Author Topic: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective  (Read 8796 times)

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Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2016, 01:06:08 AM »

Offline walker834

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If Marcus continues to shoot 38 percent then I'll be a bit worried. His talent level is very good. He ever starts shooting it better he's a stud.  He doesn't he's somewhat of a bust but a decent roleplayer like tony allen.  I hope players still work on improving their games.  Some do some don't. Some just stay bad offensive players.  Some players improve.

Marcus's upside is much greater than Rozier that way.  Both are good in different ways though.  Rozier is more a scorer right now. Marcus is a beast in other aspects. Both are good defenders.  Marcus is great.  Rozier is the better scorer right now.

We haven't seen Marcus yet this year though.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2016, 01:07:27 AM »

Offline Chris22

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I want to see Rozier and Smart play together.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2016, 01:16:00 AM »

Offline walker834

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Same here.  They seem to go together. Isaiah is similar to Rozier though.  Although I like Rozier on defense a bit better. isaiah is better offense.

Marcus we dont even know what he is ultimately going to be but he is an intriguing player.  He ever just improves his shooting he is a stud roleplayer and a great player that way. Very few players can do that and impact the game and actually be a star without putting up 30ppg. 

He also could be a legit pg and be like a 15 and 6 or 7 guy with great defense.  Or even better than that. 

So far he is close to 10, 4 and 4 and a couple steals with poor percentages playing off the ball primarily with a little bit of point mixed in. He has the ability to fill the stat sheet and affect the game in a variety of ways which I like.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2016, 01:23:23 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I made this declaration on draft day last year - Terry Rozier has more upside then Marcus Smart.  Not just a little bit more upside either - a LOT more upside.

Rozier is around 6'3" (not the 6'1" people often list him at).  He has a 1" shorter wingspan than Rajon Rondo.  He's got good physical strength. 

He measured a 38" vertical at the combine and some of the best athleticism measurements (lane agility, sprint, etc) in the draft that year.  Very good at changing diections and changing speeds with the ball.  Can stop on a dime, then explode to the basket.  A standout athlete, in the mold of Leandro Barbosa.

He is a good ball handler - not an elite one, but a good one. His ball handling combined with his explosive athleticism allows him to get to the rim extremely easily.

He has a an underrated midrange game - he's very good at driving hard towards the basket, stopping on a dime, and then pulling up for the midrange jumper.  That was one of the main weapons in his arsenal in college. 

He's an underrated outside shooter as well.  He only shot 30% from three in his last college year, which led to criticisms about his lack of a jumper.  However he shot 37% from three in his freshman year, he shot 41% overall from three in the 15-16 Summer League, he shot 34% from three in the D-League. and he shot 36% from three in 5 playoff games last season.  He isn't a standout shooter from three and I wouldn't even say he is a good one...but he is a decent one who seems to have the potential to become a good one.

He was known for being an outstanding defensive player in college - he uses his athleticism, strength and length very well.  Add in his very high motor, strong work ethic and tough attitude and he has pretty much all the bases covered to be a good NBA defender.

He's a standout rebounder for a guard.  Very impressive instincts going after boards, and is almost Rondo-esque in that regard.

He's not a natural facilitator and is not a standout passer or playmaker, but he is good enough to get the job done, in a league where pure playmakers are honestly pretty rare.

It's Rozier's physical attributes combined with his versatile skill set that gives him such a high upside in my eyes.  When you have a kid who has elite length and athleticism...who can hit the three, score from midrange and get to the basket at will...who can handle the ball, defend, and rebound at a high rate...and who has outstanding intangibles...it's hard not to see a lot of potential in a player like that. 

Rozier doesn't need to reinvent the wheel to become a great player - he has all the foundations in place, and really all he has to do is steadily improve a bit at a time in each area, and in 2-3 years he'll be a good starter or perhaps even a borderline star.

With Smart it's harder because he doesn't have the type of versatile all round skillset Rozier has.  His defense is standout, no question about that.  He's a very good rebounder for a guard.  His playmaking isn't a standout, honestly is probably about on the same level as Rozier.

But Smart's lack of scoring ability is a limitation.  He struggles to score at the basket, he doesn't have much (if any) of a midrange game, and we all know that he struggles immensely from three.  He's done a better job at getting to the line (and shooting better there) which is something...but he's still very limited as a scorer, which ultimately holds back his potential.

His lack of elite athleticism and his so-so ball handling ability also limit his potential somewhat, because with neither of the above it becomes difficult for him to get shots off on a consistent basis.

I don't think Smart has the core foundations in place to ever become an above average scorer...and when you are a PG/SG who isn't a standout passer or a competent scorer, that makes it hard to become much more then a good role player tbh.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2016, 01:43:40 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Crimson, I wonder how you view Jackson, then, as he's a better athlete, shooter, passer, and at least comparable on defense, to Rozier.  I'd also say that he's a better ball handler, namely because Rozier blatantly palms the ball almost every time he dribbles, lol ;D.

