Author Topic: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016  (Read 3460 times)

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Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« on: May 16, 2016, 10:32:44 AM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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 The last couple of years, I posted about a guy who uses statistical analysis to try to predict a players future success in the NBA based on their athletic testing. www.hardwoordparoxysm.com
One of the things I always forget to include is that he only really looks at true NBA talent, or the top 30-40 players on big boards. So, if a guy tests really well, but isn't considered by most scouts to be draftable, they are considered outliers.

Obviously, you don't select a player based on athleticism alone, but it can be a tool to help evaluate.

Point Guards

According to his findings, there is a strong rate of success when teams draft an upperclassman point guard who got at least an 11 seconds on the agility time and a 3.2 on the 3/4 court run.

Wade Baldwin, Melo Trimble, and Tyler Ullis all successfully beat those two times. Baldwin showed exceptionally well in the combine, but is he a true point guard? Tremble struggled shooting the ball (from what I hear) and that is dropping his stock maybe out of the first round. While Ullis measured better than expected, he is still short. However, all three guys look legit. I also think Dunn would have probably beat those times.
Shooting Guards

According to his findings, no player has ever succeeded in the NBA as a shooting guard with an agility time above 11.2, regardless of their other athletic scores. He said that he thinks the reason is that you have to be at least that agile to play defense in the NBA. No legit prospects scored over that.

Combined scores of at least a 6'9'' wingspan, 30'' no step vert, and 35'' step vert normally indicated star potential in shooting guards. Bembry was the only legit prospect with that athleticism, although I think more players are fudging their vertical numbers by lowering their standing reach. Bembry looks legit.

 Small Forwards

According to Petrick, there is no direct correlation between athletic testing and success in the NBA for small forwards. However, as a general rule, taller players have a higher probability of success. Obviously Ingram and Simmons get a bump here, but Chriss (depending on his NBA position) is also interesting.
Power Forwards

The only correlation he found for power forwards (other than that strength helps rebounding) is that the higher no step and max verticals indicate better potential for defense. This is good news for Chriss.

Centers

The best correlation he found for center success in the NBA was speed. The faster the center, the better the chance he has to succeed. He also found that centers who combine at least a 3.3 3/4 court speed and 9'2'' standing reach almost always have success in the NBA, with the potential for stardom. Damien Jones got the 3.2, but had a dissapointing 8'11'' standing reach (maybe to boost his vertical numbers?). Thon Maker had a 9'2.5'' standing reach and a 3.33 speed.

Of the guys who actually participated, Baldwin, Ullis, Chriss and Bembry are the only guys who are guys who met their positions success metrics. I need to research more on all these guys, but they could be the four gems of this draft. In my opinion, picks 3-12 are all pretty interchangeable, depending on team fit, need, and development. All four of those guys, but especially Baldwin, Chriss, and Bembry look like they have potential to be NBA starters/fringe all-stars if things break right. If they drop to us at 16, they could be the best value of the draft.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 01:04:24 PM by DefenseWinsChamps »

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2016, 11:02:48 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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Not sure I believe it or not but one observation I have in regards to using a players Vert in any analysis. Most of the players verts are a total farce. More often we are seeing players dog their standing reach in order to help their verts. Just go and look at all the guy with strangely low standing reaches.

I personally think more focus should be placed on max vertical reach. This year Maker posted a 12'3" meaning in a real basketball situation like running down the court and going up for an alley-oop or a put back he can play 2'3" above the rim. This is on pare with other elite athletic centers like Mcgee and D Howard.
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Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2016, 11:06:40 AM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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Didn't Maker technically hit the standards also?
#JKJB

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2016, 11:08:36 AM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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Not sure I believe it or not but one observation I have in regards to using a players Vert in any analysis. Most of the players verts are a total farce. More often we are seeing players dog their standing reach in order to help their verts. Just go and look at all the guy with strangely low standing reaches.

I personally think more focus should be placed on max vertical reach. This year Maker posted a 12'3" meaning in a real basketball situation like running down the court and going up for an alley-oop or a put back he can play 2'3" above the rim. This is on pare with other elite athletic centers like Mcgee and D Howard.

