Is this draft over-hyped or is it legit?

[Alleyoopster]

I find this phenomenon interesting too. I think the way we talk about/hype a player has to do with where a player is selected and the expectations that follow from that position. Like you pointed out, usually the only players facing expectations are the ones drafted 1-15. I'd say that's largely still the case. Because of this, the focus on players 1-15 isn't so much what they can do, as it is on what their weaknesses are. It's expected that they will be able to play the game, and drafting becomes more of creating hypothetical as to why they might not live up to their potential and be a bust. Thus, you hear a lot more about Bender's physical limitations, Brown's below average basketball IQ, Simmons' poor shooting, and Murray's lack of defense+effort  than you do about their positives. At this high in the draft, the positives are almost taken for granted--they wouldn't even be in this kind of conversation if they were not considered exceptional or full of potential, thus rendering moot a discussion of how fantastic they are.

On the other hand, late first rounders and second rounders are not expected to ever amount to much (with the exception of James Young). Because of this, people tend to hype up/focus on the possible positives of these players. We hear a lot about Korkmaz's silky smooth shooting and both Qi and Maker's tremendous physical upside, and not a lot about their flaws--they are expected to be flawed, if they weren't flawed, they wouldn't be second round picks.

This tint to the conversation skews the way we as fans regard our picks. While the 3rd pick is undeniably better (and should be more exciting) than the 16th pick, picking 3rd in a "two player draft" feels like a let -down, but picking 16th when there are arguably 10 guys who can fall anywhere from 6 to 16 feels like a tremendous opportunity. Picking Bender 3rd would be par for the course, but picking up Sabonis, Korkmaz, Chriss, or Ellenson with the 16th would feel tremendously lucky. Bender would still probably be a better/more exciting pick in a vacuum, but that matters less than the idea that we "stole" someone with our later pick.

My understanding of this draft is that it's a deep draft after the first 2 players. Simmons and Ingram are a step or two above the rest, (with Bender arguably only one step behind) and then everyone else from 3-17 are kind of on similar footing. I've seen Sabonis going as high as 5 and as low as 19. I've seen Korkmaz going 8th and not being drafted in the first round.

TP Very astute observation about our expectations for the top picks vs. later picks. (Although, for some, Heild can do no wrong.)

[PickNRoll]

I fully expect another olowakandi, Bibby, traylor, lafrentz, Jamison, white chocolate draft sequence. Then somebody with a shred of basketball acumen takes the next paul pierce because they aren't into potential, upside, youth, or fancy 7 foot 3 point shooters who can walk and chew gum.  Red will roll over in his grave if we end up with a bender.

No question. Red wouldn't touch the Euromistake with a 10-foot pole.

Right, he would insist on drafting Joe Forte over him. Red was human.

Joe Forte is an improvement over a softer European Kelly Olynyk.

Bender is taller and longer than Olynyk and is also much faster/quicker and by all accounts, not soft. So a tall long quick not soft Kelly Olynyk is actually a pretty great player isn't he?

Not all accounts.  Bender is the walking embodiment of soft.  If you watch the Israeli league games it's hard not to pity him for the way he's bullied and manhandled.  I had to remind myself that he's 18 and technically an adult who is going to have to stand up for himself some day.

[Eja117]

It's a legit draft

[hwangjini_1]

I fully expect another olowakandi, Bibby, traylor, lafrentz, Jamison, white chocolate draft sequence. Then somebody with a shred of basketball acumen takes the next paul pierce because they aren't into potential, upside, youth, or fancy 7 foot 3 point shooters who can walk and chew gum.  Red will roll over in his grave if we end up with a bender.

No question. Red wouldn't touch the Euromistake with a 10-foot pole.

Right, he would insist on drafting Joe Forte over him. Red was human.

Joe Forte is an improvement over a softer European Kelly Olynyk.

Bender is taller and longer than Olynyk and is also much faster/quicker and by all accounts, not soft. So a tall long quick not soft Kelly Olynyk is actually a pretty great player isn't he?

Not all accounts.  Bender is the walking embodiment of soft.  If you watch the Israeli league games it's hard not to pity him for the way he's bullied and manhandled.  I had to remind myself that he's 18 and technically an adult who is going to have to stand up for himself some day.

every report on his character and how he plays spits in the eye of the bolded statement above. say what you will about bender, lack or motor/effort/toughness are NOT what the reports say.

[PAOBoston]

There are good players in every draft. Some drafts get more press than others but there are surprises and food players in every draft.

