Al Horford vs Great player

[walker834]

just was watching highlights of David Robinson for some reason. Watch how Robinson plays off of guys who are bodying him and has a variety of moves and spins to the basket.  It's all about how he positions himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g7hwxEJ2zE

Horford is a very good player.  He is much more polished and plays within himself than some of these other knuckleheads in the nba but this is what Tommy means where he says if you body him up he can be stopped.  If you watch highlights of Horford big men today are kind of given free reign to the basket if you find them. They don't really develop their games past that.  We were able to stop Howard because of this with Perkins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEVBElQNmFs

I actually believe the celtics could win with 2 good big men because they are so rare in todays nba but having players that defend is valuable too.

The Celtics of old would eat players like Horford for lunch. No offense to Al Horford but they would. He's actually one of the better big men now too just because of his style and all around play.  But he's not on Robinson's level or Tim Duncan. He's not on Parish's level either.

Horford is probably one of the best all around big men and most polished in the nba now that Duncan is gone. I don't think that's overly good.

Cousins is really the top dog but does not play within himself and is not a great player himself right now.

[walker834]

No comments on my brilliant analysis here? One more point is watching that as the league has become more guard heavy and watching Horford have free lanes to the hoop wouldn't that be to our advantage if we got a couple big men who play the right way?  Who is going to guard them?

I've never been one to follow trends overly. 

I like the idea of having a big man and having guards that can play defense and physical and shoot it a bit too.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I'll jump in. I agree with everything you said. Horford is a starting power forward 20 years ago, but an Allstar center today. That shows the shift.

I think we could zig while everyone is zagging. Cousins and Horford could still open the court by shooting threes, but they could also punish around the rim. The problem is who guards who when teams go small? I think you could put Cousins on the big and Horford on the 3 and D wing while having Crowder guard scoring 4s (Durant, James).

The Spurs were already trying to do this last year because their players fit it. CBS had to take notice. 

[coffee425]

I'll jump in. I agree with everything you said. Horford is a starting power forward 20 years ago, but an Allstar center today. That shows the shift.

I think we could zig while everyone is zagging. Cousins and Horford could still open the court by shooting threes, but they could also punish around the rim. The problem is who guards who when teams go small? I think you could put Cousins on the big and Horford on the 3 and D wing while having Crowder guard scoring 4s (Durant, James).

The Spurs were already trying to do this last year because their players fit it. CBS had to take notice.

I've always been intrigued on how this would work...
Best case scenario, this would be the 2012-13 Memphis Grizzlies on steroids.
Worst case scenario, this would be the 2015-16 Memphis Grizzlies

Either way, it's in the East so it'll still result in an conference finals


As for the part i highlighted, I would still stay big and impose the slow halfcourt pace on any team that goes small. The reason that Warriors kill in that small lineup is because they rarely ever need to defend Bigs that can go 1on1 in the post, as well as pass off of each other.

[A Future of Stevens]

I think offensively it's more potent than the grizzlies. Defensively and rebounding it's similar, but the problem with that squad was a lack of shooting. Both horford and Cousins are great 3pt anD midrange shooters for their size. Both can put the ball on the floor (cousins more so than anyone his size) and both can defend the perimeter. They are similar to the grizzlies in the fact they are huge, but the grizzlies would be lucky to have the offensive versatility that cousins and horford would provide.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I'll jump in. I agree with everything you said. Horford is a starting power forward 20 years ago, but an Allstar center today. That shows the shift.

I think we could zig while everyone is zagging. Cousins and Horford could still open the court by shooting threes, but they could also punish around the rim. The problem is who guards who when teams go small? I think you could put Cousins on the big and Horford on the 3 and D wing while having Crowder guard scoring 4s (Durant, James).

The Spurs were already trying to do this last year because their players fit it. CBS had to take notice.

I've always been intrigued on how this would work...
Best case scenario, this would be the 2012-13 Memphis Grizzlies on steroids.
Worst case scenario, this would be the 2015-16 Memphis Grizzlies

Either way, it's in the East so it'll still result in an conference finals


As for the part i highlighted, I would still stay big and impose the slow halfcourt pace on any team that goes small. The reason that Warriors kill in that small lineup is because they rarely ever need to defend Bigs that can go 1on1 in the post, as well as pass off of each other.

Horford and Cousins are more mobile than Randolph and Gasol. Arguably more skilled and better at basketball too.

I actually wouldn't slow it down too much. Cousins and Horford are both used to uptempo offenses and it would probably give them better looks at a higher tempo. For large portions of the game you could go one big at a time and keep it uptempo also.

