid was healthy.  I also don't think Porzingis made much sense either so I think if they couldn't trade the pick they would have gone with Mudiay (they really wanted Russell, but the Lakers ruined that one).  But when Embiid went down again, Okafor became a fairly logical pick because at the time I think they believed Noel and Okafor would have been ok together (maybe not a great fit, but not the terrible fit they ended up being) and because they didn't know if Embiid was ever going to play.

Why didn't Porzingis make sense? Seems like he matched up much better with Noel than Okafor does.

Because they had Noel, Embiid (maybe), and Saric (at some point).  They didn't really need a big man, but obviously felt Okafor was so much better than everyone else available at 3 that they had to take him (if they couldn't find a reasonable trading partner, which they didn't).  I think they believed that Noel would be a fine defensive PF with Okafor at center, and offensively Okafor had enough range to work with Noel on that end.  Porzingis was projected to have more range, but not nearly as versed an offensive game as Okafor and while a better defender, wasn't considered quick enough to really guard opposing PF's (so Noel would have been doing that anyway).  Now obviously, Porzingis was better than advertised, but I don't think going into the draft he really made any more sense than Okafor for Philly, except most people felt Okafor was better.  I do think the Sixers really wanted Russell and he would have been their no brainer selection if he was still there at 3, but when he was gone, Okafor became in their minds the obvious choice.  Again though with Embiid healthy I don't think they pick either Okafor or Porzingis and would have gone with Mudiay.  The Embiid injury and the Lakers selection of Russell really through Philly for a loop.

Okafor will be the one pick that really comes back to bite hinkie... it is his sam bowie. Porzingas will be a perennial all star

[celticsclay]

The main problem is that Okafor is trash and it seems like a lot of teams are able to realize that, so they can't trade Okafor as easily as they wish.  Their best bet might be to wait until the next draft and move Okafor to a team that missed out on one of their intended big man targets, then re-sign Noel.  I think they'd be better off making Okafor come off the bench in a reduced role rather than trading him for the sake of trading him at the trade deadline if it means accepting a paltry return.

I don't think he's necessarily "trash".  It's more that he's pretty flawed and has a skillset that isn't totally conducive for today's NBA.   He & Noel are terrible complements to each other.  Remove one from the other & match them with a different type of frontcourt mate & I think you'll see better results from both of them. 

The league knows this and it certainly hamstrings Philly's leverage in potential trades.

Philly doesn't have leverage to force a trade. But none of the teams that want Okafor/Noel have leverage to force Philly to make a trade either.   Philly is likely "gambling" that someone will come knocking with a legitimate offer they find acceptable.  If the entire league calls their bluff and refuses to make a legitimate offer, Philly will have a tough decision between cashing in one of those guys for a paltry return - or just keeping them in roles that aren't ideal.   

Nobody really has delusions of Philly contending this season one way or the other, so I don't really think it matters. 

There's people here who think Okafor's trade value is a late 1st rounder.  I guess the idea is that Embiid will be such a phenom that there will be minimal minutes left for a guy like Okafor.  So the suggestion is that they need to trade Okafor for someone like RJ Hunter or something.  Ask yourself, is Philly better off having Okafor backing up Embiid and playingy 15-20 minutes off the bench or having someone like RJ Hunter fight for minutes off the bench with Nik Stauskas?   It just doesn't make sense to me that Philly would give away one of these guys for the sake of giving one away - unless things are so hostile and dangerous behind the scenes that making a move has become absolutely necessary.   

[/b]
This is probably the exact fear. Okafor last year was driving 120 on a bridge. He had a gun held to his head at a club. He started multiple street brawls. Whatever is going on down there is making him an absolute ticking time bomb with some sort of death wish. If he is there still mid season what does he start doing? Playing Russian roulette in texas? Noel has been a little more reserved but was still making weed and gatorade cocktails and trashing his house in some perverse effort to be free of the stress of playing for Philly. He even threatened a landowner with a tombstone just to feel alive. They got to unload these guys before things get anymore dangerous for both these guys and the community around them.