[CFAN38]

I don't think coveting player into the 2nd round is overhyping a draft it's simply researching 50% of the draft.

[PickNRoll]

I fully expect another olowakandi, Bibby, traylor, lafrentz, Jamison, white chocolate draft sequence. Then somebody with a shred of basketball acumen takes the next paul pierce because they aren't into potential, upside, youth, or fancy 7 foot 3 point shooters who can walk and chew gum.  Red will roll over in his grave if we end up with a bender.

No question. Red wouldn't touch the Euromistake with a 10-foot pole.

Right, he would insist on drafting Joe Forte over him. Red was human.

Joe Forte is an improvement over a softer European Kelly Olynyk.

Bender is taller and longer than Olynyk and is also much faster/quicker and by all accounts, not soft. So a tall long quick not soft Kelly Olynyk is actually a pretty great player isn't he?

Not all accounts.  Bender is the walking embodiment of soft.  If you watch the Israeli league games it's hard not to pity him for the way he's bullied and manhandled.  I had to remind myself that he's 18 and technically an adult who is going to have to stand up for himself some day.

every report on his character and how he plays spits in the eye of the bolded statement above. say what you will about bender, lack or motor/effort/toughness are NOT what the reports say.

Hey, I've never met the guy.  I can only report on what I see watching the games.  Soft as soft can be.  By all accounts he's a really smart kid and a hard worker with a desire to get better.  I really like his interviews.  Still soft.

[manl_lui]

off question

any past drafts that were considered "weak" drafts ended up being a pretty good draft class?

[chambers]

I fully expect another olowakandi, Bibby, traylor, lafrentz, Jamison, white chocolate draft sequence. Then somebody with a shred of basketball acumen takes the next paul pierce because they aren't into potential, upside, youth, or fancy 7 foot 3 point shooters who can walk and chew gum.  Red will roll over in his grave if we end up with a bender.

No question. Red wouldn't touch the Euromistake with a 10-foot pole.

Right, he would insist on drafting Joe Forte over him. Red was human.

Joe Forte is an improvement over a softer European Kelly Olynyk.

Bender is taller and longer than Olynyk and is also much faster/quicker and by all accounts, not soft. So a tall long quick not soft Kelly Olynyk is actually a pretty great player isn't he?

Not all accounts.  Bender is the walking embodiment of soft.  If you watch the Israeli league games it's hard not to pity him for the way he's bullied and manhandled.  I had to remind myself that he's 18 and technically an adult who is going to have to stand up for himself some day.

every report on his character and how he plays spits in the eye of the bolded statement above. say what you will about bender, lack or motor/effort/toughness are NOT what the reports say.

If someone can provide some examples of Bender's softness, or even a report by a reputed scout that indicates he's some kind of Kelly Olynk big tissue then fire away.
There is nothing to suggest Bender is soft or shys away from physicality.
The video evidence is strongly contrary to this-he actively seeks out contact and bodies up/boxes out with tenacity.

People are just making stuff up now to fit their pre conceived whote boy stereotypes and fears of the unknown.

[PickNRoll]

off question

any past drafts that were considered "weak" drafts ended up being a pretty good draft class?

Better question - any drafts that were mis-evaluated?  Answer: nearly all of them.  The 84' draft and the Lebron draft had obvious generational talents.  Duncan and Anthony Davis were 100%.  Every other draft was an enigma that could only be evaluated years later.

[PickNRoll]

I fully expect another olowakandi, Bibby, traylor, lafrentz, Jamison, white chocolate draft sequence. Then somebody with a shred of basketball acumen takes the next paul pierce because they aren't into potential, upside, youth, or fancy 7 foot 3 point shooters who can walk and chew gum.  Red will roll over in his grave if we end up with a bender.

No question. Red wouldn't touch the Euromistake with a 10-foot pole.

Right, he would insist on drafting Joe Forte over him. Red was human.

Joe Forte is an improvement over a softer European Kelly Olynyk.

Bender is taller and longer than Olynyk and is also much faster/quicker and by all accounts, not soft. So a tall long quick not soft Kelly Olynyk is actually a pretty great player isn't he?

Not all accounts.  Bender is the walking embodiment of soft.  If you watch the Israeli league games it's hard not to pity him for the way he's bullied and manhandled.  I had to remind myself that he's 18 and technically an adult who is going to have to stand up for himself some day.

every report on his character and how he plays spits in the eye of the bolded statement above. say what you will about bender, lack or motor/effort/toughness are NOT what the reports say.

