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To those criticizing Ainge
« on: June 25, 2016, 02:57:22 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Personally I think it's ridiculous to criticize him.  He's arguably the best GM in the business.  He's the only guy I've successfully seen come in, say he wants to build a champion in 3-5 years, and win a championship in year 4.  We're in the midst of one of the greatest trade heists in NBA history.  We got rid of KG and Pierce, both of which were cooked, and received (so far) an all-star in Isaiah Thomas, a #3 pick who might have star potential (Jaylen Brown) + some addition pieces (Zeller, James Young) and two more 1st rounders that have a chance to be incredible.   

So what are you criticizing about his draft performance?  Which of the following 3 scenarios do you subscribe to?

#1 - Ainge's assets weren't enough to land a star on draft night. - Ok.  Then what are you whining about?  Nobody could possibly criticize Ainge's ability to acquire assets.  He's consistently gotten value out of nothing.  He got value out of Jordon Crawford, for instance.  He's got a bounty of 1st rounders, highly drafted young talent, and some pretty solid young starters (Avery Bradley, for instance, was just named 1st team All-Defense and Jae Crowder is considered a prototypical player for the new NBA).   If it wasn't enough to land a star, why would you possibly blame Ainge?  He's turned water into grape juice.  If it's not wine yet, just give it time.

#2 - Ainge refused to pay the huge price for a star
- The rumor is that Ainge could had Jimmy Butler for the ridiculous price of the #3 pick, #16 pick, #23 pick, Marcus Smart, Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder.   Are you upset he didn't do it?  Let's talk more about it below.

#3 - Ainge didn't pounce on upgrades - Maybe you're upset he didn't give up assets to grab someone like Thad Young (which would have killed our cap space).  The perception there is that Ainge had an opportunity to make an upgrade and didn't do it... so he failed.   Let's talk about it more below.

Prior to the lotto drawing, I wrote something for CLNS Radio where I questioned the strategy of going all-in on a guy like Jimmy Butler before having a meeting with Kevin Durant.  I let myself dream of a crazy scenario where Boston ended up with a "Big 5" instead of a "Big 3".

My overall point was, unless Boston is circumventing rules by having secret conversations with Durant's people already (doubtful), it makes a lot more sense for them to first meet with Durant before pulling the trigger on anything significant. 

Have an honest conversation with Durant.  Explain to him what we're doing here in Boston.  Explain to him that this is a back-to-back playoff team that won nearly 50 games last season without a superstar.   Show him data that explains how our existing back court defense has the potential to be transcendent.  We were the team, for instance, that gave the Warriors the biggest challenge in the regular season and it's thanks to our incredible guard defense.   The thing we lacked was scoring - but that's obviously an area he'd make an impact on.  Over the past two seasons the Thunder had a below .500 record without Durant.  Imagine the impact he'd have on a borderline 50 win team. 

Show him data that explains the impact he has on players like Russell Westbrook (his efficiency dropped substantially in games Durant didn't play - he shot an inefficient .426% and less than 30% from three).   And give him projections of how his presence would impact a player like Avery Bradley (who averaged 15 points on impressive 45%/36%/78% shooting WITHOUT a Superstar drawing attention), Jae Crowder (44%/34%/82% WITHOUT a Superstar drawing attention) and all-star Isaiah Thomas (43%/36%/87% WITHOUT a Superstar drawing attention).   

Briefly explain the reasoning behind drafting Jaylen Brown (tremendous athlete, potential to be an outstanding defender, vastly improved shooting, great work ethic, has the size to potentially play 3 positions in the new NBA, should excel in our high-pace system, beat Jimmy Butler 1-on-1).  While 19 year old Brown could be a trade chip, there's a lesson to be learned by how Cleveland handled Wiggins. 

Also, explain how filling our greatest void (superstar scoring) should vault this team immediately into the championship race.   Durant would fit beautifully into this system already.  We have more than capable players to surround him with.  The idea that we need another ball-dominating scorer for him to play with is asinine. 

And once you get all of that out of the way, lay down the multitude of options this team has heading forward:

#1 - First and foremost, the fact that by not making any panic moves on draft day, and by using our later 1sts on potential draft-and-stash prospects, we have maintained double-max cap space.  Durant can let us know which player he wants to play with - be it Al Horford, Dwight Howard, Hassan Whiteside, DeMar Derozan, a combo of Pau Gasol and Luol Deng, etc and we'll be more than happy to offer that guy (or guys) a contract.   Does he want to play with Mike Conley?  Fine, we'll make it work.   Give him the vision of our team, give him our recommendation for adding to that vision, and if he wants us to tweak that - well, ball is in your court, KD.  Also point out that next offseason, with the cap rising another 20 mil, we'll be in position to add ANOTHER max contract player.  Want to bring in your buddy Russell Westbrook?  Sure.   Want to bring in Steph Curry after his disappointing season in Golden State next year watching Kevin Durant and the Boston Celtics win a championship?  Sure... let's bring him in.