Yeah based on that, it seems Okafor's trade value can only go up.  I think he's still their starting center.  Maybe he makes a leap in his second year.

what if he ends up in mail or worse? Surely these are such troubling signs for a young man, a cry for help if you will. Guns, streets brawls, drag racing?

If we had Okafor we wouldn't trade him for the type of offers we've been coming up with.   I'd rather lose a late 1st round pick for nothing than abandon a player of okafor's caliber after a single decent season.

he is not worth a first round pick from jail though? How many guns are going to get pointed at this guy next season? how many fights?

[LarBrd33]

The main problem is that Okafor is trash and it seems like a lot of teams are able to realize that, so they can't trade Okafor as easily as they wish.  Their best bet might be to wait until the next draft and move Okafor to a team that missed out on one of their intended big man targets, then re-sign Noel.  I think they'd be better off making Okafor come off the bench in a reduced role rather than trading him for the sake of trading him at the trade deadline if it means accepting a paltry return.

I don't think he's necessarily "trash".  It's more that he's pretty flawed and has a skillset that isn't totally conducive for today's NBA.   He & Noel are terrible complements to each other.  Remove one from the other & match them with a different type of frontcourt mate & I think you'll see better results from both of them. 

The league knows this and it certainly hamstrings Philly's leverage in potential trades.

Philly doesn't have leverage to force a trade. But none of the teams that want Okafor/Noel have leverage to force Philly to make a trade either.   Philly is likely "gambling" that someone will come knocking with a legitimate offer they find acceptable.  If the entire league calls their bluff and refuses to make a legitimate offer, Philly will have a tough decision between cashing in one of those guys for a paltry return - or just keeping them in roles that aren't ideal.   

Nobody really has delusions of Philly contending this season one way or the other, so I don't really think it matters. 

There's people here who think Okafor's trade value is a late 1st rounder.  I guess the idea is that Embiid will be such a phenom that there will be minimal minutes left for a guy like Okafor.  So the suggestion is that they need to trade Okafor for someone like RJ Hunter or something.  Ask yourself, is Philly better off having Okafor backing up Embiid and playingy 15-20 minutes off the bench or having someone like RJ Hunter fight for minutes off the bench with Nik Stauskas?   It just doesn't make sense to me that Philly would give away one of these guys for the sake of giving one away - unless things are so hostile and dangerous behind the scenes that making a move has become absolutely necessary.   

[/b]
This is probably the exact fear. Okafor last year was driving 120 on a bridge. He had a gun held to his head at a club. He started multiple street brawls. Whatever is going on down there is making him an absolute ticking time bomb with some sort of death wish. If he is there still mid season what does he start doing? Playing Russian roulette in texas? Noel has been a little more reserved but was still making weed and gatorade cocktails and trashing his house in some perverse effort to be free of the stress of playing for Philly. He even threatened a landowner with a tombstone just to feel alive. They got to unload these guys before things get anymore dangerous for both these guys and the community around them.

Yeah based on that, it seems Okafor's trade value can only go up.  I think he's still their starting center.  Maybe he makes a leap in his second year.

what if he ends up in mail or worse? Surely these are such troubling signs for a young man, a cry for help if you will. Guns, streets brawls, drag racing?

If we had Okafor we wouldn't trade him for the type of offers we've been coming up with.   I'd rather lose a late 1st round pick for nothing than abandon a player of okafor's caliber after a single decent season.

he is not worth a first round pick from jail though? How many guns are going to get pointed at this guy next season? how many fights?

I answered your question.  What, honestly, do you assume philly could get for Okafor right now if they needed to pull the trigger on a deal today?  What's the best offer they would get ? 

Mid 1st?  So someone like James young or Yabusele?

Ask yourself if you are more comfortable letting a mid 1st slip through your fingers or gambling on okafor's future.  If okafor's ceiling is multi-year all-star and his floor is "life in prison", I think I'd rather take that gamble than have another mid 1st talent to stack the red claws with.

