If Cleveland comes back and wins the series, what will the narrative be?

[Fafnir]

That's true Moranis... when he's playing through a knee injury.

Curry has a fantastic handle and has been one of the best finishers in the league the last two years. He was never the same guy after his knee injury in these playoffs, and that made the Warriors much easier to defend.

If you don't believe me, go watch some tape of Curry from the regular season. It's absurd to suggest he's not a complete offensive player.

Great is a relative term of course, but I don't put him in the Westbrook/Irving category of ball handler, driver, etc.  He is good ball handler, but part of the reason he is even as good as he is at driving is people get on him to stop the shooting.  Imagine if he had Iverson's ball handling and ability to get to the hole, with his shooting ability.   

Curry is a good passer, but he is always taking risks like that nonsensical behind the back pass at the end of the game last night. 

He is an unbelievable shooter, but he isn't backing guys down, he isn't passing over double teams, he isn't driving it to the hole with conviction and waiting for that hit, etc.  Aside from shooting, what he excels at is using the threat of shooting to create space, but that is all based on his shooting.

I maintain my statement that Curry isn't a complete offensive player.  Greatest shooter in NBA history, but doesn't have the complete offensive game to go with it, and frankly with his small frame, I don't think he will ever develop it.  He is just too small to be the guy that can score among the trees.

Weird that he scored among the trees all season and Kyrie did as well as can many other littler guards.

Also by your logic LBJ isn't a complete offensive player because he can't shoot consistently from outside anymore either. So guess there aren't any complete offensive players in the game? Or maybe you'd give Durant the nod as being "the one complete offensive player".

Or are we JUST counting the last 3 games we watched? Then what you are saying would make sense. Complete doesn't mean perfect.

[MBunge]

The Warriors were "light years ahead of the league" but just got beaten by an opponent featuring two number 1 picks and a pretty great number four pick.

But the main two reasons Golden State lost had nothing to do with talent.

1.  They just flat gave away at least one and probably two games in the Finals.

2.  While not playing perfect defense, Cleveland committed to defending the three and Golden State never adjusted.  Look at that play at the end of Game 7 where Love is defending Curry.  People are rightly giving Love credit for his effort but Curry could have blown by him anytime he wanted and either stopped for a mid-range jumper and likely a foul, put up a floater or drawn in the defense and kicked it out.  Curry did none of that.  He just juked back and forth until he could chuck up a contested three.

Mike

because that is all Curry is.  He is not a great ball handler, driver, etc.  He is probably the greatest shooter in league history, but he is not a complete offensive player.

Curry isn't Thompson, who becomes much less effective when he puts the ball on the floor.  Curry can drive and score or dish, he just fixated on hitting the big three and wasn't thinking of anything else.

[chambers]

The narrative will be a mix of "73 wins meant nothing" and "Lebron silenced the critics of his legacy".

Yup.

LeBron played his best at the end. Steph did not, looked worn down from the season/injury/series. Draymond missing game 5 looks so brutal given how well he played in game 7. Amazing game from Green nearly matching what LBJ did, just didn't get enough from Curry or Barnes/Iggy to make it more than a 1 possession game. And Cleveland and Irving hit the biggest shot of the game after a bunch of bad possessions on both sides, that was the game.

And Tyron Lue will soon get the credit for what was the Cavs strategy from Game 3 onwards ..force Curry to defend and if they are going to beat us with three point shooting- it must be through any players other than Thompson and Curry.
Let Green get 30. Let him scream and yell and feel like the man- GSW ain't winning a ship' with Draymond Green as their lead offensive player.

[Fafnir]

Curry isn't Thompson, who becomes much less effective when he puts the ball on the floor.  Curry can drive and score or dish, he just fixated on hitting the big three and wasn't thinking of anything else.

I think he was tired/worn out/whatever you want to call it and couldn't get by guys or the amount of space he did most of the season.

Reminded me of how Pierce or other older C's would look by the end of the series against the Heat, just worn down. But he's not old which makes me think the season and injuries caught up with him. He's not the biggest guy either...

[alley oop]

...

Eh, I don't think the Cavs have done a particularly great job building a supporting cast.

This series was about the brilliance of James and Irving, with Thompson as the major tertiary contributor.

The next group of contributors featured a guy they got via a number one pick in Kevin Love, a veteran ring chaser signing in Richard Jefferson, and two trade acquisitions in Shumpert and J. R. Smith.  Credit to the Cavs for the Knicks trade, which worked out for them much better than the Love trade.

