Author Topic: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick  (Read 13695 times)

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Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2016, 11:41:54 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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If Sixers want Dunn at #3 you get a proven player.

IF Noel and Okafor were in this years draft you have to believe both go #1 and 2.
no. this is false.

That's ridiculous. No they wouldn't, especially if you had NBA tape on them.

If you could include their NBA tape, Okafor and Noel probably go in the top 10, but neither has the potential of Simmons, Ingram, or even Dunn/Brown/Bender without any tape on them. All those guys have flaws, but not flaws that seem I fixable at the NBA level yet.

If your judging them by how they looked coming into the league, Okafor probably goes by #5 and Noel by 7, but that's not the way it is. We have game tape on them against NBA players.

Okafor can't defend anyone who's skilled past 18 feet, and Noel is very limited on offense. Noel is close to a pay raise, and Okafor is a very flawed prospect that hasn't shown much improvement in his weaknesses through his 1st season (though that could still change)

It's going to take more than Okafor or Noel to get Ainge to give them #3. Covington AT LEAST, if not Saric and/or Kings, Lakers pick.

Al Jefferson isn't worth the 3rd pick in any draft, and Tyson Chandler with a year left on his deal isn't either.

Question - why not pass on both of the Philly big guys and get Poeltl, instead?  Like Okafor, he is very adept at scoring with his back to the basket, he's at least an excellent passer, he's quite agile and has great speed to run the court like Noel, and his quickness, in addition to his shot blocking and rebounding ability, make him at least a very good defender as of right now.  You also don't have to worry about any off the court incidents with him, and no injury history.  I was just thinking of a way to get the best of both worlds without having to give up #3 :-\. What do you think, BDeCosta26?

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2016, 12:02:31 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I've heard Dunn called a better version of Marcus Smart.

If that's our pick, do you expect us to try really hard to trade Smart + #16 + #23 for a position of need?  Like Nerlens Noel or something?

It doesn't make sense to split 96 minutes between Thomas, Bradley, Smart, Dunn, Rozier, Turner, Hunter and Young. 

How would our PG/SG minute distribution look?

36 mins for Thomas
33 mins for Bradley

Then we split the remaining 27 minutes for Dunn and Smart? 

13.5 mins for Dunn
13.5 mins for Smart
0 mins for Rozier
0 mins for Hunter
...etc

Or do you envision some of these guys playing SF minutes in a micro-ball lineup?

Not to mention we have 7 draft picks we have no roster spots/minutes for.

Lar i think Smart and Dunn are different players. I envision them playing together in the next few years when IT is traded. For now a backcourt of Smart-Bradley-Dunn-Thomas seems doable, although if one of them is traded it is fine as well. Try to trade up and get Poetl or just draft Sabonis, a couple of stash and just cash in on the FA next year. Maybe we can sign someone to a deal similar to Amir, drop Zeller and Sullinger and were good to go. Not a contender but will be better than we are last year with the flexibility to make moves next year.

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2016, 12:11:25 AM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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If Sixers want Dunn at #3 you get a proven player.

IF Noel and Okafor were in this years draft you have to believe both go #1 and 2.
no. this is false.

That's ridiculous. No they wouldn't, especially if you had NBA tape on them.

If you could include their NBA tape, Okafor and Noel probably go in the top 10, but neither has the potential of Simmons, Ingram, or even Dunn/Brown/Bender without any tape on them. All those guys have flaws, but not flaws that seem I fixable at the NBA level yet.

If your judging them by how they looked coming into the league, Okafor probably goes by #5 and Noel by 7, but that's not the way it is. We have game tape on them against NBA players.

Okafor can't defend anyone who's skilled past 18 feet, and Noel is very limited on offense. Noel is close to a pay raise, and Okafor is a very flawed prospect that hasn't shown much improvement in his weaknesses through his 1st season (though that could still change)

It's going to take more than Okafor or Noel to get Ainge to give them #3. Covington AT LEAST, if not Saric and/or Kings, Lakers pick.

Al Jefferson isn't worth the 3rd pick in any draft, and Tyson Chandler with a year left on his deal isn't either.

Question - why not pass on both of the Philly big guys and get Poeltl, instead?  Like Okafor, he is very adept at scoring with his back to the basket, he's at least an excellent passer, he's quite agile and has great speed to run the court like Noel, and his quickness, in addition to his shot blocking and rebounding ability, make him at least a very good defender as of right now.  You also don't have to worry about any off the court incidents with him, and no injury history.  I was just thinking of a way to get the best of both worlds without having to give up #3 :-\. What do you think, BDeCosta26?

Hey buddy. I like Poeltl, but he's not a guy you use the #3 pick on. Maybe if we trade back, or trade up from 16, but at #3 you HAVE to look for a guy with higher upside than that.

