Better fit: Noel or Drummond

[hwangjini_1]

Drummond is better at everything besides free throw shooting. Drummond averaged 16 points and 15 rebounds and just turned 23. I would be surprised if Noel ever averaged that in a season in his career.

Bill Russell and Shaq couldn't shoot FTs, either. Drummond is in good company. 

neither can i!!!!!i guess drummond's company just keeps improving. 

[celticsclay]

So with the recent Noel tweet all but confirming him being traded to Boston ( ), for some reason, I got to wondering, how much better is Drummond than Noel? Or are the two nearly interchangeable since they seem to have similar skill sets (defensive monsters who can't shoot)? More importantly (I think), which player would be a better fit with our team?

Welcome to the offseason.

Better fit: Durant or Rudy Gay?

Well played

[jpotter33]

Not necessarily true.

Oh, Brother, it was certainly true.

ith the contexts of both teams in perspective, it's hard to really compare the two via traditional stats. Drummond is excelling due to the 1 in, 4 out philosophy that SVG has mastered over the years, and that allows him A) much more space down low to operate, B) many more rebounds to gobble up down low, which has inflated his numbers a bit, especially his rebounding numbers. On the other hand, Noel played pretty much all of last year out of position at the PF spot next to Okafor. That both hurt his overall game and his rebounding numbers significantly, even though Noel is an elite rebounder himself. So going purely off of traditional statistics is flawed in this respect.

Further, even if his points and rebounds were better, though they were certainly skewed due to the system, outside of turnovers Noel is even or better than Drummond statistically across the board. He's a much better passer than Drummond with a higher BBIQ, and overall he's better defensively with better numbers in blocks, steals (and their respective percentages), and the fact that he's much more mobile and can actually switch off onto perimeter guys and be effective. In fact, the only thing that Drummond might be better defensively than Noel is low post defense against post-ups due primarily to his much bigger size.

So it's inaccurate to say he's better than Noel at everything outside of free throw shooting. I'd give Drummond the edge right now, but it's certainly a much closer comparison than you make it out to be. I bet Noel could average similar numbers in Detroit under SVG's system while making them a bit better and more mobile defensively.

What are you Captain Literal?   This was load of BS.   100% of GMs and would take Drummond over Noel.  Is better at everything, not literally.   But look at this comparison.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/andre_drummond_vs_nerlens_noel.htm

One can see that Drummond is generally the superior player.

Ah, ad hominem attacks without actually responding or critiquing any of the analysis, must be a Celtics4ever post!  How about actually responding to arguments instead of just attacking other posters for once?

[jpotter33]

Drummond is better at everything besides free throw shooting. Drummond averaged 16 points and 15 rebounds and just turned 23. I would be surprised if Noel ever averaged that in a season in his career.

Not necessarily true.

With the contexts of both teams in perspective, it's hard to really compare the two via traditional stats. Drummond is excelling due to the 1 in, 4 out philosophy that SVG has mastered over the years, and that allows him A) much more space down low to operate, B) many more rebounds to gobble up down low, which has inflated his numbers a bit, especially his rebounding numbers. On the other hand, Noel played pretty much all of last year out of position at the PF spot next to Okafor. That both hurt his overall game and his rebounding numbers significantly, even though Noel is an elite rebounder himself. So going purely off of traditional statistics is flawed in this respect.

Did you forget that for 3 out of his 4 seasons (save for last year) Drummond played alongside Monroe? What did he average in those 3 seasons you ask?

Year 1 (rookie season, age 19, only 20 mpg)
7.9 ppg   7.6 rpg

Year 2
13.5 ppg   13.2 rpg

Year 3
13.8 ppg   13.5 rpg

True, but towards the end SVG ultimately decided on playing the two separately at C due to them not being able to thrive together and both being much better statistically as the 5 with the other 4 out on the perimeter.

Further, that still kept AD at the basket, because he was the "true" 5 of the pairing. Noel always had to be out on the perimeter defending with Okafor down low, so it's still skewed. And as we've seen the last two years, the bigs really benefit when there's actually competent guards on the roster, which has NOT been the case in Philly the last two years.

Drummond is the better rebounder, but he's a generational talent in that regard. Noel is also a very high level to elite rebounder himself.

[celticsclay]

Drummond is better at everything besides free throw shooting. Drummond averaged 16 points and 15 rebounds and just turned 23. I would be surprised if Noel ever averaged that in a season in his career.

Not necessarily true.