Phil Jackson threw J. R. Smith in that trade for free. They should thank him.

[Fafnir]

...

Eh, I don't think the Cavs have done a particularly great job building a supporting cast.

This series was about the brilliance of James and Irving, with Thompson as the major tertiary contributor.

The next group of contributors featured a guy they got via a number one pick in Kevin Love, a veteran ring chaser signing in Richard Jefferson, and two trade acquisitions in Shumpert and J. R. Smith.  Credit to the Cavs for the Knicks trade, which worked out for them much better than the Love trade.

Phil Jackson threw J. R. Smith in that trade for free. They should thank him.

J.R. Smith is a guy you get a for a few years at most and have to move after that. Just doesn't stay consistently good anywhere.  All sorts of problems both on and off.

[PhoSita]

That's true Moranis... when he's playing through a knee injury.

Curry has a fantastic handle and has been one of the best finishers in the league the last two years. He was never the same guy after his knee injury in these playoffs, and that made the Warriors much easier to defend.

If you don't believe me, go watch some tape of Curry from the regular season. It's absurd to suggest he's not a complete offensive player.

Great is a relative term of course, but I don't put him in the Westbrook/Irving category of ball handler, driver, etc.  He is good ball handler, but part of the reason he is even as good as he is at driving is people get on him to stop the shooting.  Imagine if he had Iverson's ball handling and ability to get to the hole, with his shooting ability.   

Curry is a good passer, but he is always taking risks like that nonsensical behind the back pass at the end of the game last night. 

He is an unbelievable shooter, but he isn't backing guys down, he isn't passing over double teams, he isn't driving it to the hole with conviction and waiting for that hit, etc.  Aside from shooting, what he excels at is using the threat of shooting to create space, but that is all based on his shooting.

I maintain my statement that Curry isn't a complete offensive player.  Greatest shooter in NBA history, but doesn't have the complete offensive game to go with it, and frankly with his small frame, I don't think he will ever develop it.  He is just too small to be the guy that can score among the trees.

You're completely ignoring the data when you say that. Before his knee injury, Curry was one of the best in the league at "scoring among the trees."

No, he doesn't back guys down or pass over guys.  He's not LeBron.  That's not his game.

I said yesterday, being able to dominate when you are not at your physical best is part of coming through in the playoffs.  LeBron, with his all-time mixture of size, strength, and speed, has figured out how to do that.  Curry was not able to do that in these playoffs.

Let's not start to revise history about what Curry was able to do in the regular season the last two years, not to mention the vast majority of the playoffs last year.  He was phenomenal and will likely continue to be phenomenal for at least a few more years, though he may never again be quite as sensational as he was during the 2015-2016 regular season.

[Fafnir]

though he may never again be quite as sensational as he was during the 2015-2016 regular season.

Just as LeBron will never be as good as 09-10 or maybe 12-13, whichever peak you think he was at his absolute best at (both were amazing in slightly different ways)

Darn scrub players only peaking once or twice!

[Moranis]

That's true Moranis... when he's playing through a knee injury.

Curry has a fantastic handle and has been one of the best finishers in the league the last two years. He was never the same guy after his knee injury in these playoffs, and that made the Warriors much easier to defend.

If you don't believe me, go watch some tape of Curry from the regular season. It's absurd to suggest he's not a complete offensive player.

Great is a relative term of course, but I don't put him in the Westbrook/Irving category of ball handler, driver, etc.  He is good ball handler, but part of the reason he is even as good as he is at driving is people get on him to stop the shooting.  Imagine if he had Iverson's ball handling and ability to get to the hole, with his shooting ability.   

Curry is a good passer, but he is always taking risks like that nonsensical behind the back pass at the end of the game last night. 

He is an unbelievable shooter, but he isn't backing guys down, he isn't passing over double teams, he isn't driving it to the hole with conviction and waiting for that hit, etc.  Aside from shooting, what he excels at is using the threat of shooting to create space, but that is all based on his shooting.

I maintain my statement that Curry isn't a complete offensive player.  Greatest shooter in NBA history, but doesn't have the complete offensive game to go with it, and frankly with his small frame, I don't think he will ever develop it.  He is just too small to be the guy that can score among the trees.

You're completely ignoring the data when you say that. Before his knee injury, Curry was one of the best in the league at "scoring among the trees."