To me, Poeltl is a guy who has a strong post game, and is at least an average defender. I wouldn't call him an excellent passer yet, just as Okafor isn't. And I certainly wouldn't say he has the ability to run the floor like Noel, or defend the perimeter AND the rim the way Noel can.

Mostly though, I'm against the idea of an offensive oriented center who has limited defensive abilities with this group. If were running with some combo of Thomas/Bradley/Crowder/Smart, having a C who requires the ball in his hands to be effective without making a significant impact defensively just doesn't fit. The rim-running, defensive oriented big who has a floor spacing 4 next to him (See:Olynyk, Kevin Love), seems to be a much better fit for a CBS run team than a guy like Poeltl or Okafor.

I'll give you this though BLA. By next summer, Ainge is going to have to make a choice. Either we build around IT and Co, looking for near-future success, or we build around Smart, Rozier, #3, #16 And these future Brooklyn picks that are straight gold.

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2016, 12:12:10 AM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Maybe Dunn is a better version of Smart, I don't know, but it does concern me that he's a senior.  He and Smart were the same year in college and as freshmen Dunn averaged 5.7 ppg while Smart was considered one of the best players in the country.  As a sophomore, Dunn averaged just 3.8 ppg before injuring his shoulder after just 4 games.  Dunn played really well his junior and senior seasons, but he wasn't exactly dominant.  How would Smart have looked if played college this past season?  I've also seen Dunn compared to John Wall, but Wall played just one year of college.  I would imagine that Wall would have toyed with college competition if he stayed through his senior season.

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2016, 12:24:41 AM »

Offline passesofftodj

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This isn't that hard.  You take either Dunn or Bender.  The glut of guards doesn't mean much unless you are foolishly attached to the current roster. 

By year two Dunn will be the best player on the team.  Bender?  No one knows but the organization knows a heckuva' lot more about him than any of us.

Brown will be a bust and the kind of mistake that sets the team back years.

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2016, 12:39:13 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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If Sixers want Dunn at #3 you get a proven player.

IF Noel and Okafor were in this years draft you have to believe both go #1 and 2.
no. this is false.

That's ridiculous. No they wouldn't, especially if you had NBA tape on them.

If you could include their NBA tape, Okafor and Noel probably go in the top 10, but neither has the potential of Simmons, Ingram, or even Dunn/Brown/Bender without any tape on them. All those guys have flaws, but not flaws that seem I fixable at the NBA level yet.

If your judging them by how they looked coming into the league, Okafor probably goes by #5 and Noel by 7, but that's not the way it is. We have game tape on them against NBA players.

Okafor can't defend anyone who's skilled past 18 feet, and Noel is very limited on offense. Noel is close to a pay raise, and Okafor is a very flawed prospect that hasn't shown much improvement in his weaknesses through his 1st season (though that could still change)

It's going to take more than Okafor or Noel to get Ainge to give them #3. Covington AT LEAST, if not Saric and/or Kings, Lakers pick.

Al Jefferson isn't worth the 3rd pick in any draft, and Tyson Chandler with a year left on his deal isn't either.

Question - why not pass on both of the Philly big guys and get Poeltl, instead?  Like Okafor, he is very adept at scoring with his back to the basket, he's at least an excellent passer, he's quite agile and has great speed to run the court like Noel, and his quickness, in addition to his shot blocking and rebounding ability, make him at least a very good defender as of right now.  You also don't have to worry about any off the court incidents with him, and no injury history.  I was just thinking of a way to get the best of both worlds without having to give up #3 :-\. What do you think, BDeCosta26?

Hey buddy. I like Poeltl, but he's not a guy you use the #3 pick on. Maybe if we trade back, or trade up from 16, but at #3 you HAVE to look for a guy with higher upside than that.

To me, Poeltl is a guy who has a strong post game, and is at least an average defender. I wouldn't call him an excellent passer yet, just as Okafor isn't. And I certainly wouldn't say he has the ability to run the floor like Noel, or defend the perimeter AND the rim the way Noel can.

Mostly though, I'm against the idea of an offensive oriented center who has limited defensive abilities with this group. If were running with some combo of Thomas/Bradley/Crowder/Smart, having a C who requires the ball in his hands to be effective without making a significant impact defensively just doesn't fit. The rim-running, defensive oriented big who has a floor spacing 4 next to him (See:Olynyk, Kevin Love), seems to be a much better fit for a CBS run team than a guy like Poeltl or Okafor.

I'll give you this though BLA. By next summer, Ainge is going to have to make a choice. Either we build around IT and Co, looking for near-future success, or we build around Smart, Rozier, #3, #16 And these future Brooklyn picks that are straight gold.

My fault.  I wasn't advocating using #3 on him.  No, I would take Dunn at 3 and trade IT and KO for 6 to get Poeltl.  I do think that he's a much better passer than Okafor, even though that's not saying much, lol, but I also understand that he isn't the defensive player that Noel is, although he is a good one, imo.  I guess that I was just looking for the happy medium, and guys with his skill at his size don't grow on trees. 

