Comparing Bender to another 2016 Draft Prospect

[Celtics4ever]

Bender has a high IQ but less physical upside. I don't see the bust in Bender. Assuming his body fills out there isn't anything that says he won't develop into a competent player

Then why has he not produced competent level stats in a lesser league?   Square that one for me.   Even if he was young, if your good you will play.  Cream rises to the top, not fine rides the pine, it has always been that way in sports.

[chilidawg]

Bender has a high IQ but less physical upside. I don't see the bust in Bender. Assuming his body fills out there isn't anything that says he won't develop into a competent player

Then why has he not produced competent level stats in a lesser league?   Square that one for me.   Even if he was young, if your good you will play.  Cream rises to the top, not fine rides the pine, it has always been that way in sports.

So Labissiere and Diallo are out as well?

[TheSundanceKid]

Bender has a high IQ but less physical upside. I don't see the bust in Bender. Assuming his body fills out there isn't anything that says he won't develop into a competent player

Then why has he not produced competent level stats in a lesser league?   Square that one for me.   Even if he was young, if your good you will play.  Cream rises to the top, not fine rides the pine, it has always been that way in sports.

Man this is becoming like the EU referendum...

Here's a few reasons why he hasn't played much, take them with a grain of salt if you want but you did ask;

1) The coaches in Europe tend to play their vets heavy minutes instead of letting the young guys develop in game. There isn't this cycle of compete-->rebuild-->compete in Europe. Each team competes every year and if they falter then the coach goes and someone new comes in. There are no drafts, no benefit to sucking for a few years. The tolerance for losing is low and turnover is high. All leading to less opportunities for young talent who are inevitably more raw and less experiences than their counterparts

2) Unlike his NCAA peers, Bender has to compete against fully developed basketball players. Remember that Bender would be in his senior year of high school in the USA, so actually it would be like putting Simmons or Ingram into the NBA last year

3) There a rule in the Israeli league that says there must be at least one home grown player under 21 and another under 25. I may be off on the years but either way it accounts for 2 roster spots. Bender, being Croatian, doesn't qualify for these spots. So apart from having the prejudice against playing young guys, he's automatically 3rd in line regardless of skill. it was documented recently that this was the reason why he sat out a few games in the playoffs

4) He is on a playoff team. Yes the league is a lower standard than some NCAA  conferences but the playoffs still means competition. We have seen this year that rookies can get stuck to the bench when we are trying to compete, its the same with Maccabi.

I do agree with your last statement, which is why I believe that in a few years people will be revisiting this thread and others like it to "call out" various people or claim they had it right from the start. I won't do that because I've been plenty wrong before...however I hope it will start to shift some people's thinking wrt playing time in Europe. At the age Bender is very few elite Euro prospects played or produced more

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Bender has a high IQ but less physical upside. I don't see the bust in Bender. Assuming his body fills out there isn't anything that says he won't develop into a competent player

Then why has he not produced competent level stats in a lesser league?   Square that one for me.   Even if he was young, if your good you will play.  Cream rises to the top, not fine rides the pine, it has always been that way in sports.

Man this is becoming like the EU referendum...

Here's a few reasons why he hasn't played much, take them with a grain of salt if you want but you did ask;

1) The coaches in Europe tend to play their vets heavy minutes instead of letting the young guys develop in game. There isn't this cycle of compete-->rebuild-->compete in Europe. Each team competes every year and if they falter then the coach goes and someone new comes in. There are no drafts, no benefit to sucking for a few years. The tolerance for losing is low and turnover is high. All leading to less opportunities for young talent who are inevitably more raw and less experiences than their counterparts

2) Unlike his NCAA peers, Bender has to compete against fully developed basketball players. Remember that Bender would be in his senior year of high school in the USA, so actually it would be like putting Simmons or Ingram into the NBA last year

3) There a rule in the Israeli league that says there must be at least one home grown player under 21 and another under 25. I may be off on the years but either way it accounts for 2 roster spots. Bender, being Croatian, doesn't qualify for these spots. So apart from having the prejudice against playing young guys, he's automatically 3rd in line regardless of skill. it was documented recently that this was the reason why he sat out a few games in the playoffs

4) He is on a playoff team. Yes the league is a lower standard than some NCAA  conferences but the playoffs still means competition. We have seen this year that rookies can get stuck to the bench when we are trying to compete, its the same with Maccabi.

I do agree with your last statement, which is why I believe that in a few years people will be revisiting this thread and others like it to "call out" various people or claim they had it right from the start. I won't do that because I've been plenty wrong before...however I hope it will start to shift some people's thinking wrt playing time in Europe. At the age Bender is very few elite Euro prospects played or produced more

Nice. Great insights. I heard a bit about this, but you clarified it more.