Jackson, to me, looks more like a true point guard, while Rozier is a combo guard who is learning to play point guard, and largely plays out of control, gets in the air before he knows what he's going to do, and seems oblivious to the other four guys on the court.  I also wouldn't say that he's Rondo-esque as far as rebounding.  If you're going that route, look no further than Gary Payton II.

I do agree with you, however, that Rozier has considerably more skill and talent, and, as a result, more upside, than Smart.  That, unfortunately, is painfully obvious, imo, lol ;D.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2016, 02:28:18 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Crimson, I wonder how you view Jackson, then, as he's a better athlete, shooter, passer, and at least comparable on defense, to Rozier.  I'd also say that he's a better ball handler, namely because Rozier blatantly palms the ball almost every time he dribbles, lol ;D.

Jackson, to me, looks more like a true point guard, while Rozier is a combo guard who is learning to play point guard, and largely plays out of control, gets in the air before he knows what he's going to do, and seems oblivious to the other four guys on the court.  I also wouldn't say that he's Rondo-esque as far as rebounding.  If you're going that route, look no further than Gary Payton II.

I do agree with you, however, that Rozier has considerably more skill and talent, and, as a result, more upside, than Smart.  That, unfortunately, is painfully obvious, imo, lol ;D.

I really like Jackson - I have been very high on him for about the last 6 months, while I've been researching on prospects.  Watching him play and the things he can do on the court, I've always felt he looked like a lottery caliber talent - I was honestly shocked as hell to see him fall as far as he did.

When it comes to an argument of Jackson vs Rozier, I think the reason why Rozier's odds are better is primarily his more versatile skill set. 

Rozier at the combined measured at 6'2", 190 pounds, with a 6'8" wingspan and 8'2" vertical reach.  While he doesn't have optimal height for the SG spot, his combination of strength and length largely make up for that.  Defensively he has the length to guard 2's and the quickness to guard 1's.

Offensively he can shoot, he can drive, he can dribble and he can pass - he's solid at all those things.  That means he can handle a "combo guard" type role, and can switch between the two guard spots without much trouble.

There is the rebounding, too.

Jackson is an even better athlete the Rozier I would say, and has great strength.  However his size is going to really restrict him to the PG spot.  At 6'1" / 190 pounds / 6'5" wingspan he just doesn't have the height or length to guard NBA 2's on anything close to a consistent basis.  He's also not as good a defender as Rozier in general - I think he could become a solid defender, but Rozier's got a lot more potential on that end.

So size pretty much limits Jackson to be a pure PG, which is fine because that's who he is. He's a pretty good passer, a natural playmaker, a very good ball handler.  Explosive quickness.  He can shoot the ball too. Reminds me a bit of a young Chris Paul.

Personaly, I think Rozier and Jackson have similar upside.  I think both have the talent level to be borderline All-Stars one day. If either of those two guys one day made an all-star team, I wouldn't be shocked at all.  I can't say the same for Smart, to be honest.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2016, 02:42:18 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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You don't have to love Smart, if the shooting numbers bother you...but anyone who calls
him a bust doesn't understand basketball.

He's a top 6 pick who has no offensive game at this point in his career.  Call it bust, call it needing development, or call it anything else you want.  In the end, it's all the same thing.

Would you call Marcus Camby a bust?

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2016, 02:53:49 AM »

Offline max215

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I like Rozier a lot. I'm sold on him as a rotation player this year, which is awesome from the 16th pick in year two. However, it might be best to revisit this conversation next year, after Rozier has gotten some actual playing time.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

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Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2016, 03:02:59 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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You don't have to love Smart, if the shooting numbers bother you...but anyone who calls
him a bust doesn't understand basketball.

He's a top 6 pick who has no offensive game at this point in his career.  Call it bust, call it needing development, or call it anything else you want.  In the end, it's all the same thing.

Would you call Marcus Camby a bust?

Marcus Camby ended his career with Per-36 averages of 11.6 points, 11.9 rebounds, 1.,2 steals, 2.9 blocks,

As a rookie he averaged 15 points, 6 rebounds, 1 steal and blocks in 30 minutes.

Sorry, but Smart is not close to Camby's defensive level, and he doesn't give you 10 rebounds a game.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2016, 03:07:52 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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You don't have to love Smart, if the shooting numbers bother you...but anyone who calls
him a bust doesn't understand basketball.

He's a top 6 pick who has no offensive game at this point in his career.  Call it bust, call it needing development, or call it anything else you want.  In the end, it's all the same thing.

Would you call Marcus Camby a bust?

Marcus Camby ended his career with Per-36 averages of 11.6 points, 11.9 rebounds, 1.,2 steals, 2.9 blocks,

As a rookie he averaged 15 points, 6 rebounds, 1 steal and blocks in 30 minutes.

Sorry, but Smart is not close to Camby's defensive level, and he doesn't give you 10 rebounds a game.

Yesterday's centers are today's point guards. Majority of superstars today are PGs/SGs and Smart is shutting them down on a consistent basis. He may not be a shooter but he's a decent playmaker and a very good rebounder in his position.

