High Character vs Low Character Draft prospects

[alldaboston]

Does Simmons wanting to be drafted by the lakers to increase earning potential from shoe deals further count as "bad character?

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--ben-simmons-shifts-shoe-strategy-000608913.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma

Edit: looks like we got a specific thread about this.

[KG Living Legend]

I honestly think our locker room is strong enough to handle a rookie's "attitude". Find the best talent and we'll groom the character

 Couldn't disagree more. An NBA team is very intimate, especially with Brad would Love Chris's athletiscm but wouldn't draft him top 16.

We need talent. Would you not draft D. Cousins better than 5 or not at all. We can always trade promising rookies after a year if they show promise.

 Listen I take Simmons all day everyday and twice on Thursday, but now more than ever this team will take high quality,high character kids. Mark my words and watch the picks we do make.

[LooseCannon]

The character knock on Simmons is that he is a selfish stat-padder who doesn't care about winning and lacks competitive fire.  I think there should be a legitimate concern that he is a soft player who will shy away from contact in the NBA.

[crimson_stallion]

I think it depends on a lot of things.

1 - Exaclty how 'talented' is talented is the player?
If you have a guy with Lebron / Durant talent for example, you're going to take that guy no matter how questionable his attitude may be.  Lebron has a questionable attitude - there is no team in this league who wouldn't have him.  Durant has questionable toughness, and there's no team who wouldn't take him either.


2 - What is the nature of the character issues?
If the concern is a lack of motor / work ethic, then all that will limit is outright potential.  The player will probably still be very effective and productive, it just means the might not take that next level and become an all out superstar - they might just become an All-Star or fringe All-Star.  If the player has elite talent but lacks a bit of motor, you most likely take them anyway.  If they have really good talent and lack of motor, then you might still consider them - but just accept that they probably wont reach their potential.

If the concern is discipline (tendancy to not get along with people, tendency to get into fights, temper issues, no respect for authority, etc) then the risk is a lot higher.  You probably still take a gamble if the guy has elite / franchise player calibre talent.  Any less and you probably shy away, unless you have multiple picks and can afford to gamble.

Lack of toughness (both mental and physical) can be a big one, because guys who lack toughness may simply not make it in the NBA at all.   Lack of toughness can affect a player's ability to rebound, score at the basket, fight through screens, and even their ability to drive to the basket.  Guys who lack toughness can be a real red flag unless they have seriously elite talent (e.g. Durant) to get by on finesse alone.

It's rare to find guys who have high work ethic, high motor, respect for authority and toughness.  When you do you're pretty much sitting on a goldmine. That is, I think, why Ainge has always been hesitant to trade guys like Bradley and Crowder...and why guys like Amir Johnson can bee so valuable despite not being star talents.

If you look at this year's draft, the highest ranked prospects who meet all of those criteria are probably Hield and Dunn, followed by Poetlyl.  Which is part of the reason why I am so high on those three guys.

[alldaboston]

I honestly think our locker room is strong enough to handle a rookie's "attitude". Find the best talent and we'll groom the character

 Couldn't disagree more. An NBA team is very intimate, especially with Brad would Love Chris's athletiscm but wouldn't draft him top 16.

We need talent. Would you not draft D. Cousins better than 5 or not at all. We can always trade promising rookies after a year if they show promise.

 Listen I take Simmons all day everyday and twice on Thursday, but now more than ever this team will take high quality,high character kids. Mark my words and watch the picks we do make.

Yeah they will. But it could turn out to be the wrong choice. What good is character gonna do for you in a game 6 vs Atlanta? Compared to a talented player who maybe doesn't have the best character ever but is someone who can actually help out in that game 6 vs Atlanta.

[KG Living Legend]

 I think your most missing the point. I want my came, and eat it too. Guys like Ingram, Hield, Poeltl, Sabonis and Bender have both. That's what I want. Ingram, Hield and Sabonis are perfect fits.

[GetLucky]

I honestly think our locker room is strong enough to handle a rookie's "attitude". Find the best talent and we'll groom the character

 Couldn't disagree more. An NBA team is very intimate, especially with Brad would Love Chris's athletiscm but wouldn't draft him top 16.

