Best scenario for Simmons. Celtics winning lottery.

[CoachBo]

At the end of the day, if we can't trade the pick for a star, I think everyone generally agrees that we take Ingram or Simmons at #2.
There's debate about who we'd pick #1 (I'm in the Simmons camp but I LOVE Ingram too).

Do most of those who are worried about Simmon's faults/flaws believe we should take him #2 or we should just avoid him altogether?

No, I'd take Simmons at 2. He just doesn't measure up - at all - to Ingram. I detest players who defer on-court, and that was Simmons at LSU.

Easy decision for me. Ingram at 1. Simmons at 2.

[alldaboston]

At the end of the day, if we can't trade the pick for a star, I think everyone generally agrees that we take Ingram or Simmons at #2.
There's debate about who we'd pick #1 (I'm in the Simmons camp but I LOVE Ingram too).

Do most of those who are worried about Simmon's faults/flaws believe we should take him #2 or we should just avoid him altogether?

You definitely take Simmons at 2. You take whoever is left from the two of them (Ingram and Simmons) at 2. No way we let them slide to 3. Ugh. That'd be horrid if it happened.

[crimson_stallion]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm also entitled to find your comparison wildly off-base. Magic is almost universally seen as a top-five player of all-time. I think it does a real disservice to college freshman to saddle them with unrealistic expectations.

Simmons will be a huge success if he develops into the next Blake Griffin. He'd have to go two or three steps beyond that to be in the conversation with Magic.

I just don't understand why you are getting so defensive.

You are reacting as if I am saying "Simmons is going to be Magic Johnson 2.0".  I'm not saying that at all. 

What I'm saying is that Simmons' has a freakish set of skills and physical attributes that compare very well to what Magic and Lebron James (who will go down in history as all time greats) had when they came into the league.

Does that mean that Simmons is going to become as good as Magic and Lebron?  No, of course it doesn't.  To suggest such thing at this point in time would be silly.  All it means is that, if history is anything to go off, somebody with Simmons' skill/talent set is most likely going to become a really, really good NBA player.

So far the LEAST flattering comparison to Simmons that I have seen is Lamar Odom.  In his prime Lamar Odom was a 17/10/4 guy, so if that is the worst player you can find who has a Simmons-like skill set, then that is a pretty darn good floor.

So I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that Simmons has a floor or Lamar Odom, and a ceiling of Magic.

You will seemingly get offended by me listing Magic as his ceiling, citing the fact that Magic is an all-time great and all the rest of it.  But by saying Magic is his ceiling, I'm not predicting that Simmons will become as good as Magic.

What I am saying is that the absolute best case scenario for Simmons career is that he becomes as good as Magic.  In other words, I am saying that there is some (even if it is extremely, extremely small) possibility that he could become that good. 

By you saying my comparison is ridiculous, you are essentially claiming that it is absolutely impossible, and that there is absolutely no chance at all (not even the slightest possibility) that Simmons could become that good.

You say I am the one doing a disservice to Simmons by setting expectations too high.  Isn't it you who is doing him the disservice by trying to suggest he has no hope of ever becoming an all-time great on that level?

You say it is I who is being unrealistic for saying he could one day become that, given that I haven't seen him play a day in the league.  Isn't it you that is being unrealistic by suggesting that it is not at all possible that he could become that, when you also haven't seen him play a day in the league? 

See, I'm not the one dealing in absolutes here.  I'm not saying (in black or white) that Simmons WILL become that good.  I'm just saying he might.  I'm just saying that it's possible. 

You are the one dealing in absolutes here because you are the one saying that he won't and that he can't.  To the point where you are practically ridiculing the fact that I even suggest the possibility.

How do you know that Simmons will not ever become that good?  Have you seen the future?

I completely understand if you say "I don't believe he has the potential to become that good".  That's fine.  But you aren't saying that.  You are practically mocking me for even suggesting that it's possible. 

You talk about it as if it is insulting or dishonourable to compare an upcoming talent to an all-time great.  Yet at some point in their careers all of these all-time greats WERE upcoming talents. 

When Magic left college to come to the NBA, if you were there, you probably would have been utterly offended if somebody suggested that this draftee had the talent to one day be as good as Oscar Robinson. 

When Michael Jordan left college and came to the NBA, you probably would have been insulted if somebody suggested that this young kid had the talent to one day be as good as Dr J.