#2 - Second, present all the trade options we likely still have.  It's not like our assets disappeared after draft night.  Teams more than likely still have interest in Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, our future Brooklyn picks.  Teams undoubtedly still have interest in Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder.   I'm fairly positive Boston has options still on the table.   Does KD want us to grab Nerlens Noel?  I'm sure we can make that happen still.   Does KD want us to move one of our core pieces for Kevin Love?  We'll go for it.   Does KD want us to sell the entire farm for Jimmy Butler?  I wouldn't recommend it, but we'll see what we can do, KD.   By maintaining all our assets and all our flexibility, we can loop in Durant as we shape this roster.  We also have a bounty of future picks and a proven front office.  As the years go by, we will not get stuck in a stagnant position.  We'll have plenty of ammo to make tweaks with to keep this team on top.

Bottom line is that it's way too soon to criticize Ainge.  I never understood the mindset behind overpaying for a borderline all-star.   Fact is, this team might be better off without making that trade.   Slotting in Durant as-is with a signing like Al Horford arguably makes this team better than the Thunder last year.   And we'd have a deep farm system of young talent that could trickle into the roster and make impacts down the road - much like the Spurs have done for years.   And by waiting a week, we have an opportunity to shape this roster to exactly what Durant desires.   We can show that we value his opinion.  We can build this champion together.

Last point:   After all of that, it's still extremely unlikely we sign Durant.  We can dream, but it's probably not happening.  I have been saying for months that we have a legitimate shot.  I would have been shocked if we weren't one of the teams he was meeting with on day 1, but it's still probably not happening.   So on that note, why in the crap would we make mild upgrades like Thad Young, or dump half the roster for an overrated Jimmy Butler - when there's no guarantee at all any of that would lead to KD?  If KD doesn't come here, adding a Thad young or Jimmy Butler probably isn't moving the needle for us (especially if we're giving up half our team for a guy like Butler who shot 31% from three on a lotto team last season).   If we strike out on Durant, it's going to be a really good thing that we held onto our chips so that we can maximize our post-Durant options.   Do we want to just build through youth and keep the team as-is?  Do we want to take a swing at a B-level talent like Middleton to fill the Durant void?   Who are the 2nd tier free agents that will come here?   If it's someone like Mike Conley, do we grab him and then find a home for Thomas?   

Ainge played it smart.   Waiting was the best option.   This is the logical approach.   If you want to criticize him for lack of action, wait until after free agency at least. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 03:42:41 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2016, 03:27:23 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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TP to the OP.

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2016, 03:35:45 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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I really enjoyed reading this.

TP
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2016, 03:45:14 PM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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Yes,he's made some great trading decisions. That doesn't preclude him from being criticized for his draft selections.

Many of us don't agree with Danny's drafting because he's often a contrarian and his decisions don't always work out. We are not stupid just because we haven't analyzed tons of tapes and done interviews, etc. Sometimes common sense outweighs other factors. For example he was warned over and over about Melo, yet he still drafted him.

Looking at the draft, Brown appears to be a great pick from a physical point of view. However, his stats and what a lot of people have been saying is that he isn't much of a basketball player. And, they have watched him on a regular basis. We'll have to wait and see.

Yabusele looks great on offense. On defense he often looks like a matador. Plus, his weight reminds many of us Big Baby and Sully. They say he is strong. Yet, videos show him getting pushed out of rebounding position with ease. I'm not saying he'll be a bad pick. I'm just saying Danny is open to criticism for his choices. 

As for the Durant chase I don't take much stock in it. He's staying OKC or on the west coast. 


Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2016, 04:01:42 PM »

Offline libermaniac

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Fantastic post.  TP.

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2016, 04:17:03 PM »

Offline Eja117

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yes yes yes. There was just nothing he could do. Other GMs were pulling off great trades, but the fates aligned against him and there was nothing he could have possibly done. We understand.

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2016, 04:20:38 PM »

Offline Scintan

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This was a completely unnecessary thread.
Ainge has made plenty of mistakes. 
Ainge didn't play it smart this time around: not even close.
Nobody's above criticism. 
Boston's been failing to do what they've claimed they were going to do for years now, and Ainge is the leader.  He deserves the heat. 