No, he doesn't back guys down or pass over guys.  He's not LeBron.  That's not his game.

I said yesterday, being able to dominate when you are not at your physical best is part of coming through in the playoffs.  LeBron, with his all-time mixture of size, strength, and speed, has figured out how to do that.  Curry was not able to do that in these playoffs.

Let's not start to revise history about what Curry was able to do in the regular season the last two years, not to mention the vast majority of the playoffs last year.  He was phenomenal and will likely continue to be phenomenal for at least a few more years, though he may never again be quite as sensational as he was during the 2015-2016 regular season.

What data is that?  The stuff I've seen, shows that Curry isn't a very good mid-range shooter and shoots over 55% of his total shots from three.   

One of these guys is Stephen Curry, one of these guys is Kyrie Irving

3' to 10' - FG% - 40.3
10' to 16' - FG% - 50.4
16' to 3pt - FG% - 47.3

3' to 10' - FG% - 42.2
10' to 16' - FG% - 44.7
16' to 3pt - FG% - 44.3

Curry's percentage of total attempts from those ranges are 8.4, 4.8, and 8.8, while Irving is 16.4, 13.1, and 16.6.  Irving is the first guy, Curry is the second guy.

Curry is an unbelievable three point shooter, but his mid-range game is virtually non-existent.  He doesn't take those shots all that much, and doesn't hit them all that well (which may be why he doesn't shoot them that much). 

[PhoSita]

Oh for Pete's sake, Moranis, just look on the last page.  I even bolded it for you.

Don't not read what I've written and then quote numbers at me, please.

[PhoSita]

Curry shot 68-70% within three feet the last two years, and around 45% between three feet and the three point line. Those are elite numbers.

In the playoffs this year, Steph shot 54% within three feet, and around 40% in the in-between area.  Last year his numbers inside the arc were in line with his regular season numbers.

Curry is an elite scorer from virtually any spot on the floor.  In particular, he kills it at the rim and from beyond the three point line.

He's got an amazing handle, and he's become an excellent passer.  His assist numbers don't fully depict how good a passer he is.

He's not perfect.  He can't do everything.  He struggled to perform at his customary level in these playoffs after getting injured.  That's part of the game.

But to suggest he's not a "complete" player is revisionist history, or it's setting the bar for "complete" so high that no player could ever hope to reach it.

[Drucci]

I've always disliked LeBron and thought that he was overrated but even I have to admit that what he achieved in the Finals has been simply unprecedented and crazy. He basically honored his promise of two years ago in the toughest possible scenario (down 3-1) and even though it's also a sound business decision for himself, it commands respect.

What bothers me, however, is that the media will keep depicting him as a great clutch performer. It was obvious during this game that he was scared to shoot, or drive, and that he'd rather pass the ball to teammates more willing to take big shots, like Kyrie (or Wade in Miami).

I've never seen a superstar capable of such dominating performances in all the areas of the game and yet scared of the moment in some of his biggest games. And that's not necessarily a knock on him (although he would have been destroyed by the media and the fans had he lost game 7 after this performance, even though his statistical numbers are impressive) : I find it quite fascinating.

Also, this scenario kind of changes the whole landscape of the league now that the Warriors are no longer champions, so I can't wait for next season to start. Hopefully with the Celtics among the contenders.

[Moranis]

I've always disliked LeBron and thought that he was overrated but even I have to admit that what he achieved in the Finals has been simply unprecedented and crazy. He basically honored his promise of two years ago in the toughest possible scenario (down 3-1) and even though it's also a sound business decision for himself, it commands respect.

What bothers me, however, is that the media will keep depicting him as a great clutch performer. It was obvious during this game that he was scared to shoot, or drive, and that he'd rather pass the ball to teammates more willing to take big shots, like Kyrie (or Wade in Miami).

I've never seen a superstar capable of such dominating performances in all the areas of the game and yet scared of the moment in some of his biggest games. And that's not necessarily a knock on him (although he would have been destroyed by the media and the fans had he lost game 7 after this performance, even though his statistical numbers are impressive) : I find it quite fascinating.

Also, this scenario kind of changes the whole landscape of the league now that the Warriors are no longer champions, so I can't wait for next season to start. Hopefully with the Celtics among the contenders.

posted this in another thread


Here are the closeout games James' teams have lost (i.e. win and advance) or elimination games (i.e. lose and go home) since the Dallas series.

