LeBron vs Jordan

[LarBrd33]

Bill Russell won 11 titles and 5 MVP's

TP. 

If we even invent time machines and are allowed to do a game of pick-up basketball using anyone from history, let's do it as a snake draft.  I'll let you have the first pick so you can take Bill Russell. 

[byennie]

I think the key differentiator right now, is simple this:

Between 1990-91 and 1997-98 seasons, let's call it "peak Jordan", he:

* Won 6 titles
* Averaged over 63 wins per season
* Lost one playoff series, after joining a 31-31 team (Semifinals vs Orlando & Shaq)
* Had multiple titles with < 4 total postseason losses

No one player has ever dominated a decade like that- for 8 years literally nobody beat a Jordan team except Shaq (in 6 games when Jordan hadn't played in 1.5 years).

Sure... and if we're looking at LeBron at the same age, he's got 3 more years until he reaches the end of Jordan's 1998 peak.   So far he has 3 titles in 6 straight appearances with two different teams (incredible).   I doubt he wins 3 more over the next 3 years, but who knows.

Also, Jordan's Bulls went from a 57 win team to a 55 win team when he retired in 1994.  Kinda interesting.

Not quite as interesting if you consider that they went from 31-31 (w/o Jordan) to 154-27 (with) in the following 3 seasons.

[LarBrd33]

I think the key differentiator right now, is simple this:

Between 1990-91 and 1997-98 seasons, let's call it "peak Jordan", he:

* Won 6 titles
* Averaged over 63 wins per season
* Lost one playoff series, after joining a 31-31 team (Semifinals vs Orlando & Shaq)
* Had multiple titles with < 4 total postseason losses

No one player has ever dominated a decade like that- for 8 years literally nobody beat a Jordan team except Shaq (in 6 games when Jordan hadn't played in 1.5 years).

Sure... and if we're looking at LeBron at the same age, he's got 3 more years until he reaches the end of Jordan's 1998 peak.   So far he has 3 titles in 6 straight appearances with two different teams (incredible).   I doubt he wins 3 more over the next 3 years, but who knows.

Also, Jordan's Bulls went from a 57 win team to a 55 win team when he retired in 1994.  Kinda interesting.

Not quite as interesting if you consider that they went from 31-31 (w/o Jordan) to 154-27 (with) in the following 3 seasons.

You must mean Dennis Rodman.

ha jk

Rise of the Bulls coincides well with the arrival of Pippen

Jordan's first year - 38 wins (no Pippen)
Jordan's second year - 30 wins (no Pippen)
Jordan's third year - 40 wins (no Pippen)
Jordan's forth year - 50 wins (PIPPEN!!!)

Then eventually they started rollin.  Third championship they win 57 games.  Next year, Pippen leads them to 55 games wins without Jordan. 

Even after they retired, Jordan leads Wizards to back-to-back losing seasons while Pippen helps Houston finished 3rd in the West and then helps Portland win 59, 50, 49 and 50 games in his next 4 seasons.
.

[Onslaught]

At the same age.

31 year old Jordan (Just finished the 1994-95 Season after returning from baseball)

3× NBA champion (1991–1993) - 3 appearances
3× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993)
3× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991, 1992)
9× NBA All-Star (1985–1993)
1× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988)
7× All-NBA First Team (1987–1993)
All-NBA Second Team (1985)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)


31 year old LeBron James (just finished the 2015-16 Season after returning to Cleveland):

3× NBA champion (2012, 2013, 2016) - 7 appearances
3× NBA Finals MVP (2012, 2013, 2016)
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009, 2010, 2012, 2013)
12× NBA All-Star (2005–2016)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
10× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2016)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2004)

Consider how many years LeBron has left playing at a high level.  Also consider that Michael Jordan never had an above-.500 record without Scottie Pippen (in 5 tries) and the Bulls won 55 games without him.   Consider that the Heat and Cavs were immediately trash in the wake of LeBron leaving.  Discuss.