But, do let us all know when we finally get those fireworks.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2016, 04:24:25 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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yes yes yes. There was just nothing he could do. Other GMs were pulling off great trades, but the fates aligned against him and there was nothing he could have possibly done. We understand.
The only trade I'd consider "great" was the Suns trading up to get #8.

But I wouldn't discount the possibility that Ainge just wanted to take draft-and-stashes with his picks to maximize our ability to have roster spots and double-max cap space. 

The other "great" trades like moving #20 for Thad Young were not great.  Thad makes 11 million dollars.  That would kill our ability to have double-max cap space.  Awful trade if we had done that.

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2016, 04:25:12 PM »

Offline passesofftodj

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I didn't expect any "fireworks ", and I am happy with the Zizic, Bentil and Jackson selections, but I do not like the first two choices.  I am warming up to Brown as another defender if we can get a KD, but assuming no big FA I think we need to start finding alpha stars on offense.  Right now there isn't one, and the 2nd closest we have to one may be gone (Turner).

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2016, 04:25:23 PM »

Online BitterJim

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yes yes yes. There was just nothing he could do. Other GMs were pulling off great trades, but the fates aligned against him and there was nothing he could have possibly done. We understand.

Did I miss something?  I don't remember any great trades being made
I'm bitter.

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2016, 04:26:41 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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This was a completely unnecessary thread.
Ainge has made plenty of mistakes. 
Ainge didn't play it smart this time around: not even close.
Nobody's above criticism. 
Boston's been failing to do what they've claimed they were going to do for years now, and Ainge is the leader.  He deserves the heat. 


But, do let us all know when we finally get those fireworks.
I completely disagree.  There was no reason to make any significant moves before meeting with Durant.  If we strike out on signing two max contracts, you can bellyache about it.  But until then, bringing in large contracts (effectively killing our double max cap space) would be a foolish decision.

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2016, 04:29:48 PM »

Online BitterJim

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This was a completely unnecessary thread.
Ainge has made plenty of mistakes. 
Ainge didn't play it smart this time around: not even close.
Nobody's above criticism. 
Boston's been failing to do what they've claimed they were going to do for years now, and Ainge is the leader.  He deserves the heat. 


But, do let us all know when we finally get those fireworks.

Translation:  "Ainge didn't play make the moves I would have made, therefore they were dumb moves"

Ainge knows more about basketball and the prospects in the draft than anyone here, and any of the media analysts (if they knew what they were doing better than GMs, they would have a job with a front office).  Calling a move stupid just because you wouldn't have made it is asinine
I'm bitter.

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2016, 04:30:25 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I didn't expect any "fireworks ", and I am happy with the Zizic, Bentil and Jackson selections, but I do not like the first two choices.  I am warming up to Brown as another defender if we can get a KD, but assuming no big FA I think we need to start finding alpha stars on offense.  Right now there isn't one, and the 2nd closest we have to one may be gone (Turner).
I look at it like this:

Plan A:  Do everything possible to get Durant. -  So far, I think we're doing everything right on that front.  We still have all of our flexibility, still have double-max cap space (the only team Durant is meeting with that has that ability), and still plenty of options on the trade front.   This team as-is is a plenty appealing supporting cast for KD.  With his addition alone, it would win about 60 games.  Adding another max player + making some trades will absolutely make us a championship contender.

Plan B:  A life without Durant -
At that point, who cares?  Trading #3 + #16 + Bradley + Crowder + Smart for a borderline star like Jimmy Butler isn't going to win you a championship.  That would be a really stupid move.  The best approach might be to just wait a few years to hope our guys develop into the next generation, because you aren't chasing the Golden States and Clevelands of the world by trading half the roster for a borderline allstar.   This front office/management is too smart to act like the Knicks.  If we can't land a transcendent player like Durant, patience is the only logical move.

 

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2016, 04:32:12 PM »

Offline Eja117

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yes yes yes. There was just nothing he could do. Other GMs were pulling off great trades, but the fates aligned against him and there was nothing he could have possibly done. We understand.

Did I miss something?  I don't remember any great trades being made
go back and look then

Re: To those criticizing Ainge
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2016, 04:35:55 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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yes yes yes. There was just nothing he could do. Other GMs were pulling off great trades, but the fates aligned against him and there was nothing he could have possibly done. We understand.

What other great trades did other GMs pull off this past thursday? Because I didn't see any. I just saw a handful of mediocre, low impact trades. None for players that I would have been happy to give up our double max FA ability for.

The only team that came out of draft night with a great trade was OKC, by getting Orlando to overpay for an Ibaka rental. We couldn't have made that deal because we have no vet player of Ibaka's level that we want to move, and no room for more rookies that OKC received.