With the contexts of both teams in perspective, it's hard to really compare the two via traditional stats. Drummond is excelling due to the 1 in, 4 out philosophy that SVG has mastered over the years, and that allows him A) much more space down low to operate, B) many more rebounds to gobble up down low, which has inflated his numbers a bit, especially his rebounding numbers. On the other hand, Noel played pretty much all of last year out of position at the PF spot next to Okafor. That both hurt his overall game and his rebounding numbers significantly, even though Noel is an elite rebounder himself. So going purely off of traditional statistics is flawed in this respect.

Did you forget that for 3 out of his 4 seasons (save for last year) Drummond played alongside Monroe? What did he average in those 3 seasons you ask?

Year 1 (rookie season, age 19, only 20 mpg)
7.9 ppg   7.6 rpg

Year 2
13.5 ppg   13.2 rpg

Year 3
13.8 ppg   13.5 rpg

True, but towards the end SVG ultimately decided on playing the two separately at C due to them not being able to thrive together and both being much better statistically as the 5 with the other 4 out on the perimeter.

Further, that still kept AD at the basket, because he was the "true" 5 of the pairing. Noel always had to be out on the perimeter defending with Okafor down low, so it's still skewed. And as we've seen the last two years, the bigs really benefit when there's actually competent guards on the roster, which has NOT been the case in Philly the last two years.

Drummond is the better rebounder, but he's a generational talent in that regard. Noel is also a very high level to elite rebounder himself.

Are people really arguing like we would be better off with noel than drummond? If we really wanted noel for some reason we could get drummond and then trade him for Noel and two first round picks. Drummond is a significantly better player and can be a real force down low. Especially with the changing hack a shaq rules he is going to become an even bigger offensive force. We are going to turn that all down because Noel can "generate steals." Come on guys this thread makes us look like we don't know anything about basketball.

[SHAQATTACK]

Cousins

Correct answer..

[jpotter33]

Drummond is better at everything besides free throw shooting. Drummond averaged 16 points and 15 rebounds and just turned 23. I would be surprised if Noel ever averaged that in a season in his career.

Not necessarily true.

With the contexts of both teams in perspective, it's hard to really compare the two via traditional stats. Drummond is excelling due to the 1 in, 4 out philosophy that SVG has mastered over the years, and that allows him A) much more space down low to operate, B) many more rebounds to gobble up down low, which has inflated his numbers a bit, especially his rebounding numbers. On the other hand, Noel played pretty much all of last year out of position at the PF spot next to Okafor. That both hurt his overall game and his rebounding numbers significantly, even though Noel is an elite rebounder himself. So going purely off of traditional statistics is flawed in this respect.

Did you forget that for 3 out of his 4 seasons (save for last year) Drummond played alongside Monroe? What did he average in those 3 seasons you ask?

Year 1 (rookie season, age 19, only 20 mpg)
7.9 ppg   7.6 rpg

Year 2
13.5 ppg   13.2 rpg

Year 3
13.8 ppg   13.5 rpg

True, but towards the end SVG ultimately decided on playing the two separately at C due to them not being able to thrive together and both being much better statistically as the 5 with the other 4 out on the perimeter.

Further, that still kept AD at the basket, because he was the "true" 5 of the pairing. Noel always had to be out on the perimeter defending with Okafor down low, so it's still skewed. And as we've seen the last two years, the bigs really benefit when there's actually competent guards on the roster, which has NOT been the case in Philly the last two years.

Drummond is the better rebounder, but he's a generational talent in that regard. Noel is also a very high level to elite rebounder himself.

Are people really arguing like we would be better off with noel than drummond? If we really wanted noel for some reason we could get drummond and then trade him for Noel and two first round picks. Drummond is a significantly better player and can be a real force down low. Especially with the changing hack a shaq rules he is going to become an even bigger offensive force. We are going to turn that all down because Noel can "generate steals." Come on guys this thread makes us look like we don't know anything about basketball.

No, it's due to our context. Noel is a much better defensive fit for our system than Drummond, especially now with Horford, because he can switch and guard out on the perimeter due to a much higher mobility. This is highlighted by his better block and steal rates/percentages than Drummond.

Offensively, though he isn't the low post player that Drummond is, he's a much better fit in our running offense that aims to create turnovers and push the pace. In fact, he'd be an elite fast break 5 for us. Further, in addition to this fact and the non-issue with the hack-a-Drummond technique, he's a much better passer than Drummond, which is needed in our system.