Lets hope he is more Howard than McGee lol. Unless he wants his own section on Shaqtin a fool. In all seriousness it amazes me Javale was never a lot better. He was one of the most freaky physical specimens I've ever seen.
#JKJB

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2016, 11:09:32 AM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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Didn't Maker technically hit the standards also?

For centers (I count Maker as more of a skinny center) he didn't reach the speed requirements. If you count him as a PF, he hits the vert requirements.

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2016, 11:15:29 AM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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Didn't Maker technically hit the standards also?

For centers (I count Maker as more of a skinny center) he didn't reach the speed requirements. If you count him as a PF, he hits the vert requirements.

Oops my bad, I read the 3.33 as 3.3 aka exactly at the barrier. My bad lol.

Kid can fly though. If he could ever put on a little muscle, he has a cheap version of KG written all over him. (Not nearly as good, but great athlete, super intense, and in this kids case at least mildly decent at shooting and dribbling)
#JKJB

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2016, 11:31:11 AM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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Didn't Maker technically hit the standards also?

For centers (I count Maker as more of a skinny center) he didn't reach the speed requirements. If you count him as a PF, he hits the vert requirements.

Oops my bad, I read the 3.33 as 3.3 aka exactly at the barrier. My bad lol.

Kid can fly though. If he could ever put on a little muscle, he has a cheap version of KG written all over him. (Not nearly as good, but great athlete, super intense, and in this kids case at least mildly decent at shooting and dribbling)

I edited it to correct it. My bad!

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 11:42:12 AM »

Offline sofutomygaha

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The last couple of years, I posted about a guy who uses statistical analysis to try to predict a players future success in the NBA based on their athletic testing. www.hardwoordparoxymsm.com


http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2016, 01:04:11 PM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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The last couple of years, I posted about a guy who uses statistical analysis to try to predict a players future success in the NBA based on their athletic testing. www.hardwoordparoxymsm.com


http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/

Thanks. I edited that!

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2016, 03:06:49 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Do you have a link to the actual article?

I'm a little confused by some of the assertions derived from it.

According to your 'speed threshold' for centers, they need to post a 3/4 court sprint in under 3.3 seconds.   But a quick perusal of the DraftExpress database of just top-15 draft picks who were measured since 2003 shows:

Patrick O'Bryant  3.63
Kelly Olynyk   3.59
Hasheem Thabeet  3.57
Brook Lopez  3.57
Eric Williams  3.56
DeMarcus Cousins  3.55
Hilton Armstrong  3.53
Andrew Bogut  3.51
Spencer Hawes  3.51
Joakim Noah   3.47
Lamarcus Aldridge 3.43
Meyers Leonard  3.41
Steven Adams  3.40
Andre Drummond 3.39
Saer Sene   3.38
Channing Frey 3.38
Chris Kaman   3.37
Al Horford  3.37
Karl Anthony Towns 3.36
Cole Aldrich  3.35
Greg Monroe  3.35
Eric Williams 3.35
Chris Bosh  3.30
Ekpe Udoh  3.29
Al Jefferson 3.29
Nick Collison  3.28
Greg Oden    3.27
Larry Sanders  3.27
Enes Kanter  3.26
Derrick Favors  3.25
Kevin Love 3.22
Emeka Okafor 3.15
Cody Zeller   3.15
Dwight Howard 3.14

This is admittedly a different sample, and maybe this set were taken higher in the draft based on skill and length over lower draft picks, so that outweighs the 'speed' requirement.

But just looking at it, I'm not seeing a very compelling requirement that a center absolutely has to break the 3.3s threshold.  There are some very good names on both sides of that line.
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Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2016, 04:24:47 PM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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Do you have a link to the actual article?

I'm a little confused by some of the assertions derived from it.

