Author Topic: Does Palming Bother You?  (Read 12522 times)

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Does Palming Bother You?
« on: August 03, 2016, 11:30:16 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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It's August, and I'm a basketball junkie, so of course I was watching some Isaiah Thomas highlights this morning.



(Hmm ... is his hand on the side of the ball there?)

Man, his footwork, his use of change of speed, his ability to draw contact and then surge toward the basket and finish ... it's all really, really impressive, even if you ignore that he does it all while being shorter than even me, a roughly average sized adult male.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFAv08sUS-8


One thing that becomes clear pretty quickly in these highlights, however, is that a major component of Isaiah's driving game is his mastery of a particular move: hesitating and leaning back for a split second while the ball is in his hand mid-dribble, throwing the defender off-balance.  It is at that exact moment, when the defender has no idea if Isaiah will stop, step back, move to one side or the other, or surge forward, that Isaiah strikes, creating separation and usually getting very close to the basket, if not all the way to the cup.

But wait, isn't that palming?  My dad certainly thinks so.  One of his favorite complaints during NBA games is that the players travel constantly (ahem, LeBron), and palm the ball constantly.

I'll let Shaun Powell from the Hangtime blog explain in more depth:

Quote
Back in the Allen Iverson days, the league became alarmed with the evolution of the dribble. You can blame it on Tim Hardaway, the unofficial inventor of the crossover. Hardaway’s sleight-of-hand was perfectly legal, if you saw it in slo-mo, because he was that good at pulling it off. But it spawned millions of poor imitators who lifted the ball underneath while changing directions. That’s a palm, or a carry, as they called it back in the day.

It got so bad that today, they actually teach “palming” (ahem, crossover) to little kids. Yes, pretty soon, an entire generation began lifting the ball, pulling the ball, dragging the ball, everything but legally dribbling the ball. And the high schools and colleges looked the other way. Eventually, so did the NBA, for a while.

When Iverson violated every dribble rule in the book to gain an unfair advantage on his defender, the NBA decided to crack down. The “Iverson Rule” was put to test during the preseason and, just like now, players protested. The rule was enforced for roughly two months. Then, it was back to business as usual. Only once in a while, when a palm is just too obvious to ignore, does the whistle blow. Never with two minutes left in a tight game, however.

Basically, the players took ownership of the dribble and rewrote the rule book, and the NBA essentially allowed it to happen. Jamal Crawford, the Sixth Man of the Year, owes his career to palming. So does Dwyane Wade and countless others. And it’s even gotten worse: Now players are lifting the ball for a split second, and just as the defender thinks the player is about to stop dribbling, that player continues his dribble, clearly gaining an advantage because the defender is now off-balance. Phil Jackson calls it the “discontinue dribble” and it is rarely enforced.


I'd say that our own Isaiah Thomas, like Crawford, owes his career to the new laxity in the dribble rules.  Probably even more so than Wade or Crawford, considering that his tiny size means his ability to create separation is an absolutely vital part of his game.


What do you think?  Is rampant palming, and other sleight of hand that isn't exactly legal under the exact wording of the rules, a problem?  Or does it allow the kind of free-flowing wizardry and one-on-one highlight reel ankle-breaking that makes the game especially fun to watch on a random night in January?
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Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2016, 11:38:13 AM »

Offline gift

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I'm ok with it since it's so difficult to call consistently. Get used to it. Jaylen Brown relies heavily on carrying the ball. A lot of people do.

Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2016, 11:38:20 AM »

Offline GratefulCs

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It does bother me. But it's just a way of life now


It's just silly that it's a rule still.

And they call it arbitrarily a dozen times a year
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Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2016, 11:39:42 AM »

Offline cornbread1981

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no it does not they dont call it so whats the big deal

Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2016, 11:41:39 AM »

Offline SCeltic34

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TP for the post.  I recall during one of the games this past season where one of the opposing teams' home announcers (don't recall which) exclaimed "He (referring to IT) carries the ball all the time!"  And it's true.  If palming violations were called routinely, IT would probably be among the league leaders for the infraction. 

That said, it's far more advantageous in the modern era to get away with as many infractions as you can and make it a routine part of your game, thus making officials refrain from blowing their whistles every time you violate a rule simply because you do it so often.  For example, KG's illegal screens, or his "set shot" where he'd take two steps after catching the ball to get into his shooting motion.  LeBron's blatant 3-step travels.  IT's palming.

Palming does bother me a bit, and I would like to see it called more often.  But I don't believe that if it were called more tightly that it would drastically influence how effective players who do it routinely - IT, Jamal Crawford, etc - are.  Overall, it makes for more entertaining basketball, but is a disservice to older eras where blatant travelling wasn't acceptable.

Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2016, 11:45:23 AM »

Offline chiken Green

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Palming no..  Traveling though - omg lol.. Yes.

Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2016, 11:48:10 AM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Steve Kerr coincidentally one time brought up palming/carrying, and how great players used it as a separation or hesitation dribble move to create plenty of space.

I see nothing wrong with it, as long as it isn't blatantly obvious, or on purpose.
Quote
Through four games with the Celtics, Thomas is averaging 22.3 points in 27.8 minutes per game. Getting into the paint, drawing free throws and breaking down defenses, he has spurred lengthy offensive runs in each of the last three games.