[celticsclay]

The main problem is that Okafor is trash and it seems like a lot of teams are able to realize that, so they can't trade Okafor as easily as they wish.  Their best bet might be to wait until the next draft and move Okafor to a team that missed out on one of their intended big man targets, then re-sign Noel.  I think they'd be better off making Okafor come off the bench in a reduced role rather than trading him for the sake of trading him at the trade deadline if it means accepting a paltry return.

I don't think he's necessarily "trash".  It's more that he's pretty flawed and has a skillset that isn't totally conducive for today's NBA.   He & Noel are terrible complements to each other.  Remove one from the other & match them with a different type of frontcourt mate & I think you'll see better results from both of them. 

The league knows this and it certainly hamstrings Philly's leverage in potential trades.

Philly doesn't have leverage to force a trade. But none of the teams that want Okafor/Noel have leverage to force Philly to make a trade either.   Philly is likely "gambling" that someone will come knocking with a legitimate offer they find acceptable.  If the entire league calls their bluff and refuses to make a legitimate offer, Philly will have a tough decision between cashing in one of those guys for a paltry return - or just keeping them in roles that aren't ideal.   

Nobody really has delusions of Philly contending this season one way or the other, so I don't really think it matters. 

There's people here who think Okafor's trade value is a late 1st rounder.  I guess the idea is that Embiid will be such a phenom that there will be minimal minutes left for a guy like Okafor.  So the suggestion is that they need to trade Okafor for someone like RJ Hunter or something.  Ask yourself, is Philly better off having Okafor backing up Embiid and playingy 15-20 minutes off the bench or having someone like RJ Hunter fight for minutes off the bench with Nik Stauskas?   It just doesn't make sense to me that Philly would give away one of these guys for the sake of giving one away - unless things are so hostile and dangerous behind the scenes that making a move has become absolutely necessary.   

[/b]
This is probably the exact fear. Okafor last year was driving 120 on a bridge. He had a gun held to his head at a club. He started multiple street brawls. Whatever is going on down there is making him an absolute ticking time bomb with some sort of death wish. If he is there still mid season what does he start doing? Playing Russian roulette in texas? Noel has been a little more reserved but was still making weed and gatorade cocktails and trashing his house in some perverse effort to be free of the stress of playing for Philly. He even threatened a landowner with a tombstone just to feel alive. They got to unload these guys before things get anymore dangerous for both these guys and the community around them.

Yeah based on that, it seems Okafor's trade value can only go up.  I think he's still their starting center.  Maybe he makes a leap in his second year.

what if he ends up in mail or worse? Surely these are such troubling signs for a young man, a cry for help if you will. Guns, streets brawls, drag racing?

If we had Okafor we wouldn't trade him for the type of offers we've been coming up with.   I'd rather lose a late 1st round pick for nothing than abandon a player of okafor's caliber after a single decent season.

he is not worth a first round pick from jail though? How many guns are going to get pointed at this guy next season? how many fights?

I answered your question.  What, honestly, do you assume philly could get for Okafor right now if they needed to pull the trigger on a deal today?  What's the best offer they would get ? 

Mid 1st?  So someone like James young or Yabusele?

Ask yourself if you are more comfortable letting a mid 1st slip through your fingers or gambling on okafor's future.  If okafor's ceiling is multi-year all-star and his floor is "life in prison", I think I'd rather take that gamble than have another mid 1st talent to stack the red claws with.

it is more than just the potential loss of him to prison after a drag race culminating in a gun being drawn at a night club following a series of brawls (comically all things that happened his rookie year, just not at the same time). If that happens it is a PR nightmare that may take years to recover from him. Perhaps he drags one of his teammates down with him? I realize they just signed Elton Brand to be his personal body guard for the next year while sacrificing a roster spot, but is Elton Brand enough? I love Elton Brand but he is just one man. Committing a roster spot to have Brand as a personal baby sitter is also a use of resources.

Michael Vick once claimed, "I have two weapons; my arms, my legs and my brain.”

[dreamgreen]

The main problem is that Okafor is trash and it seems like a lot of teams are able to realize that, so they can't trade Okafor as easily as they wish.  Their best bet might be to wait until the next draft and move Okafor to a team that missed out on one of their intended big man targets, then re-sign Noel.  I think they'd be better off making Okafor come off the bench in a reduced role rather than trading him for the sake of trading him at the trade deadline if it means accepting a paltry return.