If someone can provide some examples of Bender's softness, or even a report by a reputed scout that indicates he's some kind of Kelly Olynk big tissue then fire away.
There is nothing to suggest Bender is soft or shys away from physicality.
The video evidence is strongly contrary to this-he actively seeks out contact and bodies up/boxes out with tenacity.

People are just making stuff up now to fit their pre conceived whote boy stereotypes and fears of the unknown.

Just watch the games from this year.  It's not rocket science.  The kid cannot play with grown men.  He can't be on the court when it matters.  He gets pushed around by everyone. The number of contested rebounds he won this year can be counted on your fingers, maybe on one hand.  He was not an impactful defensive player, even in garbage time.

He's a really solid 3 point shooter and he's not without skill.  Don't get me wrong.  But he is, without a doubt, soft.  He's a 7 footer that plays like he's 6-7.  He has poor rebounding instincts and gets abused in the post.  He's not "afraid", he's just unable to control space.  He has a narrow, weak base, physically speaking.  Just watch the film and count the times he's out of position or moved out of position by players much smaller than him.  That just isn't part of his game.

[max215]

I fully expect another olowakandi, Bibby, traylor, lafrentz, Jamison, white chocolate draft sequence. Then somebody with a shred of basketball acumen takes the next paul pierce because they aren't into potential, upside, youth, or fancy 7 foot 3 point shooters who can walk and chew gum.  Red will roll over in his grave if we end up with a bender.

No question. Red wouldn't touch the Euromistake with a 10-foot pole.

Right, he would insist on drafting Joe Forte over him. Red was human.

Joe Forte is an improvement over a softer European Kelly Olynyk.

Bender is taller and longer than Olynyk and is also much faster/quicker and by all accounts, not soft. So a tall long quick not soft Kelly Olynyk is actually a pretty great player isn't he?

Yes, but that doesn't fit the narrative.

[Ilikesports17]

I fully expect another olowakandi, Bibby, traylor, lafrentz, Jamison, white chocolate draft sequence. Then somebody with a shred of basketball acumen takes the next paul pierce because they aren't into potential, upside, youth, or fancy 7 foot 3 point shooters who can walk and chew gum.  Red will roll over in his grave if we end up with a bender.

No question. Red wouldn't touch the Euromistake with a 10-foot pole.

Right, he would insist on drafting Joe Forte over him. Red was human.

Joe Forte is an improvement over a softer European Kelly Olynyk.

Bender is taller and longer than Olynyk and is also much faster/quicker and by all accounts, not soft. So a tall long quick not soft Kelly Olynyk is actually a pretty great player isn't he?

Not all accounts.  Bender is the walking embodiment of soft.  If you watch the Israeli league games it's hard not to pity him for the way he's bullied and manhandled.  I had to remind myself that he's 18 and technically an adult who is going to have to stand up for himself some day.

every report on his character and how he plays spits in the eye of the bolded statement above. say what you will about bender, lack or motor/effort/toughness are NOT what the reports say.

If someone can provide some examples of Bender's softness, or even a report by a reputed scout that indicates he's some kind of Kelly Olynk big tissue then fire away.
There is nothing to suggest Bender is soft or shys away from physicality.
The video evidence is strongly contrary to this-he actively seeks out contact and bodies up/boxes out with tenacity.

People are just making stuff up now to fit their pre conceived whote boy stereotypes and fears of the unknown.

Just watch the games from this year.  It's not rocket science.  The kid cannot play with grown men.  He can't be on the court when it matters.  He gets pushed around by everyone. The number of contested rebounds he won this year can be counted on your fingers, maybe on one hand.  He was not an impactful defensive player, even in garbage time.

He's a really solid 3 point shooter and he's not without skill.  Don't get me wrong.  But he is, without a doubt, soft.  He's a 7 footer that plays like he's 6-7.  He has poor rebounding instincts and gets abused in the post.  He's not "afraid", he's just unable to control space.  He has a narrow, weak base, physically speaking.  Just watch the film and count the times he's out of position or moved out of position by players much smaller than him.  That just isn't part of his game.

soft and physically weak are different things.

Soft is shying away from contact etc.

weak is being skinny and not strong and thus movable.

[bdo3272]

I fully expect another olowakandi, Bibby, traylor, lafrentz, Jamison, white chocolate draft sequence. Then somebody with a shred of basketball acumen takes the next paul pierce because they aren't into potential, upside, youth, or fancy 7 foot 3 point shooters who can walk and chew gum.  Red will roll over in his grave if we end up with a bender.