The fact of the matter is that everybody starts here.  Even the all-time greats one day started off as young kids with uncertain futures.  They all would have had their cult followers who swore they would be great, and they all would have had their hardcore critics who insisted they didn't have what it takes.

There is absolutely no guarantee that Simmons will become as good as guys like Magic or Lebron.  I would never suggest that he will be.  All I'm saying is that this kid as a very high floor, and an even higher ceiling, and that the sky is pretty much the limit when it comes to how good he could potentially become if he developed a solid jumper and the right attitude.

People go ga-ga over Ingram and insist he is so far above Simmons, and it makes me laugh.  Simmons is so much more TALENTED then Ingram that it isn't even funny.  Ingram is just a long, athletic kid who has a pretty good jumper.  He's pretty good at a few other things too, but he's not really elite at anything.  Even as a shooter, I wouldn't consider him elite - just good.  Defensively once again he is not elite - he's just solid with the potential to become good.  With Ingram everything is about 'potential'.  People complain about Simmons not being aggressive or tough enough, but Ingram has that exact same character flaw - people just ignore it for some reason.

In fact I think Hield might be a better prospect then Ingram.  He's a better shooter and far better scorer then Ingram.  He's probably just as good a passer and ball handler as Ingram.  He's a similarly good rebounder (relative to his position).   He has all the tools to be come a good defensive player.  At just under 6'5" / 215 pounds and with a 6'8" wingspan, he has very good size for an NBA SG.  In terms of intangibles Hield actually has a bigger heart, higher motor and better work ethic then either Simons or Ingram.  Really the only downside for Hield is his age - at 22 years old he is obviously on the older side for a rookie...but I think he might be the most NBA ready player in this draft, and even at his age I think he has All-Star written all over him.

Honestly, I like all three of Simmons / Ingram / Hield and I wouldn't complain if we ended up with either of those three guys.  But my fear with Ingram is his body.  There is skinny, and then there is Ingram skinny.  This guy is on a whole other level of thin, and he almost makes RJ Hunter look muscular.  His ability to become a star will be more or less completely dependant on his ability to add strength to his frame.  I'm sure he'll be ale to do that, but if he can't it is going to be a problem. Right now he is a teenager with a kids body, while Simmons is a teenager with a man's body. 

[crimson_stallion]

At the end of the day, if we can't trade the pick for a star, I think everyone generally agrees that we take Ingram or Simmons at #2.
There's debate about who we'd pick #1 (I'm in the Simmons camp but I LOVE Ingram too).

Do most of those who are worried about Simmon's faults/flaws believe we should take him #2 or we should just avoid him altogether?

You definitely take Simmons at 2. You take whoever is left from the two of them (Ingram and Simmons) at 2. No way we let them slide to 3. Ugh. That'd be horrid if it happened.

Agreed.

Both Simmons and Ingram have sky high potential.  They might be the highest upside prospects we have seen since Lebron James - I'm not even sure Anthony Davis or Karl-Anthony Towns had as much upside coming out of college as those guys have.  I think that both guys are skilled enough that the risk is fairly low too - they both are pretty high floors. I doubt you would bother looking at anybody else in that range.

It's once you get to #3 and on that it gets tricker.  Personally, I think that Hield is easily the next best player after Simmons and Ingram - however his age potentially limits his upside a little, since guys like Simmons/Ingram can spend 3-4 years in the league before they get to the age that Hield is now.  Regarless of the age argument though, Hield is a special talent. 

I think I'd still take him at #3 - especially on a team like the Celtics, who are a playoff team in need of immediate help (rather than a team like Philly or LA who can afford to wait for years for a guy to develop). 

I'm not a big fan of Bender.  I feel like a lot of teams will feel the same way, and I feel like he is the most likely guy to take a huge slip (like Winslow did last year).  I could see him surprising and sliding down as far as #4 or #6.