If Bruce Bowen's draft class was redone, he'd certainly be at top 10 pick.

So far, no players past Smart in his draft class stood out.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 04:37:55 AM by mr. dee »

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2016, 04:55:43 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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You don't have to love Smart, if the shooting numbers bother you...but anyone who calls
him a bust doesn't understand basketball.

He's a top 6 pick who has no offensive game at this point in his career.  Call it bust, call it needing development, or call it anything else you want.  In the end, it's all the same thing.

Would you call Marcus Camby a bust?

Marcus Camby ended his career with Per-36 averages of 11.6 points, 11.9 rebounds, 1.,2 steals, 2.9 blocks,

As a rookie he averaged 15 points, 6 rebounds, 1 steal and blocks in 30 minutes.

Sorry, but Smart is not close to Camby's defensive level, and he doesn't give you 10 rebounds a game.

Yesterday's centers are today's point guards. Majority of superstars today are PGs/SGs and Smart is shutting them down on a consistent basis. He may not be a shooter but he's a decent playmaker and a very good rebounder in his position.

The thing is that Camby could impact the game at an elite level in two categories - defense and rebounding.

The only thing Smart can do at a high level is defend - at least at this point. 

If he could defend the way he does while also generating 7-8 assists a night, then his lack of scoring wouldn't be as concerning (see: Rondo).  If he could defend as he does and average 7 or 8 rebounds a game, then maybe people would forgive it.  If he could defend as he does while also scoring 12-14 PPG, then maybe people would cut him some slack.

But Smart is giving you something like 10 points, 4.5 rebounds and 3.5 assists  in around 30 minutes of playing time, and he's doing that while shooting 35% from the field and 25% from three.

I'm sorry, but Smart has a LONG way to go before I could even realistically declare him a legit starting caliber guard.  He is a clear backup combo guard at this point..with the potential to one day become a solid starting caliber role player.

Most guys here consider Avery Bradley a role player who isn't worth of starting, and yet Smart has not once challenged Bradley for his starting spot.  Even when Bradley got hurt and played limited minutes off the bench...it only lasted for a handful of games before he was thrust right back in the starting 5 again.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2016, 04:59:30 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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You don't have to love Smart, if the shooting numbers bother you...but anyone who calls
him a bust doesn't understand basketball.

He's a top 6 pick who has no offensive game at this point in his career.  Call it bust, call it needing development, or call it anything else you want.  In the end, it's all the same thing.

Would you call Marcus Camby a bust?

Marcus Camby ended his career with Per-36 averages of 11.6 points, 11.9 rebounds, 1.,2 steals, 2.9 blocks,

As a rookie he averaged 15 points, 6 rebounds, 1 steal and blocks in 30 minutes.

Sorry, but Smart is not close to Camby's defensive level, and he doesn't give you 10 rebounds a game.

Yesterday's centers are today's point guards. Majority of superstars today are PGs/SGs and Smart is shutting them down on a consistent basis. He may not be a shooter but he's a decent playmaker and a very good rebounder in his position.

If Bruce Bowen's draft class was redone, he'd certainly be at top 10 pick.

So far, no players past Smart in his draft class stood out.

While it's true that the 2014/15 draft was hot garbage, you really can't clearly define Smart as being a top 6 player in that draft right now. 

Is he CLEARLY better then Elfrid Payton?  Is he CLEARLY better then Aaron Gordon?  Julius Randle? Jabari Parker?  Zach Lavine?

You can certainly make an argument that he's been better then those guys, but there is no way you could argue that he is CLEARLY better then any of those guys - he's not on another level, or anything like that.

This isn't even factoring in Dante Exum and Joel Embiid, who have yet to get a real opportunity to show what they can do.

Smart was a good pick at #6 in that draft, no question about it.  I don't hold anything against Danny for that pick.  In fact I had Smart as my #1 choice at #6 myself.  That's more a reflection of how bad that draft is, rather then a reflection of how good Smart is. 

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2016, 07:15:22 AM »

Online Celtics4ever

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I like what we have seen of Rozier in summer league.   I feel uncomfortable really comparing them until we see if he can duplicate those performances in the regular NBA.   He can shoot Marcus can't.   I think Marcus is the better defender.   

It is looking more and more like Smart may be Tony Allen 2.0, I hope his shot improves too.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2016, 07:25:20 AM »

Offline clover

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Terrible article

Smart's 33.5% from 3 as a rookie certainly wasn't "atrocious"!

I agree, it's a poor article. And TRoz and Smart are both destined for different positions. If I had to pick just one, I'd go with TRoz in a heartbeat. But Smart is still very young and neither is likely near reaching his full potential at this point.

Re: 'Rozier vs. Smart' Debate - An Interesting perspective
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2016, 07:33:43 AM »

Offline Chief

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Smart and Rozier both seem to have the clutch gene. You can't teach that either. I'd prefer to keep them both but if I had to, it would be Rozier. Marcus is too special on defense.

And I agree that Turner probably stunted Marcus's growth a bit on offense.   
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