We need talent. Would you not draft D. Cousins better than 5 or not at all. We can always trade promising rookies after a year if they show promise.

 Listen I take Simmons all day everyday and twice on Thursday, but now more than ever this team will take high quality,high character kids. Mark my words and watch the picks we do make.

Yeah they will. But it could turn out to be the wrong choice. What good is character gonna do for you in a game 6 vs Atlanta? Compared to a talented player who maybe doesn't have the best character ever but is someone who can actually help out in that game 6 vs Atlanta.

This is actually an interesting situation. Normally, the "low-character" guys are the ones that are too competitive, to the point of being conceited, selfish on offense, or borderline maniacal with physical play. Simmons, on the other hand, is being labeled a "low-character" guy for being too soft. Skipping workouts, trying to work his way to the biggest market, get the easiest coach, and achieve the most fame with the least amount of effort are all accusations being lobbed at Simmons right now. Add that to his supposed lack of coach-ability, tendency to appear like he's "coasting" during games, and his prima-donna reputation on the Australian national team, and you have an interesting guy.

I just find the context you are using very interesting. You act like the "low character" accusations being lobbed at Simmons are of the "if we could only get him to harness his aggressiveness and play smarter, he could be a cold-hearted, stone-cold killer in big games" variety, whereas they are really the "if he would get off the couch, stop admiring himself, and work on his game a lot, he could be special" type.

EDIT: For that reason, I think Simmons would work in Boston. I believe the example set by guys like Avery, Marcus, Jae, Stevens, and others is contagious to rookies.

[crimson_stallion]

The character knock on Simmons is that he is a selfish stat-padder who doesn't care about winning and lacks competitive fire.  I think there should be a legitimate concern that he is a soft player who will shy away from contact in the NBA.

From everything I've read, I have not really heard a single complaint about Simmons being one to shy away from contact.  If anything I've read that he embraces and seeks out contact.  Everything I've seen indicates that he's happy to bang all day long. 

 I think your most missing the point. I want my came, and eat it too. Guys like Ingram, Hield, Poeltl, Sabonis and Bender have both. That's what I want. Ingram, Hield and Sabonis are perfect fits.

[LooseCannon]

The character knock on Simmons is that he is a selfish stat-padder who doesn't care about winning and lacks competitive fire.  I think there should be a legitimate concern that he is a soft player who will shy away from contact in the NBA.

From everything I've read, I have not really heard a single complaint about Simmons being one to shy away from contact.  If anything I've read that he embraces and seeks out contact.  Everything I've seen indicates that he's happy to bang all day long. 

I guess you were too lazy to click on the link in my post, which includes the sentence: "Simmons has displayed an apathy for defense, contact and delivering winning plays in crucial moments."

[KG Living Legend]

 I buy the last statement the most, just don't see the fire in him in critical moments, he may have the Jeff Green Genome.

 Although that team was so bad. God I wish he went to a real school. Still would take him #1 overall.

[crimson_stallion]

The character knock on Simmons is that he is a selfish stat-padder who doesn't care about winning and lacks competitive fire.  I think there should be a legitimate concern that he is a soft player who will shy away from contact in the NBA.

Here are the comments on nbadraft.net for both players that relate to character:


Simmons - NBADraft.net Pros

"Highly unselfish, team oriented player ... A supreme competitor and a proven winner, having captured three national high school championships (in three seasons) ... Attitude/character is by all accounts one of his greatest assets, as he is praised by many for being "a better person than player"

"Has tremendous strength, showing the ability to play right through contact and finish ... An elite level rebounder showing the grit and desire to grab every rebound in his area, and put in work on the offensive glass"

"He has the desire and work ethic to become a gym rat, and his shooting should improve considerably over time"

"He is a hardworking kid with the type of weaknesses, namely shooting, that can be improved upon ... Well spoken, confident kid who apparently has no trouble being a vocal leader, strong communicator ... Level headed, mature kid who seems to battle through adversity with ease, does not lose his cool or get down when things get challenging ... "

"The scary part is at only 19, he has already proven himself in one-on-one battles with the likes of Anthony Davis and James Harden (At Nike Academy), and one has to wonder just how much better he can become"


Simmons - NBADraft.net Cons

"Can have scoring droughts in games related to both his confidence in his shot, and unselfishness ."