Additionally, his speed would make for many more fast breaks that don't end in a 3 (don't get me started on that.  Ugh.), and at the end of the game at least we'd be able to get the ball to a guy who can score from the post as opposed to relying on jumpers.  Again - ugh.  Just an idea :)

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2016, 02:45:52 AM »

Offline biggs

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I won't doubt Woj but it's hard to see Ainge taking and keeping Dunn.  He'd have the same problem as Philly with a bunch of guys all needing to play the same position.  IT, Marcus and Dunn all have to play the point to reach their maximum potential and Avery and Jae are already undersized at the 2 and 3.

Mike

Don't forget Rozier Mike.  ;D

If we draft Dunn, I think we keep him and trade Smart, preferably getting a Sf-C in return.
Truuuuuuuuuth!

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2016, 03:45:23 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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I won't doubt Woj but it's hard to see Ainge taking and keeping Dunn.  He'd have the same problem as Philly with a bunch of guys all needing to play the same position.  IT, Marcus and Dunn all have to play the point to reach their maximum potential and Avery and Jae are already undersized at the 2 and 3.

Mike

Don't forget Rozier Mike.  ;D

If we draft Dunn, I think we keep him and trade Smart, preferably getting a Sf-C in return.

I'm not sure. I think the fringe guys go first, people like Hunter, Young and Rozier. Turner won't get re-signed. Then next summer when we have to seriously decide on the direction of the team you look at the trade value of Dunn/Smart against IT and decide whether to look to the future or have our "fireworks"

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2016, 05:22:59 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Maybe Dunn is a better version of Smart, I don't know, but it does concern me that he's a senior.  He and Smart were the same year in college and as freshmen Dunn averaged 5.7 ppg while Smart was considered one of the best players in the country.  As a sophomore, Dunn averaged just 3.8 ppg before injuring his shoulder after just 4 games.  Dunn played really well his junior and senior seasons, but he wasn't exactly dominant.  How would Smart have looked if played college this past season?  I've also seen Dunn compared to John Wall, but Wall played just one year of college.  I would imagine that Wall would have toyed with college competition if he stayed through his senior season.

I think the issue is the way people look at draft picks.

People are obsessed with looking at numbers, rather than skills.  Every discussion has to involve age, or height, or length, or weight, or PPG, or 3PT%, etc.

Of course these 'numbers' are all important considerations, but they are not the ONLY things you need to look at because the College game and NBA game are not the same.  The competition is not the same.

Guys who have superior size/strength/athleticism but lack skills tend to be stars at the college game, and role players at the NBA level.  That's why there is a risk with guys like Smart, Randle, Okafor and Brown - those guys dominated the college game because they were so much bigger/stronger then everybody else that they just got by on bully-ball.  Then when they have gotten to the NBA they've realised that tactic doesn't work anymore..and unless they have a special set of skills they can utilise, they struggle to translate that dominance in the NBA.

On the other hand guys who have well a superior size/strength/athleticism AND also have a high skill level - those guys tend to do very well at the NBA level.

Smart falls into the former category.  His biggest selling point was always his physical tools - the size, the strength, the physicality.  His wasn't entirely without skills, but 'skill level' was never listed as a strength on a Marcus Smart scouting report.  At least not on the offensive end - nobody ever gushed over Smart's shooting, his ball handling, his passing.

Dunn is different because he's a guy who has the physical tools (size, strength, athleticism) to excel at the college level, but he also has the skill level to make the most of those physical tools at the NBA level.

This is why Dunn is so much more promising as an NBA prospect then Smart was, even though Smart was probably just as good in college.

It's also why Karl Anthony Towns has become so much better an NBA player then Jahlil Okafor has, even though Okafor was just as dominant at the college level.  When those guys moved to the NBA and suddenly their physical advantages over their opponents became less pronounced, they found themselves having to rely on their skill for an advantage.  Towns was able to utilise a number of skills to get the upper hand, while the only special skill Okafor was able to leverage was his post game - which is why he translated to such a one dimensional player in the NBA.

This is why I am adamant that Ben Simmons is going to be a very good NBA player.  Because he doesn't only have the physical advantages (the strength, the athleticism, the size), - he has a phenomenal set of basketball skills / talents that he can leverage to give him an advantage against any number of matchups.

Then you have guys like Valentine who have the opposite problem - the "Olynyk Syndrome".  These guys have very impressive skill sets, but a lack physical tools.  Those guys find themselves at a physical disadvantage on many nights, so they need to rely on their outstanding set of skills just to ensure they can earn a role in the league. Valentine should be a very nice an servicable player at the NBA level and will probably be the type of guy who increases team wins everywhere he goes (like Shane Battier) - but it's unlike he'll ever so much as sniff stardom.