[walker834]

The issue I see with judging guys from college is it doesn't necessarily take into account their ceiling.   Both Simmons and Ingram have a lot of potential but their style of play is what it is. The general consensus here is Ingram and Simmons, but the general consensus a lot of the time goes with what the naked eye can see and doesn't factor in everything.  Ainge also isn't your typical GM.  I was just watching Ingram and he looks really good shooting the ball to me.  He also will take it in the lane and will finger roll it and has an assortment of moves.  He's a good isolation scorer. He has all the shots. He's probably a more sure thing than Simmons because what you see is what you get.  I don't see Pierce with him though.  Crowder is more that because of his size.  Pairing Ingram with Crowder would be interesting though.    I watch Bender and his upside still seems greater to me. He also isn't far behind these guys in his development from what I've seen. He's a year younger. I've watched all 3  a lot.  Simmons is a guy who is going to dominate the ball in ways.  We have Isaiah, Smart and Turner right now.  Smart is no sure thing here long term but I like what he brings and he is going to develop as a ball handler.  Simmons could replace Turner, but he is going to be an allstar starting quality player.  I'm all for it if Stevens and Ainge want to build that way.  I think Bender can do so many other things though, and people are underestimating him here.

Ingram is a SF and would pair with Crowder.  He is solely a SF though by my estimation.  It really comes down to preference because I think all 3 are talented.  So is Hield but he's a sg. It's really apples and oranges. They are all good.

I don't think I draft a guy just because he played college for 1 year and is a year older or whatever. They all have different skill sets and ceilings.

I feel like we need length.  That's not set in stone. Ainge could opt for speed.  We need a star player primarily.  We have enough guards.  If they are all on the same playing field I still take Bender. Plus just from watching him I think he has higher upside.  He's just a year younger.

Simmons to me is a stud and the stud of this draft on paper coming out.  He's going to rebound and score and take it to the hoop and make amazing finishes.  He's a choice though. There are other options in this draft.

I'd be happy with any of those 4 and considering the lowest we can pick is 6 we are going to get one of them most likely.  I'd be happy with jaylen brown too to be honest.  Even Sabonis isn't a bad pick.  I think the top 10 is pretty solid throughout although there are guys who stand out.

I'm hoping we get a big time stud player though and the best one obviously. I dont know who that is for sure right now but I'd bet it's one of Hield, Simmons, Bender or Ingram.  Those are my top 4 for sure and I don't see that changing either unless thon maker somehow rises ridiculously or something which I don't see happening at all.

[crimson_stallion]

The issue I see with judging guys from college is it doesn't necessarily take into account their ceiling.   Both Simmons and Ingram have a lot of potential but their style of play is what it is. The general consensus here is Ingram and Simmons, but the general consensus a lot of the time goes with what the naked eye can see and doesn't factor in everything.  Ainge also isn't your typical GM.  I was just watching Ingram and he looks really good shooting the ball to me.  He also will take it in the lane and will finger roll it and has an assortment of moves.  He's a good isolation scorer. He has all the shots. He's probably a more sure thing than Simmons because what you see is what you get.  I don't see Pierce with him though.  Crowder is more that because of his size.  Pairing Ingram with Crowder would be interesting though.    I watch Bender and his upside still seems greater to me. He also isn't far behind these guys in his development from what I've seen. He's a year younger. I've watched all 3  a lot.  Simmons is a guy who is going to dominate the ball in ways.  We have Isaiah, Smart and Turner right now.  Smart is no sure thing here long term but I like what he brings and he is going to develop as a ball handler.  Simmons could replace Turner, but he is going to be an allstar starting quality player.  I'm all for it if Stevens and Ainge want to build that way.  I think Bender can do so many other things though, and people are underestimating him here.

Ingram is a SF and would pair with Crowder.  He is solely a SF though by my estimation.  It really comes down to preference because I think all 3 are talented.  So is Hield but he's a sg. It's really apples and oranges. They are all good.

I don't think I draft a guy just because he played college for 1 year and is a year older or whatever. They all have different skill sets and ceilings.

I feel like we need length.  That's not set in stone. Ainge could opt for speed.  We need a star player primarily.  We have enough guards.  If they are all on the same playing field I still take Bender. Plus just from watching him I think he has higher upside.  He's just a year younger.

Simmons to me is a stud and the stud of this draft on paper coming out.  He's going to rebound and score and take it to the hoop and make amazing finishes.  He's a choice though. There are other options in this draft.

I'd be happy with any of those 4 and considering the lowest we can pick is 6 we are going to get one of them most likely.  I'd be happy with jaylen brown too to be honest.  Even Sabonis isn't a bad pick.  I think the top 10 is pretty solid throughout although there are guys who stand out.