Ingram - NBADraft.net Pros
"Has a high basketball IQ, good attention to detail ... "

Ingram - NBADraft.net Cons
"Not a strong defender yet ... Doesn't possess great lateral quickness ... Often out of place on the defensive end ... His footwork when defending on the ball is subpar"

"Not an overly explosive athlete ... While he plays smoothly, can seem to be playing too slow at times or even come across as lazy ... Can develop into a better playmaker ... A shy, low key kid, should look to develop into more of a vocal leader ..."


Simmons - DraftExpress Cons

- "Not very competitive defensively - takes plays off"
- "Questions about his character and overall approach"


Ingram - DraftExpress Cons

- "Extremely talented but looks a bit too lackadaisical on the floor at times"
- "Overall effort and energy come and go, especially on the defensive end"
-"Does he have the mentality of a #1 option and top draft pick?"

Everybody throws criticism at Simmons for his attitude/character concerns, but people seem to be happy to completely ignore Ingram's character concerns and give him a free pass.  Doesn't sound to me like his character is any better than Simmons at all.

It's not until you get down to Hield and Dunn (Bender, if you like him) that you really can step back and say "those are pretty high character guys". 

[alldaboston]

The character knock on Simmons is that he is a selfish stat-padder who doesn't care about winning and lacks competitive fire.  I think there should be a legitimate concern that he is a soft player who will shy away from contact in the NBA.

I like the comp the guy in the link makes.

hes literally rondo in my opinion. stat padder. doesnt always try. doesnt always have the drive. has the talent to be elite, but does he truly want it?

i actually said something similar a few months ago, but it got hidden within a bigger post and never really got reaction.

[Greyman]

When Ben Simmons was very young he played Rugby League and later Australian Rules Football. He will have no problem with contact. He played Rugby League in the Newcastle area of New South Wales and Australian Rules in Melbourne. That may not mean much to those who don't know but he is playing in two of the toughest and most competitive breeding grounds for those sports. He excelled at both sports.

To a local Australian involved in Rugby League and knowing Aussie Rules football, this says: competitive, tough, valuing mate ship and respecting hard work.

I don't know what has happened to him in the USA, but if he still holds those values he will be fine.

[crimson_stallion]

The character knock on Simmons is that he is a selfish stat-padder who doesn't care about winning and lacks competitive fire.  I think there should be a legitimate concern that he is a soft player who will shy away from contact in the NBA.

I like the comp the guy in the link makes.

hes literally rondo in my opinion. stat padder. doesnt always try. doesnt always have the drive. has the talent to be elite, but does he truly want it?

i actually said something similar a few months ago, but it got hidden within a bigger post and never really got reaction.

Rondo was a top 5 PG in the league for a LONG time.  He's one of the NBA's all time leaders in triple doubles, was a perennial All-Star through the big 3 era, and he won us a LOT of playoff games with his often dominant play.

Rondo, in his prime, was a talent well worthy of a top 2 pick, so if Simmons' floor is that of a 6'10" / 240 pound Rajon Rondo, then that would be a pretty darn good worst-case scenario to be completely honest. 

[crimson_stallion]

When Ben Simmons was very young he played Rugby League and later Australian Rules Football. He will have no problem with contact. He played Rugby League in the Newcastle area of New South Wales and Australian Rules in Melbourne. That may not mean much to those who don't know but he is playing in two of the toughest and most competitive breeding grounds for those sports. He excelled at both sports.

To a local Australian involved in Rugby League and knowing Aussie Rules football, this says: competitive, tough, valuing mate ship and respecting hard work.

I don't know what has happened to him in the USA, but if he still holds those values he will be fine.

To clarify for those who are not familiar with Australian Rugby League football, think of it as NFL with no helmets and no padding.  All they wear is shorts and a t-shirt. 

I don't watch it much (I'm not a huge fan of the sport) but when I have I've seen guys coming out with concussions, broken noses, busted cheek bones - you name it. It's not for the faint of heart.