So though Drummond is the overall better player, Noel is clearly a better fit for us. This thread shows that we understand basketball and the necessity of fit and context in this regard. You don't seem to appreciate this fact and are treating this like the best player should always be considered the better fit, which just isn't true.

[Moranis]

Drummond is better at everything besides free throw shooting. Drummond averaged 16 points and 15 rebounds and just turned 23. I would be surprised if Noel ever averaged that in a season in his career.

Not necessarily true.

With the contexts of both teams in perspective, it's hard to really compare the two via traditional stats. Drummond is excelling due to the 1 in, 4 out philosophy that SVG has mastered over the years, and that allows him A) much more space down low to operate, B) many more rebounds to gobble up down low, which has inflated his numbers a bit, especially his rebounding numbers. On the other hand, Noel played pretty much all of last year out of position at the PF spot next to Okafor. That both hurt his overall game and his rebounding numbers significantly, even though Noel is an elite rebounder himself. So going purely off of traditional statistics is flawed in this respect.

Did you forget that for 3 out of his 4 seasons (save for last year) Drummond played alongside Monroe? What did he average in those 3 seasons you ask?

Year 1 (rookie season, age 19, only 20 mpg)
7.9 ppg   7.6 rpg

Year 2
13.5 ppg   13.2 rpg

Year 3
13.8 ppg   13.5 rpg

True, but towards the end SVG ultimately decided on playing the two separately at C due to them not being able to thrive together and both being much better statistically as the 5 with the other 4 out on the perimeter.

Further, that still kept AD at the basket, because he was the "true" 5 of the pairing. Noel always had to be out on the perimeter defending with Okafor down low, so it's still skewed. And as we've seen the last two years, the bigs really benefit when there's actually competent guards on the roster, which has NOT been the case in Philly the last two years.

Drummond is the better rebounder, but he's a generational talent in that regard. Noel is also a very high level to elite rebounder himself.

Are people really arguing like we would be better off with noel than drummond? If we really wanted noel for some reason we could get drummond and then trade him for Noel and two first round picks. Drummond is a significantly better player and can be a real force down low. Especially with the changing hack a shaq rules he is going to become an even bigger offensive force. We are going to turn that all down because Noel can "generate steals." Come on guys this thread makes us look like we don't know anything about basketball.

No, it's due to our context. Noel is a much better defensive fit for our system than Drummond, especially now with Horford, because he can switch and guard out on the perimeter due to a much higher mobility. This is highlighted by his better block and steal rates/percentages than Drummond.

Offensively, though he isn't the low post player that Drummond is, he's a much better fit in our running offense that aims to create turnovers and push the pace. In fact, he'd be an elite fast break 5 for us. Further, in addition to this fact and the non-issue with the hack-a-Drummond technique, he's a much better passer than Drummond, which is needed in our system.

So though Drummond is the overall better player, Noel is clearly a better fit for us. This thread shows that we understand basketball and the necessity of fit and context in this regard. You don't seem to appreciate this fact and are treating this like the best player should always be considered the better fit, which just isn't true.

Noel may be the better fit but Drummond is so much better than him, you have to take Drummond 100 times out of 100.

That said Drummond isn't available, but let's just assume both he and Noel are available, the cost of acquiring Drummond would be so much more than the cost of acquiring Noel that the smart basketball move might be to trade for Noel even though Drummond is the better player given the cost/fit. 

[celticsclay]

Drummond is better at everything besides free throw shooting. Drummond averaged 16 points and 15 rebounds and just turned 23. I would be surprised if Noel ever averaged that in a season in his career.

Not necessarily true.

With the contexts of both teams in perspective, it's hard to really compare the two via traditional stats. Drummond is excelling due to the 1 in, 4 out philosophy that SVG has mastered over the years, and that allows him A) much more space down low to operate, B) many more rebounds to gobble up down low, which has inflated his numbers a bit, especially his rebounding numbers. On the other hand, Noel played pretty much all of last year out of position at the PF spot next to Okafor. That both hurt his overall game and his rebounding numbers significantly, even though Noel is an elite rebounder himself. So going purely off of traditional statistics is flawed in this respect.

Did you forget that for 3 out of his 4 seasons (save for last year) Drummond played alongside Monroe? What did he average in those 3 seasons you ask?

Year 1 (rookie season, age 19, only 20 mpg)
7.9 ppg   7.6 rpg

Year 2
13.5 ppg   13.2 rpg

Year 3
13.8 ppg   13.5 rpg

True, but towards the end SVG ultimately decided on playing the two separately at C due to them not being able to thrive together and both being much better statistically as the 5 with the other 4 out on the perimeter.