So the fact that Lebron already lost in multiple finals and was saved by Ray Allen vs. the Spurs is enough to make a case for Lebron when he is 3 rings short? Thats good to know. Either it speaks to your NBA knowledge, or this post was made to get attention.

I think winning this ring just proves Lebron is better than Bird. He needs to win more to make up for the ones he has already lost.

Lol... "Saved By Ray Allen". 

I love that's the narrative now.  Does that mean that this fanbase now feels Ray abandoning Boston is justified?  Cuz I've been in that corner since day 1.  It made sense for him to leave.  Boston was done.

Anyways - lots of players hit big shots to contribute to Jordan's titles.   Jordan never won a title on two different teams.  Jordan never defeated a 73 win team.   LeBron's in the discussion already.

He won with two different teams because he ran away from the first one to make a super friends team. He did that because he knew he'd never get past Boston. And even then went 2-2 with them and got lucky with one of those. He was horrible vs the Mavs and I don't recall MJ ever blowing in the Finals. And he never defeated a 73 win team because his team was the one with the record.

[Onslaught]

I think the key differentiator right now, is simple this:

Between 1990-91 and 1997-98 seasons, let's call it "peak Jordan", he:

* Won 6 titles
* Averaged over 63 wins per season
* Lost one playoff series, after joining a 31-31 team (Semifinals vs Orlando & Shaq)
* Had multiple titles with < 4 total postseason losses

No one player has ever dominated a decade like that- for 8 years literally nobody beat a Jordan team except Shaq (in 6 games when Jordan hadn't played in 1.5 years).

Sure... and if we're looking at LeBron at the same age, he's got 3 more years until he reaches the end of Jordan's 1998 peak.   So far he has 3 titles in 6 straight appearances with two different teams (incredible).   I doubt he wins 3 more over the next 3 years, but who knows.

Also, Jordan's Bulls went from a 57 win team to a 55 win team when he retired in 1994.  Kinda interesting.

Not quite as interesting if you consider that they went from 31-31 (w/o Jordan) to 154-27 (with) in the following 3 seasons.

You must mean Dennis Rodman.

ha jk

Rise of the Bulls coincides well with the arrival of Pippen

Jordan's first year - 38 wins (no Pippen)
Jordan's second year - 30 wins (no Pippen)
Jordan's third year - 40 wins (no Pippen)
Jordan's forth year - 50 wins (PIPPEN!!!)

Then eventually they started rollin.  Third championship they win 57 games.  Next year, Pippen leads them to 55 games wins without Jordan. 

Even after they retired, Jordan leads Wizards to back-to-back losing seasons while Pippen helps Houston finished 3rd in the West and then helps Portland win 59, 50, 49 and 50 games in his next 4 seasons.
.

That was the 80's and the Bulls played in the east. And in the 80's the east was by far the dominate conference. In Jame's time the east has almost always been a joke.

[byennie]

I think the key differentiator right now, is simple this:

Between 1990-91 and 1997-98 seasons, let's call it "peak Jordan", he:

* Won 6 titles
* Averaged over 63 wins per season
* Lost one playoff series, after joining a 31-31 team (Semifinals vs Orlando & Shaq)
* Had multiple titles with < 4 total postseason losses

No one player has ever dominated a decade like that- for 8 years literally nobody beat a Jordan team except Shaq (in 6 games when Jordan hadn't played in 1.5 years).

Sure... and if we're looking at LeBron at the same age, he's got 3 more years until he reaches the end of Jordan's 1998 peak.   So far he has 3 titles in 6 straight appearances with two different teams (incredible).   I doubt he wins 3 more over the next 3 years, but who knows.

Also, Jordan's Bulls went from a 57 win team to a 55 win team when he retired in 1994.  Kinda interesting.

Not quite as interesting if you consider that they went from 31-31 (w/o Jordan) to 154-27 (with) in the following 3 seasons.

You must mean Dennis Rodman.

ha jk

Rise of the Bulls coincides well with the arrival of Pippen

Jordan's first year - 38 wins (no Pippen)
Jordan's second year - 30 wins (no Pippen)
Jordan's third year - 40 wins (no Pippen)
Jordan's forth year - 50 wins (PIPPEN!!!)