I don't think he's necessarily "trash".  It's more that he's pretty flawed and has a skillset that isn't totally conducive for today's NBA.   He & Noel are terrible complements to each other.  Remove one from the other & match them with a different type of frontcourt mate & I think you'll see better results from both of them. 

The league knows this and it certainly hamstrings Philly's leverage in potential trades.

Philly doesn't have leverage to force a trade. But none of the teams that want Okafor/Noel have leverage to force Philly to make a trade either.   Philly is likely "gambling" that someone will come knocking with a legitimate offer they find acceptable.  If the entire league calls their bluff and refuses to make a legitimate offer, Philly will have a tough decision between cashing in one of those guys for a paltry return - or just keeping them in roles that aren't ideal.   

Nobody really has delusions of Philly contending this season one way or the other, so I don't really think it matters. 

There's people here who think Okafor's trade value is a late 1st rounder.  I guess the idea is that Embiid will be such a phenom that there will be minimal minutes left for a guy like Okafor.  So the suggestion is that they need to trade Okafor for someone like RJ Hunter or something.  Ask yourself, is Philly better off having Okafor backing up Embiid and playingy 15-20 minutes off the bench or having someone like RJ Hunter fight for minutes off the bench with Nik Stauskas?   It just doesn't make sense to me that Philly would give away one of these guys for the sake of giving one away - unless things are so hostile and dangerous behind the scenes that making a move has become absolutely necessary.   

[/b]
This is probably the exact fear. Okafor last year was driving 120 on a bridge. He had a gun held to his head at a club. He started multiple street brawls. Whatever is going on down there is making him an absolute ticking time bomb with some sort of death wish. If he is there still mid season what does he start doing? Playing Russian roulette in texas? Noel has been a little more reserved but was still making weed and gatorade cocktails and trashing his house in some perverse effort to be free of the stress of playing for Philly. He even threatened a landowner with a tombstone just to feel alive. They got to unload these guys before things get anymore dangerous for both these guys and the community around them.

Yeah based on that, it seems Okafor's trade value can only go up.  I think he's still their starting center.  Maybe he makes a leap in his second year.

what if he ends up in mail or worse? Surely these are such troubling signs for a young man, a cry for help if you will. Guns, streets brawls, drag racing?

If we had Okafor we wouldn't trade him for the type of offers we've been coming up with.   I'd rather lose a late 1st round pick for nothing than abandon a player of okafor's caliber after a single decent season.

he is not worth a first round pick from jail though? How many guns are going to get pointed at this guy next season? how many fights?

I answered your question.  What, honestly, do you assume philly could get for Okafor right now if they needed to pull the trigger on a deal today?  What's the best offer they would get ? 

Mid 1st?  So someone like James young or Yabusele?

Ask yourself if you are more comfortable letting a mid 1st slip through your fingers or gambling on okafor's future.  If okafor's ceiling is multi-year all-star and his floor is "life in prison", I think I'd rather take that gamble than have another mid 1st talent to stack the red claws with.

it is more than just the potential loss of him to prison after a drag race culminating in a gun being drawn at a night club following a series of brawls (comically all things that happened his rookie year, just not at the same time). If that happens it is a PR nightmare that may take years to recover from him. Perhaps he drags one of his teammates down with him? I realize they just signed Elton Brand to be his personal body guard for the next year while sacrificing a roster spot, but is Elton Brand enough? I love Elton Brand but he is just one man. Committing a roster spot to have Brand as a personal baby sitter is also a use of resources.

Michael Vick once claimed, "I have two weapons; my arms, my legs and my brain.”

TP LOL great quote on Vick. For years I called him the dumbest athlete ever than we had Aaron Hernandez. 

[Snakehead]

I don't think drafting best player available is the problem here. The fact is both players have significant question marks that have little to do with their current team or each other. I just don't think their value is that high. Meanwhile Philly invested a lot in them and want as much in return as possible.