No question. Red wouldn't touch the Euromistake with a 10-foot pole.

Right, he would insist on drafting Joe Forte over him. Red was human.

Joe Forte is an improvement over a softer European Kelly Olynyk.

Bender is taller and longer than Olynyk and is also much faster/quicker and by all accounts, not soft. So a tall long quick not soft Kelly Olynyk is actually a pretty great player isn't he?

Not all accounts.  Bender is the walking embodiment of soft.  If you watch the Israeli league games it's hard not to pity him for the way he's bullied and manhandled.  I had to remind myself that he's 18 and technically an adult who is going to have to stand up for himself some day.

every report on his character and how he plays spits in the eye of the bolded statement above. say what you will about bender, lack or motor/effort/toughness are NOT what the reports say.

If someone can provide some examples of Bender's softness, or even a report by a reputed scout that indicates he's some kind of Kelly Olynk big tissue then fire away.
There is nothing to suggest Bender is soft or shys away from physicality.
The video evidence is strongly contrary to this-he actively seeks out contact and bodies up/boxes out with tenacity.

People are just making stuff up now to fit their pre conceived whote boy stereotypes and fears of the unknown.

"He is also careful. After witnessing his brother's injuries, Dragan rarely puts himself in harm's way on the court. He will not, for example, risk a midair collision if he can avoid it. "Of course, Ivan's experience has influenced me," Dragan said"

Source:  http://thelab.bleacherreport.com/the-next-porzingis/

[PickNRoll]

I fully expect another olowakandi, Bibby, traylor, lafrentz, Jamison, white chocolate draft sequence. Then somebody with a shred of basketball acumen takes the next paul pierce because they aren't into potential, upside, youth, or fancy 7 foot 3 point shooters who can walk and chew gum.  Red will roll over in his grave if we end up with a bender.

No question. Red wouldn't touch the Euromistake with a 10-foot pole.

Right, he would insist on drafting Joe Forte over him. Red was human.

Joe Forte is an improvement over a softer European Kelly Olynyk.

Bender is taller and longer than Olynyk and is also much faster/quicker and by all accounts, not soft. So a tall long quick not soft Kelly Olynyk is actually a pretty great player isn't he?

Not all accounts.  Bender is the walking embodiment of soft.  If you watch the Israeli league games it's hard not to pity him for the way he's bullied and manhandled.  I had to remind myself that he's 18 and technically an adult who is going to have to stand up for himself some day.

every report on his character and how he plays spits in the eye of the bolded statement above. say what you will about bender, lack or motor/effort/toughness are NOT what the reports say.

If someone can provide some examples of Bender's softness, or even a report by a reputed scout that indicates he's some kind of Kelly Olynk big tissue then fire away.
There is nothing to suggest Bender is soft or shys away from physicality.
The video evidence is strongly contrary to this-he actively seeks out contact and bodies up/boxes out with tenacity.

People are just making stuff up now to fit their pre conceived whote boy stereotypes and fears of the unknown.

Just watch the games from this year.  It's not rocket science.  The kid cannot play with grown men.  He can't be on the court when it matters.  He gets pushed around by everyone. The number of contested rebounds he won this year can be counted on your fingers, maybe on one hand.  He was not an impactful defensive player, even in garbage time.

He's a really solid 3 point shooter and he's not without skill.  Don't get me wrong.  But he is, without a doubt, soft.  He's a 7 footer that plays like he's 6-7.  He has poor rebounding instincts and gets abused in the post.  He's not "afraid", he's just unable to control space.  He has a narrow, weak base, physically speaking.  Just watch the film and count the times he's out of position or moved out of position by players much smaller than him.  That just isn't part of his game.

soft and physically weak are different things.

Soft is shying away from contact etc.

weak is being skinny and not strong and thus movable.

OK.  By your definition, I'd say he's more physically weak than "soft".

But there's another element that's hard to encapsulate.  He's rarely in position to fight for rebounds.  It's sort of the opposite of Dennis Rodman, if that makes sense. He has no "nose for the ball".  He floats around the court.  He's late to the rebound.  He's late to contest shots.  His effort is fine, but he's rarely impactful.  He tries.  I'm not knocking his effort.  He's Bargnani rather than Paul Milsap.  He's a wrestler or a soccer player who picked up basketball a year ago.