According to your 'speed threshold' for centers, they need to post a 3/4 court sprint in under 3.3 seconds.   But a quick perusal of the DraftExpress database of just top-15 draft picks who were measured since 2003 shows:

Patrick O'Bryant  3.63
Kelly Olynyk   3.59
Hasheem Thabeet  3.57
Brook Lopez  3.57
Eric Williams  3.56
DeMarcus Cousins  3.55
Hilton Armstrong  3.53
Andrew Bogut  3.51
Spencer Hawes  3.51
Joakim Noah   3.47
Lamarcus Aldridge 3.43
Meyers Leonard  3.41
Steven Adams  3.40
Andre Drummond 3.39
Saer Sene   3.38
Channing Frey 3.38
Chris Kaman   3.37
Al Horford  3.37
Karl Anthony Towns 3.36
Cole Aldrich  3.35
Greg Monroe  3.35
Eric Williams 3.35
Chris Bosh  3.30
Ekpe Udoh  3.29
Al Jefferson 3.29
Nick Collison  3.28
Greg Oden    3.27
Larry Sanders  3.27
Enes Kanter  3.26
Derrick Favors  3.25
Kevin Love 3.22
Emeka Okafor 3.15
Cody Zeller   3.15
Dwight Howard 3.14

This is admittedly a different sample, and maybe this set were taken higher in the draft based on skill and length over lower draft picks, so that outweighs the 'speed' requirement.

But just looking at it, I'm not seeing a very compelling requirement that a center absolutely has to break the 3.3s threshold.  There are some very good names on both sides of that line.


So, there is no hardfast correlation, but this guy was trying to find some kind of athleticism that would correlate to success in the NBA. In his opinion, the faster the center, the more likely they were to succeed (not supported by numbers).

But for centers, he found that breaking the 3.3 and having a 9'2'' reach was mostly connected to success in the NBA>

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2016, 04:43:03 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Do you have a link to the actual article?

I'm a little confused by some of the assertions derived from it.

According to your 'speed threshold' for centers, they need to post a 3/4 court sprint in under 3.3 seconds.   But a quick perusal of the DraftExpress database of just top-15 draft picks who were measured since 2003 shows:

Patrick O'Bryant  3.63
Kelly Olynyk   3.59
Hasheem Thabeet  3.57
Brook Lopez  3.57
Eric Williams  3.56
DeMarcus Cousins  3.55
Hilton Armstrong  3.53
Andrew Bogut  3.51
Spencer Hawes  3.51
Joakim Noah   3.47
Lamarcus Aldridge 3.43
Meyers Leonard  3.41
Steven Adams  3.40
Andre Drummond 3.39
Saer Sene   3.38
Channing Frey 3.38
Chris Kaman   3.37
Al Horford  3.37
Karl Anthony Towns 3.36
Cole Aldrich  3.35
Greg Monroe  3.35
Eric Williams 3.35
Chris Bosh  3.30
Ekpe Udoh  3.29
Al Jefferson 3.29
Nick Collison  3.28
Greg Oden    3.27
Larry Sanders  3.27
Enes Kanter  3.26
Derrick Favors  3.25
Kevin Love 3.22
Emeka Okafor 3.15
Cody Zeller   3.15
Dwight Howard 3.14

This is admittedly a different sample, and maybe this set were taken higher in the draft based on skill and length over lower draft picks, so that outweighs the 'speed' requirement.

But just looking at it, I'm not seeing a very compelling requirement that a center absolutely has to break the 3.3s threshold.  There are some very good names on both sides of that line.


So, there is no hardfast correlation, but this guy was trying to find some kind of athleticism that would correlate to success in the NBA. In his opinion, the faster the center, the more likely they were to succeed (not supported by numbers).

But for centers, he found that breaking the 3.3 and having a 9'2'' reach was mostly connected to success in the NBA>

Again, do you have a link to the actual article?  Who was the author?

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2016, 06:01:46 PM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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His name is Kevin Hetrick. He had a series of articles a few years ago. Here is the first. You can find the others from there.

http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012/11/16/kevins-summer-project-part-1/

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2016, 07:38:43 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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It is interesting thanks for posting, I do not think it amounts to much but I took a solid look.  Basketball is one sport where the money stuff does not work as well.

Larry Bird and Curry did not have the metric but both were top players because of their skill levels.

Re: Measurement and Athleticism Testing Predictor 2016
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 12:52:55 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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His name is Kevin Hetrick. He had a series of articles a few years ago. Here is the first. You can find the others from there.

http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012/11/16/kevins-summer-project-part-1/

Thanks!
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