[droopdog7]

Bender has a high IQ but less physical upside. I don't see the bust in Bender. Assuming his body fills out there isn't anything that says he won't develop into a competent player

Then why has he not produced competent level stats in a lesser league?   Square that one for me.   Even if he was young, if your good you will play.  Cream rises to the top, not fine rides the pine, it has always been that way in sports.

Man this is becoming like the EU referendum...

Here's a few reasons why he hasn't played much, take them with a grain of salt if you want but you did ask;

1) The coaches in Europe tend to play their vets heavy minutes instead of letting the young guys develop in game. There isn't this cycle of compete-->rebuild-->compete in Europe. Each team competes every year and if they falter then the coach goes and someone new comes in. There are no drafts, no benefit to sucking for a few years. The tolerance for losing is low and turnover is high. All leading to less opportunities for young talent who are inevitably more raw and less experiences than their counterparts

2) Unlike his NCAA peers, Bender has to compete against fully developed basketball players. Remember that Bender would be in his senior year of high school in the USA, so actually it would be like putting Simmons or Ingram into the NBA last year

3) There a rule in the Israeli league that says there must be at least one home grown player under 21 and another under 25. I may be off on the years but either way it accounts for 2 roster spots. Bender, being Croatian, doesn't qualify for these spots. So apart from having the prejudice against playing young guys, he's automatically 3rd in line regardless of skill. it was documented recently that this was the reason why he sat out a few games in the playoffs

4) He is on a playoff team. Yes the league is a lower standard than some NCAA  conferences but the playoffs still means competition. We have seen this year that rookies can get stuck to the bench when we are trying to compete, its the same with Maccabi.

I do agree with your last statement, which is why I believe that in a few years people will be revisiting this thread and others like it to "call out" various people or claim they had it right from the start. I won't do that because I've been plenty wrong before...however I hope it will start to shift some people's thinking wrt playing time in Europe. At the age Bender is very few elite Euro prospects played or produced more

Nice. Great insights. I heard a bit about this, but you clarified it more.

The amazing part is we have posted, over and over again, Euro stats for players like Gasol, Porzingis, Jennings, and others at a similar age than Bender (showing similar production) and people continue to ask the same [dang] questions.

Clearly Bender is a risk; perhaps the biggest in the draft.  And because of that, I might not take him.  But it is easy to see the appeal with this kid.  He's got some unique, high-level skills that don't come around very often.

[ederson]

The amazing part is we have posted, over and over again, Euro stats for players like Gasol, Porzingis, Jennings, and others at a similar age than Bender (showing similar production) and people continue to ask the same [dang] questions.

Clearly Bender is a risk; perhaps the biggest in the draft.  And because of that, I might not take him.  But it is easy to see the appeal with this kid.  He's got some unique, high-level skills that don't come around very often.

The even more amazing part is that you still cannot understand that 10mpg in ACB is not  the same as 10mpg in Israeli league.

2) Unlike his NCAA peers, Bender has to compete against fully developed basketball players. Remember that Bender would be in his senior year of high school in the USA, so actually it would be like putting Simmons or Ingram into the NBA last year

No that is not ata all like that....Bender doesn`t play against Lebron and Duncan.... He plays against Diante Garet ,Alando Tucker and Alade Aminu and faces for game time Viktor Faverani  , Guy Pnini and Devin Smith.

[TheSundanceKid]

2) Unlike his NCAA peers, Bender has to compete against fully developed basketball players. Remember that Bender would be in his senior year of high school in the USA, so actually it would be like putting Simmons or Ingram into the NBA last year

No that is not ata all like that....Bender doesn`t play against Lebron and Duncan.... He plays against Diante Garet ,Alando Tucker and Alade Aminu and faces for game time Viktor Faverani  , Guy Pnini and Devin Smith.

You are right that it is not exactly the same. However it is the closest comparison, putting a senior high school player into a professional league in that country.
However I would not expect Simmons or Ingram to have had much success against the sixers last year either so the point stands

[droopdog7]

The amazing part is we have posted, over and over again, Euro stats for players like Gasol, Porzingis, Jennings, and others at a similar age than Bender (showing similar production) and people continue to ask the same [dang] questions.

Clearly Bender is a risk; perhaps the biggest in the draft.  And because of that, I might not take him.  But it is easy to see the appeal with this kid.  He's got some unique, high-level skills that don't come around very often.

The even more amazing part is that you still cannot understand that 10mpg in ACB is not  the same as 10mpg in Israeli league.

2) Unlike his NCAA peers, Bender has to compete against fully developed basketball players. Remember that Bender would be in his senior year of high school in the USA, so actually it would be like putting Simmons or Ingram into the NBA last year

No that is not ata all like that....Bender doesn`t play against Lebron and Duncan.... He plays against Diante Garet ,Alando Tucker and Alade Aminu and faces for game time Viktor Faverani  , Guy Pnini and Devin Smith.

And of course, you probably are stuck in a time capsule, thinking it's still 1999.  Basketball across the world has gotten much better.  So yeah, I would say that the league Bender is playing in is at least as strong as the one Gasol played in almost 20 years ago.