I totally agree.  Both basically are a joke on one side of the ball and have to prove they can improve there at all.  Some here think they are stud prospects but it's just not the case.

I am assuming Philly is asking for a stud prospect asking price for both guys but they aren't going to get it.  One thing I will say contrary to your post though is that their problems do meet being on the same team because both players will only get in each others way as far as playing time and fit.  That's without even considering Embiid.  Between all three, it will be hard for them to develop correctly. 

Anyone considering a trade with the 76ers is in the position of power here.

[celticsclay]

I don't think drafting best player available is the problem here. The fact is both players have significant question marks that have little to do with their current team or each other. I just don't think their value is that high. Meanwhile Philly invested a lot in them and want as much in return as possible.

I totally agree.  Both basically are a joke on one side of the ball and have to prove they can improve there at all.  Some here think they are stud prospects but it's just not the case at all.

perhaps brand can teach them a thing or two #ineltonwetrust #nonothatelton #eltonbrandactually

[Csfan1984]

So who should go? Okafor has a better touch outside to give a little space but his D and attitude is an issue. Noel has the defense but other than put backs and pick and roll his offense is nonexistent. Also Noel is about to be a RFA. Of course Embid was supposed to be able to do it all but given his health and mental questions I would honestly move him instead. Let someone else risk it. Just ask for a top 9 to 13 pick and cut their loses. Hell just two first and a second and I'd deal him.

[MBunge]

I've always been suspicious about the strategy of drafting the best player available. I know many GM's and coaches "say" that's how they draft, but this is an example where it didn't work.

When trading partners realize you "need" to trade a position player because you're too deep at that position, the value of the player reduces, as we're seeing in this situation.

It's obvious that GM's around the league know the 76er need to trade one of the many young center they've collected, and are taking advantage of the situation. 

Kind of similar to collecting too many future draft picks.

That certainly seems to be the narrative, but last I checked Okafor and Noel were both on the 76ers... so teams don't seem to be taking advantage of the situation very well.

The longer they are on there there worse it becomes for the 76ers.

Not really, though.  There's a better than decent chance the offers improve.

Not really.

A contending team might think Noel would be a nice defender to bring off the bench, but a contender either doesn't have or can't give up much for him.

A team that's bottoming out isn't going to give up anything expect a salary dump for a non-franchise guy like Noel.

That basically leaves you with a marketplace of teams that aren't really contenders, have enough assets to give up something without hurting their team and have a real need for a defender with limited offensive upside.  How many teams is that?  And the longer it goes, the less they'll be willing to give up for a guy who could take the qualifying offer and just walk away two years from now.

Mike

[LarBrd33]

I've always been suspicious about the strategy of drafting the best player available. I know many GM's and coaches "say" that's how they draft, but this is an example where it didn't work.

When trading partners realize you "need" to trade a position player because you're too deep at that position, the value of the player reduces, as we're seeing in this situation.

It's obvious that GM's around the league know the 76er need to trade one of the many young center they've collected, and are taking advantage of the situation. 

Kind of similar to collecting too many future draft picks.

That certainly seems to be the narrative, but last I checked Okafor and Noel were both on the 76ers... so teams don't seem to be taking advantage of the situation very well.

The longer they are on there there worse it becomes for the 76ers.

Not really, though.  There's a better than decent chance the offers improve.

Not really.

A contending team might think Noel would be a nice defender to bring off the bench, but a contender either doesn't have or can't give up much for him.

Then Noel will not be traded there.  Simple as that.

There's a better than good chance Okafor makes improvements this year.  If he stays out of trouble, offers will increase.  But if he improves enough, Philly might realize they are better off keeping him.

[Snakehead]

So who should go? Okafor has a better touch outside to give a little space but his D and attitude is an issue. Noel has the defense but other than put backs and pick and roll his offense is nonexistent. Also Noel is about to be a RFA. Of course Embid was supposed to be able to do it all but given his health and mental questions I would honestly move him instead. Let someone else risk it. Just ask for a top 9 to 13 pick and cut their loses. Hell just two first and a second and I'd deal him.