Further, that still kept AD at the basket, because he was the "true" 5 of the pairing. Noel always had to be out on the perimeter defending with Okafor down low, so it's still skewed. And as we've seen the last two years, the bigs really benefit when there's actually competent guards on the roster, which has NOT been the case in Philly the last two years.

Drummond is the better rebounder, but he's a generational talent in that regard. Noel is also a very high level to elite rebounder himself.

Are people really arguing like we would be better off with noel than drummond? If we really wanted noel for some reason we could get drummond and then trade him for Noel and two first round picks. Drummond is a significantly better player and can be a real force down low. Especially with the changing hack a shaq rules he is going to become an even bigger offensive force. We are going to turn that all down because Noel can "generate steals." Come on guys this thread makes us look like we don't know anything about basketball.

No, it's due to our context. Noel is a much better defensive fit for our system than Drummond, especially now with Horford, because he can switch and guard out on the perimeter due to a much higher mobility. This is highlighted by his better block and steal rates/percentages than Drummond.

Offensively, though he isn't the low post player that Drummond is, he's a much better fit in our running offense that aims to create turnovers and push the pace. In fact, he'd be an elite fast break 5 for us. Further, in addition to this fact and the non-issue with the hack-a-Drummond technique, he's a much better passer than Drummond, which is needed in our system.

So though Drummond is the overall better player, Noel is clearly a better fit for us. This thread shows that we understand basketball and the necessity of fit and context in this regard. You don't seem to appreciate this fact and are treating this like the best player should always be considered the better fit, which just isn't true.

no... you when a player is as talented you say screw the fit and find a way to make your team him. We could use korver as an easier fit than lowry because we could use some more shooting and already have IT, Bradley and Smart. However, you take Lowry and figure it out because he is ten times better than Korver.

If we want to get into a whole what is worth it for what they would cost debate I don't really see the point.

[Ilikesports17]

Drummond is better at everything besides free throw shooting. Drummond averaged 16 points and 15 rebounds and just turned 23. I would be surprised if Noel ever averaged that in a season in his career.

Not necessarily true.

With the contexts of both teams in perspective, it's hard to really compare the two via traditional stats. Drummond is excelling due to the 1 in, 4 out philosophy that SVG has mastered over the years, and that allows him A) much more space down low to operate, B) many more rebounds to gobble up down low, which has inflated his numbers a bit, especially his rebounding numbers. On the other hand, Noel played pretty much all of last year out of position at the PF spot next to Okafor. That both hurt his overall game and his rebounding numbers significantly, even though Noel is an elite rebounder himself. So going purely off of traditional statistics is flawed in this respect.

Did you forget that for 3 out of his 4 seasons (save for last year) Drummond played alongside Monroe? What did he average in those 3 seasons you ask?

Year 1 (rookie season, age 19, only 20 mpg)
7.9 ppg   7.6 rpg

Year 2
13.5 ppg   13.2 rpg

Year 3
13.8 ppg   13.5 rpg

True, but towards the end SVG ultimately decided on playing the two separately at C due to them not being able to thrive together and both being much better statistically as the 5 with the other 4 out on the perimeter.

Further, that still kept AD at the basket, because he was the "true" 5 of the pairing. Noel always had to be out on the perimeter defending with Okafor down low, so it's still skewed. And as we've seen the last two years, the bigs really benefit when there's actually competent guards on the roster, which has NOT been the case in Philly the last two years.

Drummond is the better rebounder, but he's a generational talent in that regard. Noel is also a very high level to elite rebounder himself.

Are people really arguing like we would be better off with noel than drummond? If we really wanted noel for some reason we could get drummond and then trade him for Noel and two first round picks. Drummond is a significantly better player and can be a real force down low. Especially with the changing hack a shaq rules he is going to become an even bigger offensive force. We are going to turn that all down because Noel can "generate steals." Come on guys this thread makes us look like we don't know anything about basketball.

No, it's due to our context. Noel is a much better defensive fit for our system than Drummond, especially now with Horford, because he can switch and guard out on the perimeter due to a much higher mobility. This is highlighted by his better block and steal rates/percentages than Drummond.

Offensively, though he isn't the low post player that Drummond is, he's a much better fit in our running offense that aims to create turnovers and push the pace. In fact, he'd be an elite fast break 5 for us. Further, in addition to this fact and the non-issue with the hack-a-Drummond technique, he's a much better passer than Drummond, which is needed in our system.