Game 4 L 5/6/12 1st round Knicks - 27p, 4r, 4a, 1s, 0b, 5t
Game 6 W 6/7/12 ECF Celtics - 45, 15, 5, 0, 0, 4
Game 7 W 6/9/12 ECF Celtics - 31, 12, 2, 1, 1, 3
Game 6 L 6/1/13 ECF Pacers - 29, 7, 6, 2, 1, 4
Game 7 W 6/3/13 ECF Pacers - 32, 8, 4, 2, 1, 2
Game 6 W 6/18/13 Finals Spurs - 32, 10, 11, 3, 1, 6
Game 7 W 6/20/13 Finals Spurs - 37, 12, 4, 2, 0, 2
Game 5 L 5/28/14 ECF Pacers - 7, 2, 4, 0, 1, 3
Game 5 L 6/15/14 Finals Spurs - 31, 10, 5, 0, 2, 1
Game 6 L 6/16/15 Finals Warriors - 32, 18, 9, 2, 0, 6
Game 5 W 6/13/16 Finals Warriors - 41, 16, 7, 3, 3, 2
Game 6 W 6/16/16 Finals Warriors - 41, 8, 11, 4, 3, 1
Game 7 W 6/19/16 Finals Warriors - 27, 11, 11, 2, 3, 5

One stinker in Game 5 in which they were up 3-1 and won in 6.

[Drucci]

I've always disliked LeBron and thought that he was overrated but even I have to admit that what he achieved in the Finals has been simply unprecedented and crazy. He basically honored his promise of two years ago in the toughest possible scenario (down 3-1) and even though it's also a sound business decision for himself, it commands respect.

What bothers me, however, is that the media will keep depicting him as a great clutch performer. It was obvious during this game that he was scared to shoot, or drive, and that he'd rather pass the ball to teammates more willing to take big shots, like Kyrie (or Wade in Miami).

I've never seen a superstar capable of such dominating performances in all the areas of the game and yet scared of the moment in some of his biggest games. And that's not necessarily a knock on him (although he would have been destroyed by the media and the fans had he lost game 7 after this performance, even though his statistical numbers are impressive) : I find it quite fascinating.

Also, this scenario kind of changes the whole landscape of the league now that the Warriors are no longer champions, so I can't wait for next season to start. Hopefully with the Celtics among the contenders.

posted this in another thread


Here are the closeout games James' teams have lost (i.e. win and advance) or elimination games (i.e. lose and go home) since the Dallas series.

Game 4 L 5/6/12 1st round Knicks - 27p, 4r, 4a, 1s, 0b, 5t
Game 6 W 6/7/12 ECF Celtics - 45, 15, 5, 0, 0, 4
Game 7 W 6/9/12 ECF Celtics - 31, 12, 2, 1, 1, 3
Game 6 L 6/1/13 ECF Pacers - 29, 7, 6, 2, 1, 4
Game 7 W 6/3/13 ECF Pacers - 32, 8, 4, 2, 1, 2
Game 6 W 6/18/13 Finals Spurs - 32, 10, 11, 3, 1, 6
Game 7 W 6/20/13 Finals Spurs - 37, 12, 4, 2, 0, 2
Game 5 L 5/28/14 ECF Pacers - 7, 2, 4, 0, 1, 3
Game 5 L 6/15/14 Finals Spurs - 31, 10, 5, 0, 2, 1
Game 6 L 6/16/15 Finals Warriors - 32, 18, 9, 2, 0, 6
Game 5 W 6/13/16 Finals Warriors - 41, 16, 7, 3, 3, 2
Game 6 W 6/16/16 Finals Warriors - 41, 8, 11, 4, 3, 1
Game 7 W 6/19/16 Finals Warriors - 27, 11, 11, 2, 3, 5

One stinker in Game 5 in which they were up 3-1 and won in 6.

I know his stats are impressive but as you know after following Rondo for so many years, some players simply know how to get massive stats (or triple doubles) which are actually more impressive than their actual performance is. I'm not saying all of LeBron's closeout games are like this but you really have to watch the actual tape to see how he is playing (i.e scared or dominating) and then evaluate his performance in regards to his numbers.

[Fafnir]

Oh for Pete's sake, Moranis, just look on the last page.  I even bolded it for you.

Don't not read what I've written and then quote numbers at me, please.

Best part is when he complains he's not complete because he takes too many shots at the rim and from 3.