And who exactly averaged 10 points?  I think you need to recheck your stats if you are talking about Gasol.

[ederson]

You are very funny...... And obviously have no idea about european leagues. 

BTW try to read better...10MPG
MINUTES PER GAME NOT POINTS PER GAME

[droopdog7]

You are very funny...... And obviously have no idea about european leagues. 

BTW try to read better...10MPG
MINUTES PER GAME NOT POINTS PER GAME

Okay, minutes per game.  Whatever, it's a pretty useless point anyway. 

And in terms of leagues, here is what I found.  Bender is playing on the 8th strongest team in Europe in the third strongest league. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_national_basketball_league_rankings

So yeah, I stand by my point regarding Bender's competition now versus Gasol back in 1999.

[ederson]

Seriously ? wikipedia??? Do you have your own opinion about the leagues or just googling??
and again please READ before posting

the league rankings are not based merely on the basketball strength of each respective league.

Spain,Italy,Turkey,Russia. All the other leagues are of very low quality . The fact that you use this table can only be considered as a joke.... the hungarian league ranks higher than  Italian and German legues......

The Club ranking is determined by the results of clubs in the Euroleague and the Eurocup over the previous three seasons, without including the Qualifying Rounds.

Macabi THIS SEASON is not even a top 20 team in europe. Macabi THIS SEASON is possibly the worst Macabi of all times.Macabi THIS SEASON based on the rankings is 29th team in europe. 

Also macabi is the only from the  3rd strongest league in the ranking....

btw Current league rankings the table that you failed to see ranks the Isr.L. 14nth .... Lower than the Czech league.....

[ederson]

2) Unlike his NCAA peers, Bender has to compete against fully developed basketball players. Remember that Bender would be in his senior year of high school in the USA, so actually it would be like putting Simmons or Ingram into the NBA last year

No that is not ata all like that....Bender doesn`t play against Lebron and Duncan.... He plays against Diante Garet ,Alando Tucker and Alade Aminu and faces for game time Viktor Faverani  , Guy Pnini and Devin Smith.

You are right that it is not exactly the same. However it is the closest comparison, putting a senior high school player into a professional league in that country.
However I would not expect Simmons or Ingram to have had much success against the sixers last year either so the point stands

I can`t argue about the last sentence. You are probably right.
But i still think the comparison is wrong and creates false impression. NBDL is also a pro league.

[droopdog7]

Seriously ? wikipedia??? Do you have your own opinion about the leagues or just googling??
and again please READ before posting

the league rankings are not based merely on the basketball strength of each respective league.

Spain,Italy,Turkey,Russia. All the other leagues are of very low quality . The fact that you use this table can only be considered as a joke.... the hungarian league ranks higher than  Italian and German legues......

The Club ranking is determined by the results of clubs in the Euroleague and the Eurocup over the previous three seasons, without including the Qualifying Rounds.

Macabi THIS SEASON is not even a top 20 team in europe. Macabi THIS SEASON is possibly the worst Macabi of all times.Macabi THIS SEASON based on the rankings is 29th team in europe. 

Also macabi is the only from the  3rd strongest league in the ranking....

btw Current league rankings the table that you failed to see ranks the Isr.L. 14nth .... Lower than the Czech league.....

You can kill wikipedia but tell me where something is inaccurate?  You may not agree with the rankings but they are what they are.

As for Maccabi Tel Aviv, they have won the third most Euroleague championships (last one two years ago) and have appeared in the finals the second most times.  So there is definitely some pedigree there.  You act like Bender is playing for Sister of the Poor.

And in terms of your THIS YEAR comments.  They don't really mean a whole lot in this context.  These teams are trying to win THIS YEAR.  You're not getting the dual agendas, with coaches trying to win develop their youth and win at the same time.  There isn't a draft.  No, they want to win right now. 

Gasol had similar numbers to Bender at the same age in Spain.  In 98-99, when Gasol was actually OLDER than Bender was last year Barcelona did not make the top 5 in Euroleague.  So I guess they were terrible too.

[kozlodoev]

As for Maccabi Tel Aviv, they have won the third most Euroleague championships (last one two years ago) and have appeared in the finals the second most times.  So there is definitely some pedigree there.  You act like Bender is playing for Sister of the Poor.

Maccabi is playing against other teams in the Israeli league, not against itself.

[droopdog7]

As for Maccabi Tel Aviv, they have won the third most Euroleague championships (last one two years ago) and have appeared in the finals the second most times.  So there is definitely some pedigree there.  You act like Bender is playing for Sister of the Poor.

Maccabi is playing against other teams in the Israeli league, not against itself.

I guess you do not understand team dynamics.  Competition for playing time is not against other teams, it is against your team.  Guys in DII college that score 25 a game might not crack a rotation in the ACC.