I'm hoping we get a big time stud player though and the best one obviously. I dont know who that is for sure right now but I'd bet it's one of Hield, Simmons, Bender or Ingram.  Those are my top 4 for sure and I don't see that changing either unless thon maker somehow rises ridiculously or something which I don't see happening at all.

I understand your points, makes a lot of sense. 

What is it, specifically, that you see in Bender though?

I'm curious because it sounds like you have seen him play a lot, while I have only really read a bunch of scouting reports, seen some highlight footage, etc.  There's very little information out there about him and a very small sample size of data, and that makes it really difficult to make a call on his potential.  I guess he reminds me a bit of Dante Exum in that regard. 

What is it that you see in Bender that makes you so high on him?  What type of player do you see him developing into at the NBA level, and what areas of the game do you see him making a major impact in?

I see his age as an obvious strong point, and there is obviously the fact that he moves so well for a 7 footer which is another big strong point.   

I've been watching more footage of him today and I guess I can see some of that potential there, I'm just not sure he has all out superstar potential - I don't see him having any one dominant skill.  I can see Simmons, Ingram and Hield becoming elite scorers and all out superstars - with Bender I see him becoming more of a really good all-rounder.  Kind of a bit like a Marc Gasol type.  Guy who doesn't put up spectacular numbers, but has a really big impact on games.

We definitely need size and I can see Bender being a good fit for Boston with his ability to block shots, defend multiple positions, pass the ball and hit outside shots.  Just not sure if he'll ever be a star.

I guess at the end of the day, we really can't go wrong - Simmons, Ingram, Bender or Hield would all be really nice additions, and they would all offer this team something that we are in need of.

If we fall to 5th (which doesn't seem likely, but is still very possible) then it is a bit of a drop off in talent I think...but I guess there are still some nice players available. 

[walker834]

The issue I see with judging guys from college is it doesn't necessarily take into account their ceiling.   Both Simmons and Ingram have a lot of potential but their style of play is what it is. The general consensus here is Ingram and Simmons, but the general consensus a lot of the time goes with what the naked eye can see and doesn't factor in everything.  Ainge also isn't your typical GM.  I was just watching Ingram and he looks really good shooting the ball to me.  He also will take it in the lane and will finger roll it and has an assortment of moves.  He's a good isolation scorer. He has all the shots. He's probably a more sure thing than Simmons because what you see is what you get.  I don't see Pierce with him though.  Crowder is more that because of his size.  Pairing Ingram with Crowder would be interesting though.    I watch Bender and his upside still seems greater to me. He also isn't far behind these guys in his development from what I've seen. He's a year younger. I've watched all 3  a lot.  Simmons is a guy who is going to dominate the ball in ways.  We have Isaiah, Smart and Turner right now.  Smart is no sure thing here long term but I like what he brings and he is going to develop as a ball handler.  Simmons could replace Turner, but he is going to be an allstar starting quality player.  I'm all for it if Stevens and Ainge want to build that way.  I think Bender can do so many other things though, and people are underestimating him here.

Ingram is a SF and would pair with Crowder.  He is solely a SF though by my estimation.  It really comes down to preference because I think all 3 are talented.  So is Hield but he's a sg. It's really apples and oranges. They are all good.

I don't think I draft a guy just because he played college for 1 year and is a year older or whatever. They all have different skill sets and ceilings.

I feel like we need length.  That's not set in stone. Ainge could opt for speed.  We need a star player primarily.  We have enough guards.  If they are all on the same playing field I still take Bender. Plus just from watching him I think he has higher upside.  He's just a year younger.

Simmons to me is a stud and the stud of this draft on paper coming out.  He's going to rebound and score and take it to the hoop and make amazing finishes.  He's a choice though. There are other options in this draft.

I'd be happy with any of those 4 and considering the lowest we can pick is 6 we are going to get one of them most likely.  I'd be happy with jaylen brown too to be honest.  Even Sabonis isn't a bad pick.  I think the top 10 is pretty solid throughout although there are guys who stand out.

I'm hoping we get a big time stud player though and the best one obviously. I dont know who that is for sure right now but I'd bet it's one of Hield, Simmons, Bender or Ingram.  Those are my top 4 for sure and I don't see that changing either unless thon maker somehow rises ridiculously or something which I don't see happening at all.

I understand your points, makes a lot of sense. 

What is it, specifically, that you see in Bender though?