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2016, 07:11:48 AM »

Offline alldaboston

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Maybe Dunn is a better version of Smart, I don't know, but it does concern me that he's a senior.  He and Smart were the same year in college and as freshmen Dunn averaged 5.7 ppg while Smart was considered one of the best players in the country.  As a sophomore, Dunn averaged just 3.8 ppg before injuring his shoulder after just 4 games.  Dunn played really well his junior and senior seasons, but he wasn't exactly dominant.  How would Smart have looked if played college this past season?  I've also seen Dunn compared to John Wall, but Wall played just one year of college.  I would imagine that Wall would have toyed with college competition if he stayed through his senior season.

I think the issue is the way people look at draft picks.

People are obsessed with looking at numbers, rather than skills.  Every discussion has to involve age, or height, or length, or weight, or PPG, or 3PT%, etc.

Of course these 'numbers' are all important considerations, but they are not the ONLY things you need to look at because the College game and NBA game are not the same.  The competition is not the same.

Guys who have superior size/strength/athleticism but lack skills tend to be stars at the college game, and role players at the NBA level.  That's why there is a risk with guys like Smart, Randle, Okafor and Brown - those guys dominated the college game because they were so much bigger/stronger then everybody else that they just got by on bully-ball.  Then when they have gotten to the NBA they've realised that tactic doesn't work anymore..and unless they have a special set of skills they can utilise, they struggle to translate that dominance in the NBA.

On the other hand guys who have well a superior size/strength/athleticism AND also have a high skill level - those guys tend to do very well at the NBA level.

Smart falls into the former category.  His biggest selling point was always his physical tools - the size, the strength, the physicality.  His wasn't entirely without skills, but 'skill level' was never listed as a strength on a Marcus Smart scouting report.  At least not on the offensive end - nobody ever gushed over Smart's shooting, his ball handling, his passing.

Dunn is different because he's a guy who has the physical tools (size, strength, athleticism) to excel at the college level, but he also has the skill level to make the most of those physical tools at the NBA level.

This is why Dunn is so much more promising as an NBA prospect then Smart was, even though Smart was probably just as good in college.

It's also why Karl Anthony Towns has become so much better an NBA player then Jahlil Okafor has, even though Okafor was just as dominant at the college level.  When those guys moved to the NBA and suddenly their physical advantages over their opponents became less pronounced, they found themselves having to rely on their skill for an advantage.  Towns was able to utilise a number of skills to get the upper hand, while the only special skill Okafor was able to leverage was his post game - which is why he translated to such a one dimensional player in the NBA.

This is why I am adamant that Ben Simmons is going to be a very good NBA player.  Because he doesn't only have the physical advantages (the strength, the athleticism, the size), - he has a phenomenal set of basketball skills / talents that he can leverage to give him an advantage against any number of matchups.

Then you have guys like Valentine who have the opposite problem - the "Olynyk Syndrome".  These guys have very impressive skill sets, but a lack physical tools.  Those guys find themselves at a physical disadvantage on many nights, so they need to rely on their outstanding set of skills just to ensure they can earn a role in the league. Valentine should be a very nice an servicable player at the NBA level and will probably be the type of guy who increases team wins everywhere he goes (like Shane Battier) - but it's unlike he'll ever so much as sniff stardom.

Fantastic post Crimson. TP.

I agree with what you mentioned here, that Dunn has both the physical tools as well as the skill. While smart, on the other hand, got by in college largely due to strength. If smart still has enough value, I would not be opposed to trading him and maybe 16/23 to get someone else we need, and taking Dunn as the pg of the future.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2016, 02:25:39 PM »

Offline chambers

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I think we'll trade the pick for Okafor if anything tonight.
Danny's saying we are taking Dunn to get an extra pick out of Philly IMO.

I would be stoked if we end up with Dunn though, i do think he's a potential franchise player.
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Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Woj Celtics more than likely keeping pick
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2016, 02:53:33 PM »

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not sure where to put this, so i will try here. only a rumor it seems...

According to sources, the Bucks and Celtics are still exploring a potential deal that would send Middleton to the Celtics. Middleton, who can also play small forward, is coming off a breakthrough season. He averaged 18.2 points and 3.8 rebounds. He is a top-flight shooter, connecting on 40 percent of his treys last season.

One of the trade scenarios, a source said, is packaging Middleton with veteran center Greg Monroe, whom the Bucks have been seriously shopping. It is known the Celtics have had interest in Monroe for a long time.

In return for Middleton and Monroe, the Bucks could possibly acquire two first-round picks from the Celtics in today’s draft: Nos. 16 and 23, along with another player.

http://www.woelfelspressbox.com/blog-entry/24/will-bucks-celtics-play-lets-make-a-deal
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