If I'm the one trading with them, I go for Okafor.  He has only had one season and I would be betting on his defense improving with effort.   You would hope on the Celtics he would be held accountable and also even be able to be hidden a bit by a number of strong defenders on the team.  It's a jump to make these assumptions, but for me I think effort and the right team around him could turn that around.  His touch on offense is rare.

With Noel we have seen more than one season of him and I have seen little to see any reason to believe his offensive would improve.

For me, I think Embiid is going to stay for sure because of the investment in him they have and the fact that they sort of need to swing for the fences.  He still has that potential and if you're the 76ers you have to hold onto the lottery ticket.

And like I said before, I think any team trading clearly has the leverage and I would not give up a lottery pick (unless possibly a late one) for Noel or Okafor.  I do not think anything more than that would be a good trade.  Too many question marks with both guys and you have the leverage.

[celticsclay]

This discussion really raises the question of what team would want to add a player like Okafor and get enough value out of him to warrant paying a reasonable price. If you look around the look a lot of teams actually already have young centers and power forwards they are developing on their own.

The Kings for example have Koufos, WCS, Cousins etc
The Nuggets have Jokic and Nurkic
The Twolves have Towns and Dieng
The Jazz got Gorbert and Favors
Pistons got Drummond
Magic got big money in Vucevic, Bismack
Pacers developing Myles Turner
Knicks got Porzingas

I think the Lakers could use him to a degree, but I doubt he could play with Randle who they seem to be invested in

It is really hard to see him getting traded to a serious contender like Cleveland, San Antonio Golden State or even the mid playoff teams like the Hawks (Dwight for big money).

You go through all the teams and it really seems like only a handful could both use him, and have assets to trade for him. Even a team like the Nets that is desperate for talent would probably want to really trade Brook first which is another obstacle.

[LarBrd33]

There's nothing here that wasn't admitted by Bryan Colangelo back in July.  Everyone knows they would prefer to move one of the bigs for an equal value at a position of need.  Nobody has offered equal value at a position of need, so the bigs remain.  Here's actual quotes from Colangelo:

"There's no question you can look at our roster and say we have some unbalance," said Bryan Colangelo. "We're top heavy. We have some good talent there."

"We have to figure out what we're going to do with everybody. When you look at the calls coming in, quite frankly, everyone's trying to poach a big man from us."

"We're not going to make a bad deal just to make a deal. I think we can be a better basketball team if we can distribute that talent better. Maybe take one of those assets and address other needs on the roster. I think right now it's best to say we like all of them, we want to see if we can make the most out of each of them. At the end of the day, the reality says one has to go at some point but only when the deal is right."

So I guess the question is... what if the deal is never right?  Well then maybe you see them bend over and do a pennies on the dollar deal like Okafor for Smart + Rozier, but until then it seems Philly is waiting for someone to give them what they see as equal value.

[celticsclay]

There's nothing here that wasn't admitted by Bryan Colangelo back in July.  Everyone knows they would prefer to move one of the bigs for an equal value at a position of need.  Nobody has offered equal value at a position of need, so the bigs remain.  Here's actual quotes from Colangelo:

"There's no question you can look at our roster and say we have some unbalance," said Bryan Colangelo. "We're top heavy. We have some good talent there."

"We have to figure out what we're going to do with everybody. When you look at the calls coming in, quite frankly, everyone's trying to poach a big man from us."

"We're not going to make a bad deal just to make a deal. I think we can be a better basketball team if we can distribute that talent better. Maybe take one of those assets and address other needs on the roster. I think right now it's best to say we like all of them, we want to see if we can make the most out of each of them. At the end of the day, the reality says one has to go at some point but only when the deal is right."

So I guess the question is... what if the deal is never right?  Well then maybe you see them bend over and do a pennies on the dollar deal like Okafor for Smart + Rozier, but until then it seems Philly is waiting for someone to give them what they see as equal value.

That would be multiple dollars on the dollar. The 76ers would poo themselves if they could get smart alone. Maybe they do get rozier and a late first if they are really lucky.

[celticsclay]