I'm curious because it sounds like you have seen him play a lot, while I have only really read a bunch of scouting reports, seen some highlight footage, etc.  There's very little information out there about him and a very small sample size of data, and that makes it really difficult to make a call on his potential.  I guess he reminds me a bit of Dante Exum in that regard. 

What is it that you see in Bender that makes you so high on him?  What type of player do you see him developing into at the NBA level, and what areas of the game do you see him making a major impact in?

I see his age as an obvious strong point, and there is obviously the fact that he moves so well for a 7 footer which is another big strong point.   

I've been watching more footage of him today and I guess I can see some of that potential there, I'm just not sure he has all out superstar potential - I don't see him having any one dominant skill.  I can see Simmons, Ingram and Hield becoming elite scorers and all out superstars - with Bender I see him becoming more of a really good all-rounder.  Kind of a bit like a Marc Gasol type.  Guy who doesn't put up spectacular numbers, but has a really big impact on games.

We definitely need size and I can see Bender being a good fit for Boston with his ability to block shots, defend multiple positions, pass the ball and hit outside shots.  Just not sure if he'll ever be a star.

I guess at the end of the day, we really can't go wrong - Simmons, Ingram, Bender or Hield would all be really nice additions, and they would all offer this team something that we are in need of.

If we fall to 5th (which doesn't seem likely, but is still very possible) then it is a bit of a drop off in talent I think...but I guess there are still some nice players available.

I see something special in his talent but that's difficult to explain.  One thing I don't like about the internet is the general consensus tends to run with ideas without factoring in certain things though.  I've explained most of this in other threads though.  If I put Ingram and Bender side by side an watch them shoot a 3 pt shot they both have good form.  Ingram just looks like he is a year ahead in his development.  I also don't see Ingram take it from the 3 pt line although he does occasionally and will finger roll it or finish in different ways around the rim. BEnder also does this. He looks like he is a year behind is all as far as finishing but has greater length and an assortment of things he does from that position. He is a super fluid athlete to me however which is what I see that is special. He also can contort his body and finish in different ways. Bender also will block shots and has the ability to then pass the ball up the court and seems to want to do this. Ingram seems more like a traditional small forward where he will bring it up sometimes and then hand it off to the pg.  He's not a point forward like Pierce.  Bender on the other hand can bring it and make plays  with his passing.  He's similar to KO this way but he is more fluid and faster.  He plays like a guard.   He is also a better shot blocker and seems to have more body control when finishing.   Bender also will make plays on the defensive end and gets out on the break and on the wing and ahead of the defense. I see him do this a lot.  He just seems to be able to do so many things and is in the correct position to do that.  He is a more well rounded player that way than Ingram or Simmons.  Ingram is a scorer but he's skinny. So is Bender but he does other things and can rebound with his length. He's longer.  Seems to be able to contort his body in different ways where Ingram is maybe more just polished in what he does right now. They are both good. I also see Bender pass it from the 3 pt line in. Ingram seems to play off the ball and more looks for his shot.  Bender does as well but can also pass it.  Ingram is a better iso scorer 15 feet and in it seems like and more polished that way. He has turnarounds where he can shoot over defenders, but Bender has length this way where he will be able to face up and use his speed and length to get by defenders or shoot, jab step, spin etc and post...  His post game seems to be an assortment of spins and hooks and stuff like that right now.

BEnder doesn't seem to have the lift Ingram does but is more creative that way.  Both guys can jump though. It seems to me like Ingram is shorter and might have a better vertical right now though why is he able to complete turnarounds and stuff like that.   Bender is no slouch though. I've seen him finish and he is very fluid and seems to glide himself a bit in the lane.  KO does struggles with this ability. He can finish off alley oops but as far as getting in the lane and gliding..  He is more grounded than that and has to be more creative. Why Tommy was always yelling at him to shoot in certain situations.  KO would get in the lane and choke sometimes.  KO is good too though.

I see Ingram as more a standard iso scorer but he's skinny.  He's not going to be Pierce for us. He also isn't the distributer.   I've compared him to a poor man's george gervin and I still see him as that. 

Bender to me seems to have all the tools.  Simmons is a rebounder and ball handler who is going to rebound and score with his athleticism and speed and instincts. Right now he becomes passive if taken out of his game like Wall does.  I've said all this in other threads.  He's a tremendous talent though and coaching can do wonders.  But he needs to become a better shooter and better off the ball and when teams slow him down. He's always going to be a guy who plays on the ball quite a bit.   