"He's taken advantage of the new NBA rule of carrying the ball is perfectly legal," Kerr laughed. "Along with many other guards. Isaiah's not alone. My guy (Stephen Curry) does it too. I was sort of half-joking, but I am being perfectly honest when I say the liberal call or lack thereof on the carry has made guarding high screens almost impossible at times. When a guy can discontinue his dribble and go up to make a pass or shoot, and then just dribble again with a screener in his way, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do as a defender. Everybody does it. Everybody around the league.

"Isaiah's really good at a high screen anyway, and given the way that the game is called and the way the game is played, everyone's going small, shooters all over the floor. And he's a really powerful force."

Kerr continued: "So I'm sure that's what (Celtics president of basketball operations) Danny (Ainge) saw, one of the reasons he wanted to trade (for) him. You've gotta have a guy who's going to force defenses to respond and react, and Isaiah's one of those guys."

If we're going by the official rule book, then technically the masterful crossover Allen Iverson did on Michael Jordan shouldn't have ever counted, because it was technically considered a 'carry.'

The only reason moves like the hesitation dribble, triple pump fake, step backs, crossovers, etc, are allowed is because of the consistency of the speed taken when completing the move. If someone stepped back super slow, then it would count as a travel.

The more refined the move looks, the better chances of it not being called are likely.
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Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2016, 11:53:28 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I'm for it.  If always felt that if your hand dips all the way to the underside of the ball, then you have to call a carry, or if you trap it against your body, or if you come out so wide from your body that you kind of lose control.  Other than that, if you just cradle it to the side while hesitating, like Isaiah is a master of, I'm cool.

Side note:

One of the things I've always loved about Rondo is that he is a very pure dribbler.  He almost always keeps the ball low with his hands on top of the ball.
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Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2016, 11:57:28 AM »

Offline Monkhouse

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I'm for it.  If always felt that if your hand dips all the way to the underside of the ball, then you have to call a carry, or if you trap it against your body, or if you come out so wide from your body that you kind of lose control.  Other than that, if you just cradle it to the side while hesitating, like Isaiah is a master of, I'm cool.

Side note:

One of the things I've always loved about Rondo is that he is a very pure dribbler.  He almost always keeps the ball low with his hands on top of the ball.

Yup, I loved Rondo's ballhandling, and I still think to this day, he had one of the best penetrating dribble moves. If he was only more consistent with his euro step, and behind the back ball fake that Pistol Pete was known for, I think he could've certainly been a better scorer.

The lack of being able to shoot, and make defenders pay is only a testament to how much emphasis is on spacing.
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Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2016, 12:03:01 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'm for it.  If always felt that if your hand dips all the way to the underside of the ball, then you have to call a carry, or if you trap it against your body, or if you come out so wide from your body that you kind of lose control.  Other than that, if you just cradle it to the side while hesitating, like Isaiah is a master of, I'm cool.

Side note:

One of the things I've always loved about Rondo is that he is a very pure dribbler.  He almost always keeps the ball low with his hands on top of the ball.

Eh, Rondo palms the ball all of the time, though not in quite the same way as Isaiah.
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Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2016, 12:05:50 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I'm for it.  If always felt that if your hand dips all the way to the underside of the ball, then you have to call a carry, or if you trap it against your body, or if you come out so wide from your body that you kind of lose control.  Other than that, if you just cradle it to the side while hesitating, like Isaiah is a master of, I'm cool.

Side note:

One of the things I've always loved about Rondo is that he is a very pure dribbler.  He almost always keeps the ball low with his hands on top of the ball.

Eh, Rondo palms the ball all of the time, though not in quite the same way as Isaiah.

Well, when you have freak hands like Rondo, its tough not to basically palm the ball all the time. His hands are insanely huge.


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Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2016, 12:13:53 PM »

Offline mef730

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Palming no..  Traveling though - omg lol.. Yes.

An oldie but goodie for you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVs6qmtrcAo

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Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2016, 12:23:34 PM »

Offline gift

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I think the only reason for the rule right now is so that there is something already on the books if the league decides it needs to start enforcing it. They are ok with how it is being used right now, and honestly it would impossible to call a consistent line between carries vs. almost carries given how many times per game and how quickly they occur.

Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2016, 12:24:45 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'm for it.  If always felt that if your hand dips all the way to the underside of the ball, then you have to call a carry, or if you trap it against your body, or if you come out so wide from your body that you kind of lose control.  Other than that, if you just cradle it to the side while hesitating, like Isaiah is a master of, I'm cool.

Side note:

One of the things I've always loved about Rondo is that he is a very pure dribbler.  He almost always keeps the ball low with his hands on top of the ball.

Eh, Rondo palms the ball all of the time, though not in quite the same way as Isaiah.

Well, when you have freak hands like Rondo, its tough not to basically palm the ball all the time. His hands are insanely huge.

That's true.  Rondo has certainly learned to use it to full effect, though he's very different from IT in that he's learned to palm as a way to create angles for passes, rather than separation for drives and pull-up jumpers.
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Re: Does Palming Bother You?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2016, 12:26:56 PM »

Offline gift

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I'm for it.  If always felt that if your hand dips all the way to the underside of the ball, then you have to call a carry, or if you trap it against your body, or if you come out so wide from your body that you kind of lose control.  Other than that, if you just cradle it to the side while hesitating, like Isaiah is a master of, I'm cool.


This has always been my sort of preference too. If your hand dips below the ball and you rotate it back up, that's no good. But if your handle is mostly on the side of the ball I find it acceptable.

I used to do this thing when I was a kid where I would rotate my hand around the ball without altering the ball's movement. I considered this to technically not be a carry but most people weren't willing to indulge that level of technicality. So I don't indulge them with the technicality of the "side carry".