Then eventually they started rollin.  Third championship they win 57 games.  Next year, Pippen leads them to 55 games wins without Jordan. 

Even after they retired, Jordan leads Wizards to back-to-back losing seasons while Pippen helps Houston finished 3rd in the West and then helps Portland win 59, 50, 49 and 50 games in his next 4 seasons.
.

I don't think that anyone would disagree Pippen was the most important teammate in Jordan's career. But if we're going to play that game, then consider that Dwayne Wade won a title before LeBron came to Miami.

As for the other correlations- late career Houston vs Wizards? Really? That matters somehow?

Pippen wins 55 games (still worse than any season with Jordan in that decade) and fails in the playoffs and that proves something against Jordan?

Sure it coincides. Jordan enters his prime, gets a great sidekick and proceeds to lead the Bulls to the most dominant decade in modern history. LeBron enters his prime, gets Wade & Bosh followed by Irving & Love, and has a great run, but a full step or two below 90s Bulls.

[greece66]

Larbrd33 you really went over the top man.

If Lebron's career after 31 looks anything like that of Jordan we can reopen this thread in a few years.

And you still need to find him a Phil Jackson who will point out to him his mistakes. Yes, yesterday's performance was physically dominant, but Lebron kept doing the same mistakes in the offence again and again; Cleveland's attack started with 5 secs left on the clock.

And even if you get him a Phil Jackson, I doubt Lebron will listen to him; esp. after these Finals.

[Celtics17]

Comparing Lebron to MJ is really apples n oranges. MJ was a great one on one defender and the best offensive player ever not named Wilt. Lebron is more of an all around team player. He doesnt take over games on offense, he does it with his all around game.

MJ while being a great defensive player did not have the overall impact defensively that Lebron has. He wasnt the rebounder or even the facilitator that James is. What he did do was absolutely control games with his offensive game. Does that make him better then Lebron? At this point, it does.

I think someone said that James wasn't even the best player on his own team last night. I'm not sure if that is accurate but a good case could be made that Green had a better game and this doesnt happen if MJ is playing. Jordan's ability to dictate games with just his scoring separates him from almost any player of the last 30 years. When we get to players like Jabaar and Wilt who could do it with both offense, defense, and rebounding then the GOAT debate may get complicated.

[Celtics4ever]

MJ didn't have NBA refs handicap series for him, either and has a much better record.

[Sketch5]

If he gets to the Finals another 3-4 times and wins another ring or two, along with projected statistical dominance for at least another half decade ... he'll have a strong argument to make.

He's already got Jordan beat all-time in Finals appearances 7 to 6, but a lot of that has had to do with surrounding talent.   Jordan's Bulls were a 55 win team without him.   Jordan played 5 seasons without Pippen (3 in Chicago and 2 on the Wizards) and never cracked .500 during those seasons.  Every year was a losing year.  Meanwhile, LeBron has proven he can join a team and immediately make it a legitimate contender. 

Consider that the Cavs were a 17 win team before he arrived.  They finished above .500 his second season and won 50 games his 3rd.  It took jordan until year 4 (with Pippen) until they even finished above .500.   LeBron turns the Cavs into a 66 win team.  He leaves and they go from a 61 to 19 win team.   They were a 33 win team the year before he returned - he returns and they go to the Finals back-to-back and Win a championship.  Meanwhile, the Heat go from making the Finals 4 years straight to ending up in the lotto the year after LeBron leaves. 

There's a legitimate case to be made, RIGHT NOW, that LeBron James is a better basketball player than Jordan was. 

There's things that LeBron does better - such as passing and 3-point shooting.  LeBron is his match athletically and has significantly more size.   

What do you think Jordan did better?

For the record, I still see Jordan as the greatest of all time mainly because LeBron has yet to prove he can beat a Monstars team.  But I think the case for LeBron is there already.   He's now proven he can win a championship with two different teams... teams that are not even contenders without him.   The Bulls were a contender in 94 without Jordan.