The thing that makes this dynamic is that you can play with pace and space while pounding inside. We don't sacrifice interior dominance to play uptempo. That's partially what Green brings to the Warriors. They can play uptempo, but Green's versatity allows them not to sacrifice rim protection, toughness, or rebounding too much.

[coffee425]

I'll jump in. I agree with everything you said. Horford is a starting power forward 20 years ago, but an Allstar center today. That shows the shift.

I think we could zig while everyone is zagging. Cousins and Horford could still open the court by shooting threes, but they could also punish around the rim. The problem is who guards who when teams go small? I think you could put Cousins on the big and Horford on the 3 and D wing while having Crowder guard scoring 4s (Durant, James).

The Spurs were already trying to do this last year because their players fit it. CBS had to take notice.

I've always been intrigued on how this would work...
Best case scenario, this would be the 2012-13 Memphis Grizzlies on steroids.
Worst case scenario, this would be the 2015-16 Memphis Grizzlies

Either way, it's in the East so it'll still result in an conference finals


As for the part i highlighted, I would still stay big and impose the slow halfcourt pace on any team that goes small. The reason that Warriors kill in that small lineup is because they rarely ever need to defend Bigs that can go 1on1 in the post, as well as pass off of each other.

Horford and Cousins are more mobile than Randolph and Gasol. Arguably more skilled and better at basketball too.

I actually wouldn't slow it down too much. Cousins and Horford are both used to uptempo offenses and it would probably give them better looks at a higher tempo. For large portions of the game you could go one big at a time and keep it uptempo also.

The thing that makes this dynamic is that you can play with pace and space while pounding inside. We don't sacrifice interior dominance to play uptempo. That's partially what Green brings to the Warriors. They can play uptempo, but Green's versatity allows them not to sacrifice rim protection, toughness, or rebounding too much.

I half-agree. They are def more athletic than ZBo and Marc.. But there's no amount of big athleticism that would want to keep up with the pace of a small lineup. Against 95% of the teams in the league, this is fine. But if we use the new Warriors as the benchmark, trying to keep up with the pace of switching screens and chasing KD/Klay around would just be disaster.

But if we slow it down to force KD and Draymond to guard a High/Low combo with 2 bigs that can shoot/post/pass, this is the best chance for easy buckets.

Would be nice to have floor spacers though ....

[Fafnir]

I think you are letting nostalgia lead you to some extremely poor analysis.

[Granath]

"Hortford is not on the level as 3 awesome Hall of Famers"

Thanks for letting us know that.

[walker834]

I don't know DA just said we need more shooting and a stronger center so apparently Ainge's analysis is poor too.

[walker834]

We aren't going to outscore a team like GS building like they have.  Getting a star wing would help combat that but we still need something that is going to offset some of their strength imo.  We aren't going to beat them at their own game.

OKC nearly beat them with their athletism but it wasn't enough.  I think it's going to take a combination of things.  Having guards that are physical can help.  Scoring and shooting can help.  But we need something to offset their strength and  use it against them.

The trend in the nba is to play with more speed which is fine and we should be able to do that too. But it's still basketball.  Big men can still play  a role if utilized properly.  The trends may have changed but the game of basketball hasn't overly.

[Fafnir]

I don't know DA just said we need more shooting and a stronger center so apparently Ainge's analysis is poor too.

You say Al Horford is worse than 3 legendary hall of famers then hand waive a lot about how much stronger and tougher old big men were.

Plenty of strong big men in the game now, Horford plays about as well against them as he does in general. He gets open lanes and cuts because he's quicker than those guys and moves smartly.

The idea that Ainge saying we need C depth and shooting confirms your analysis is optimistic in the extreme. Right now for big men we have Mickey, Amir, Horford, and Olynyk. None are really bruiser C's or have great size for a C.

[walker834]

I don't think we are stopping with Horford though.  I think he is a piece and a nice big  man to have but we need more there.

Horford is a very good player and in todays game he is one of the better big men, but he isn't a great big man like some of those classic guys.

He is going to need help.

[Fafnir]

Of course he needs help. Even the great Larry Bird and LeBron James needed help. Much like saying he's not as good as The Chief, The Admiral, and the Big Fundamental you aren't saying much of anything.

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug best to set it down, you miss a lot of great basketball while pining for "classics".

[walker834]

Actually you aren't saying much of anything because that's not what I said at all. You are the one talking about nostalgia which is pseudo intellectual nonsense and completely meaningless.  i'm talking about basketball.