It's not hype with Bender either. He is a real talent.  Who knows what these guys are going to do and what kind of heart he has,  but he's not Darko.  Darko had issues that Bender doesn't right now.  Darko had no burst coming out. Was a hyped prospect who had drinking issues or something and spent his contract on drinking and women it seems like to me, but I don't know that.  Different times though.

It's difficult to tell from tape but Bender seems to have a natural feel for the game to me as well.  It's not just skillset.  He just looks like he has a good feel but hard to tell.  In reality it could be totally different.

A lot of what I see from tape is Bender plays in more aspects of the game.  If I compare the things he does to  Ingram that are the same, he just looks like he is a year behind in his development.  He's also longer.  Maybe doesn't have the vertical Ingram does.  But both guys are more finesse players anyways.  Neither guy is going to blake griffin you too often.

Bender also seem to have a really good attitude and knows he's 18 and has a lot of weaknesses and needs to improve at this stage.  He's confident though and knows he can play. He also seems very much like a team player in how he plays and talks and the things he says.

Bender to me seems like he can do everything Simmons and Ingram can and more in other words plus not dominate the ball and make a difference with his length which we need imo.

It's late though. I typed this up sort of fast and if there are grammatical errors my bad.  I'm not going to fix them right now.  Time for bed. Just kind of rambled out my thoughts.

People say things like you never pass on talent like that and I just hear those things and it's the same thing to me. Everything i've seen from him he looks like a super fluid natural scorer.  He is super fluid and has a ton of length.   Darko was a stiff. Totally different.   

[walker834]

I don't want to hijack this thread but just watch for yourself. My Dragan Bender love is growing...   He does everything. He also plays with an edge and plays tough and will fight for rebounds and putbacks. I really don't see anything he doesn't do and isn't fluid at it.  I say contort but i'm not that good with words but he even does that too when he takes contact and the ball still goes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS-x4J1OZ8E

 A lot of the shooting i was watching was when he was 16 years old as well comparing him to Ingram so he's probably better now.

What I see that is special from him is that he is special in so many ways and everything comes fluid to him and he also plays with an edge and is unselfish.

:58 seconds of that video watch how he takes off from the 3 pt line and finishes. Dear Lord.  There a ton more videos where he's doing more things and a million different things too.  Help defense. On ball defense.  Taking it from the 3 pt line and finishing like Bird.. He's 7'1. He's got lift.   He can shoot. He can pass.  He's not some overhyped prospect either in what he does. It's legit.   I've watched the lowlights and he's  no different than any other prospect at the top. All these guys are young.

[Roy H.]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm also entitled to find your comparison wildly off-base. Magic is almost universally seen as a top-five player of all-time. I think it does a real disservice to college freshman to saddle them with unrealistic expectations.

Simmons will be a huge success if he develops into the next Blake Griffin. He'd have to go two or three steps beyond that to be in the conversation with Magic.

I just don't understand why you are getting so defensive.

You are reacting as if I am saying "Simmons is going to be Magic Johnson 2.0".  I'm not saying that at all. 

What I'm saying is that Simmons' has a freakish set of skills and physical attributes that compare very well to what Magic and Lebron James (who will go down in history as all time greats) had when they came into the league.

Does that mean that Simmons is going to become as good as Magic and Lebron?  No, of course it doesn't.  To suggest such thing at this point in time would be silly.  All it means is that, if history is anything to go off, somebody with Simmons' skill/talent set is most likely going to become a really, really good NBA player.

So far the LEAST flattering comparison to Simmons that I have seen is Lamar Odom.  In his prime Lamar Odom was a 17/10/4 guy, so if that is the worst player you can find who has a Simmons-like skill set, then that is a pretty darn good floor.

So I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that Simmons has a floor or Lamar Odom, and a ceiling of Magic.

You will seemingly get offended by me listing Magic as his ceiling, citing the fact that Magic is an all-time great and all the rest of it.  But by saying Magic is his ceiling, I'm not predicting that Simmons will become as good as Magic.

What I am saying is that the absolute best case scenario for Simmons career is that he becomes as good as Magic.  In other words, I am saying that there is some (even if it is extremely, extremely small) possibility that he could become that good. 