So though Drummond is the overall better player, Noel is clearly a better fit for us. This thread shows that we understand basketball and the necessity of fit and context in this regard. You don't seem to appreciate this fact and are treating this like the best player should always be considered the better fit, which just isn't true.

no... you when a player is as talented you say screw the fit and find a way to make your team him. We could use korver as an easier fit than lowry because we could use some more shooting and already have IT, Bradley and Smart. However, you take Lowry and figure it out because he is ten times better than Korver.

If we want to get into a whole what is worth it for what they would cost debate I don't really see the point.

talent wins.

[jpotter33]

Drummond is better at everything besides free throw shooting. Drummond averaged 16 points and 15 rebounds and just turned 23. I would be surprised if Noel ever averaged that in a season in his career.

Not necessarily true.

With the contexts of both teams in perspective, it's hard to really compare the two via traditional stats. Drummond is excelling due to the 1 in, 4 out philosophy that SVG has mastered over the years, and that allows him A) much more space down low to operate, B) many more rebounds to gobble up down low, which has inflated his numbers a bit, especially his rebounding numbers. On the other hand, Noel played pretty much all of last year out of position at the PF spot next to Okafor. That both hurt his overall game and his rebounding numbers significantly, even though Noel is an elite rebounder himself. So going purely off of traditional statistics is flawed in this respect.

Did you forget that for 3 out of his 4 seasons (save for last year) Drummond played alongside Monroe? What did he average in those 3 seasons you ask?

Year 1 (rookie season, age 19, only 20 mpg)
7.9 ppg   7.6 rpg

Year 2
13.5 ppg   13.2 rpg

Year 3
13.8 ppg   13.5 rpg

True, but towards the end SVG ultimately decided on playing the two separately at C due to them not being able to thrive together and both being much better statistically as the 5 with the other 4 out on the perimeter.

Further, that still kept AD at the basket, because he was the "true" 5 of the pairing. Noel always had to be out on the perimeter defending with Okafor down low, so it's still skewed. And as we've seen the last two years, the bigs really benefit when there's actually competent guards on the roster, which has NOT been the case in Philly the last two years.

Drummond is the better rebounder, but he's a generational talent in that regard. Noel is also a very high level to elite rebounder himself.

Are people really arguing like we would be better off with noel than drummond? If we really wanted noel for some reason we could get drummond and then trade him for Noel and two first round picks. Drummond is a significantly better player and can be a real force down low. Especially with the changing hack a shaq rules he is going to become an even bigger offensive force. We are going to turn that all down because Noel can "generate steals." Come on guys this thread makes us look like we don't know anything about basketball.

No, it's due to our context. Noel is a much better defensive fit for our system than Drummond, especially now with Horford, because he can switch and guard out on the perimeter due to a much higher mobility. This is highlighted by his better block and steal rates/percentages than Drummond.

Offensively, though he isn't the low post player that Drummond is, he's a much better fit in our running offense that aims to create turnovers and push the pace. In fact, he'd be an elite fast break 5 for us. Further, in addition to this fact and the non-issue with the hack-a-Drummond technique, he's a much better passer than Drummond, which is needed in our system.

So though Drummond is the overall better player, Noel is clearly a better fit for us. This thread shows that we understand basketball and the necessity of fit and context in this regard. You don't seem to appreciate this fact and are treating this like the best player should always be considered the better fit, which just isn't true.

no... you when a player is as talented you say screw the fit and find a way to make your team him. We could use korver as an easier fit than lowry because we could use some more shooting and already have IT, Bradley and Smart. However, you take Lowry and figure it out because he is ten times better than Korver.

If we want to get into a whole what is worth it for what they would cost debate I don't really see the point.

Naw, I don't think Drummond is a big enough upgrade over Noel to eschew fit. I'd prefer Noel to him long-term, because I think he has higher upside overall than Drummond, who might have just put up his best season of his career. Drummond is just in an absolute perfect situation for his skill set to maximize his talent. I guarantee you that Noel would put up similar numbers with a better overall defensive impact if he played in Detroit, or at least a system that fits his overall skill set as well as Detroit fits Drummond's.

[Celtics4ever]

Naw, I don't think Drummond is a big enough upgrade over Noel to eschew fit

Yeah, double the rebounds is nothing.  Who cares about that?

[max215]

I'd rather have Noel. Unlike Drummond, he is both a good defender and playable in crunch time.

[celticsclay]

Lol this thread is a trip.

[greece66]

Drummond.