You say that Jordan couldn't have done it with out Pippen. Why there is truth to that, Lebron has had Wade,Bosh, and Irving....We'll even throw Love in there who was playing well till the series.

Jordan didn't go play with All Stars, he made players around him All Stars. Rodman was one that was brought in, but he wasn't a Wade,Irving level player.

Jordan also played when the talent level was higher, and more of it. And the league was more defense oriented. You look at the Detroit, Cleveland,NY, Indy teams he had to go threw every year, and thats more than Lebron had to go threw. 

Also go re-watch some Jordan videos. He does things that Lebron wishes he could do in NBA2K games.

[Surferdad]

If he gets to the Finals another 3-4 times and wins another ring or two, along with projected statistical dominance for at least another half decade ... he'll have a strong argument to make.

He's already got Jordan beat all-time in Finals appearances 7 to 6, but a lot of that has had to do with surrounding talent.   Jordan's Bulls were a 55 win team without him.   Jordan played 5 seasons without Pippen (3 in Chicago and 2 on the Wizards) and never cracked .500 during those seasons.  Every year was a losing year.  Meanwhile, LeBron has proven he can join a team and immediately make it a legitimate contender. 

Consider that the Cavs were a 17 win team before he arrived.  They finished above .500 his second season and won 50 games his 3rd.  It took jordan until year 4 (with Pippen) until they even finished above .500.   LeBron turns the Cavs into a 66 win team.  He leaves and they go from a 61 to 19 win team.   They were a 33 win team the year before he returned - he returns and they go to the Finals back-to-back and Win a championship.  Meanwhile, the Heat go from making the Finals 4 years straight to ending up in the lotto the year after LeBron leaves. 

There's a legitimate case to be made, RIGHT NOW, that LeBron James is a better basketball player than Jordan was. 

There's things that LeBron does better - such as passing and 3-point shooting.  LeBron is his match athletically and has significantly more size.   

What do you think Jordan did better?

For the record, I still see Jordan as the greatest of all time mainly because LeBron has yet to prove he can beat a Monstars team.  But I think the case for LeBron is there already.   He's now proven he can win a championship with two different teams... teams that are not even contenders without him.   The Bulls were a contender in 94 without Jordan.

You say that Jordan couldn't have done it with out Pippen. Why there is truth to that, Lebron has had Wade,Bosh, and Irving....We'll even throw Love in there who was playing well till the series.

Jordan didn't go play with All Stars, he made players around him All Stars. Rodman was one that was brought in, but he wasn't a Wade,Irving level player.

Jordan also played when the talent level was higher, and more of it. And the league was more defense oriented. You look at the Detroit, Cleveland,NY, Indy teams he had to go threw every year, and thats more than Lebron had to go threw. 

Also go re-watch some Jordan videos. He does things that Lebron wishes he could do in NBA2K games.

Two great points.  LeBron has essentially chosen his own teams since he left Cleveland the first time.  He also chose his own conference, the weaker East.  He has had the ability to nicely arrange for his own success.  Yes, he's a great player but he also was able to stack the odds in his favor.

[GratefulCs]

I've gained more respect for Lebron after these finals


But there's no way you can be compared to Jordan after scoring 17 points per game in a finals

[GratefulCs]

Kyrie vs. Jordan



I mean...


Look at what he's done already


Goat


/green font

[Moranis]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If I'm starting a team from scratch I take Lebron James every single day of the week.  If I need to win a game or series I take Michael Jordan every single day of the week. 

[ederson]

Jordan didn't go play with All Stars, he made players around him All Stars. Rodman was one that was brought in, but he wasn't a Wade,Irving level player.

I think you are wrong on this.They were good-very good players.Without MJ  Bulls were still a very good team. MJ elevated to team to dynasty status that is absolutely true but he had around him the perfect roster. Not the most talented but exactly what he needed to win. James had the same with the Heat. But Cavs ..... Lebron , Kyrie , a completely lost Love ,a useful roleplayer in TT and some other bodies ....

I`m trying to remember a Champion with a more disfunctional roster