By you saying my comparison is ridiculous, you are essentially claiming that it is absolutely impossible, and that there is absolutely no chance at all (not even the slightest possibility) that Simmons could become that good.

You say I am the one doing a disservice to Simmons by setting expectations too high.  Isn't it you who is doing him the disservice by trying to suggest he has no hope of ever becoming an all-time great on that level?

You say it is I who is being unrealistic for saying he could one day become that, given that I haven't seen him play a day in the league.  Isn't it you that is being unrealistic by suggesting that it is not at all possible that he could become that, when you also haven't seen him play a day in the league? 

See, I'm not the one dealing in absolutes here.  I'm not saying (in black or white) that Simmons WILL become that good.  I'm just saying he might.  I'm just saying that it's possible. 

You are the one dealing in absolutes here because you are the one saying that he won't and that he can't.  To the point where you are practically ridiculing the fact that I even suggest the possibility.

How do you know that Simmons will not ever become that good?  Have you seen the future?

I completely understand if you say "I don't believe he has the potential to become that good".  That's fine.  But you aren't saying that.  You are practically mocking me for even suggesting that it's possible. 

You talk about it as if it is insulting or dishonourable to compare an upcoming talent to an all-time great.  Yet at some point in their careers all of these all-time greats WERE upcoming talents. 

When Magic left college to come to the NBA, if you were there, you probably would have been utterly offended if somebody suggested that this draftee had the talent to one day be as good as Oscar Robinson. 

When Michael Jordan left college and came to the NBA, you probably would have been insulted if somebody suggested that this young kid had the talent to one day be as good as Dr J.

The fact of the matter is that everybody starts here.  Even the all-time greats one day started off as young kids with uncertain futures.  They all would have had their cult followers who swore they would be great, and they all would have had their hardcore critics who insisted they didn't have what it takes.

There is absolutely no guarantee that Simmons will become as good as guys like Magic or Lebron.  I would never suggest that he will be.  All I'm saying is that this kid as a very high floor, and an even higher ceiling, and that the sky is pretty much the limit when it comes to how good he could potentially become if he developed a solid jumper and the right attitude.

People go ga-ga over Ingram and insist he is so far above Simmons, and it makes me laugh.  Simmons is so much more TALENTED then Ingram that it isn't even funny.  Ingram is just a long, athletic kid who has a pretty good jumper.  He's pretty good at a few other things too, but he's not really elite at anything.  Even as a shooter, I wouldn't consider him elite - just good.  Defensively once again he is not elite - he's just solid with the potential to become good.  With Ingram everything is about 'potential'.  People complain about Simmons not being aggressive or tough enough, but Ingram has that exact same character flaw - people just ignore it for some reason.

In fact I think Hield might be a better prospect then Ingram.  He's a better shooter and far better scorer then Ingram.  He's probably just as good a passer and ball handler as Ingram.  He's a similarly good rebounder (relative to his position).   He has all the tools to be come a good defensive player.  At just under 6'5" / 215 pounds and with a 6'8" wingspan, he has very good size for an NBA SG.  In terms of intangibles Hield actually has a bigger heart, higher motor and better work ethic then either Simons or Ingram.  Really the only downside for Hield is his age - at 22 years old he is obviously on the older side for a rookie...but I think he might be the most NBA ready player in this draft, and even at his age I think he has All-Star written all over him.

Honestly, I like all three of Simmons / Ingram / Hield and I wouldn't complain if we ended up with either of those three guys.  But my fear with Ingram is his body.  There is skinny, and then there is Ingram skinny.  This guy is on a whole other level of thin, and he almost makes RJ Hunter look muscular.  His ability to become a star will be more or less completely dependant on his ability to add strength to his frame.  I'm sure he'll be ale to do that, but if he can't it is going to be a problem. Right now he is a teenager with a kids body, while Simmons is a teenager with a man's body.

Can you please point out where I'm being "so defensive"?

I simply disagree with comparing Simmons to a top-5 player all-time. At age 19, Simmons missed the Tournament. At age 19, Magic beat Larry Bird's undefeated team in the NCAA Finals. That alone separates them. Magic then went on to win five titles, made nine appearances in the Finals, won three MVP awards, was All-NBA first team nine times, etc., etc.

I'm a bigger believer that comparisons or "predictions" should be reasonable. Nothing about projecting Simmons to be a "slightly lesser" Magic is reasonable to me. 

[HomerSapien]

LBJ, Lamar Odom and Boris Diaw are the player comps that seem best to me right now for Simmons based on playing style. Based on his attitude and commitment he can probably develop to anywhere within that player spectrum as his career progresses (full Lebron is a stretch, but you never know).

I'm anxious to see him on the next stage as I feel like he has been NBA ready physically for 2 years but has just been waiting for the system to allow him to compete at the highest level until now.

[knuckleballer]

I don't want to hijack this thread but just watch for yourself. My Dragan Bender love is growing...   He does everything. He also plays with an edge and plays tough and will fight for rebounds and putbacks. I really don't see anything he doesn't do and isn't fluid at it.  I say contort but i'm not that good with words but he even does that too when he takes contact and the ball still goes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS-x4J1OZ8E

 A lot of the shooting i was watching was when he was 16 years old as well comparing him to Ingram so he's probably better now.

What I see that is special from him is that he is special in so many ways and everything comes fluid to him and he also plays with an edge and is unselfish.

:58 seconds of that video watch how he takes off from the 3 pt line and finishes. Dear Lord.  There a ton more videos where he's doing more things and a million different things too.  Help defense. On ball defense.  Taking it from the 3 pt line and finishing like Bird.. He's 7'1. He's got lift.   He can shoot. He can pass.  He's not some overhyped prospect either in what he does. It's legit.   I've watched the lowlights and he's  no different than any other prospect at the top. All these guys are young.

I have watched Bender's highlight videos and read scouting reports, but there doesn't seem to be enough information available to where I feel comfortable having much of an opinion of him.  Have you watched actual games?  It's just that highlight videos can be so deceiving.

[chambers]

I'm not sure people understand how athletic Ben Simmons is.

Taller than Lebron. Taller standing reach. Higher vertical. Better handle. Taller. Weighs more than Lebron did as a rookie and has room for size/muscle too....

Music sucks but very good video showcasing athleticism...look at how he finishes- some of his shots are amazing and he does them whenever needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-y9eZPkavQ

[gift]

LBJ, Lamar Odom and Boris Diaw are the player comps that seem best to me right now for Simmons based on playing style. Based on his attitude and commitment he can probably develop to anywhere within that player spectrum as his career progresses (full Lebron is a stretch, but you never know).

I'm anxious to see him on the next stage as I feel like he has been NBA ready physically for 2 years but has just been waiting for the system to allow him to compete at the highest level until now.

I have been comparing him to Diaw as well. Of course, he'd be a much more athletic version. But that's actually how I'd like to see him used in the nba. He'll need to work on his post game though, could be deadly in the high post. If he turns out to be a stat hog like some fear, that probably wouldn't work out well. If it does, he could dominate games without taking a lot of shots. The search for shooters would be next.

[TheSundanceKid]

Simmons to me is the overall number 1. Sure he has flaws but so does everyone. I'm not concerned by the lack of jump shot because with his athleticism and skill he can still get where he wants. In time he will need to develop one though. I'm not concerned with his attitude. He does come across as a bit me me me but I think there's more to that than selfishness. I think he knows he'll lead a team one day and is finding ways to prepare for that.

Literally my biggest concern is he's a massive Lakers fan and I wonder if that would affect his commitment to Boston long term. And if that is my biggest concern then I think we'll be ok 

[nickagneta]

I think Simmons has the highest upside in this draft. He also has, without a doubt, the highest floor in this draft. I think he is probably the best athlete and rebounder in this draft as well. Couple that with his play making and passing ability, ability to create off the dribble, and the ability to out muscle people in and around the paint when driving, ala Lebron, and. I think he has to be the pick if the. Celtics have the first pick.

Do I think he is a sure fire guarantee to become something special? No. But I don't think anyone in this draft class is. I think this is a pretty poor draft class, which is why you see a lot of unknown Euros being discussed in the top half of the first round.

I think you have to take Simmons at number one and then develop his mid range and three point game and force feed him into being the number one scoring option to develop his killer instinct. These are the areas that concern me with him but, draft him and he is easily the best front court player the. Celtics have by a very wide margin and that's without the killer instinct, a decent mid range game and no long range ability.

If the C's only have. Ingram available to them if they get the second pick, I will be very happy with that pick too. I just think long term, Simmons is the better prospect.