Ibaka disgruntled in his role in OKC

[Tr1boy]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish."

Maybe (though I doubt it) , you will get it , after reading this part again.

Either English isn't your primary language or your attention to detail is seriously flawed.

Even after the quote above by the previous user.   You choose to ignore it or trick yourself to believe it is false

You think somehow magically Ibaka is going to be an offensive terror here or something. He has very limited skills in terms of passing, handilng the ball, dribble stop and pop etc.   So how is he going to "get his way offensively" as a Celtic?   is he going to dunk or layup the ball almost everytime after the pnr?

why don't you provide a DETAIL explanation as to how he will be able to contribute more on the offensive end as a Celtic?  Playing with IT?

instead of throwing out overrated touch "stats" .    Take a look at GWS and Spurs team touch stats for each player. It is on the high side due to "sharing" the ball mentality. Doesn't mean that the 1st or 2nd guy that touches ball  , gets an assist nor scores the bucket. 

[Endless Paradise]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

How is it even arguable? Because what kind of sense does it make to increase someone's usage just for the sake of increasing their usage? If Ibaka could actually do more things with the ball, then it'd make sense for him to have a higher usage rate.

Amir Johnson has a better feel for the game and a higher basketball IQ. Hence, gasp, why he has a higher usage rate.

I think you're confusing touches with facilitating offense. No one is saying that offense has to run though Ibaka, but the point is that he's been relegated to a bystander primarily because of the offense OKC runs and the ball dominance that their star players have.

No, I get your point entirely. I'm saying your point is wrong. Ibaka's been relegated to being a bystander because he relies entirely on people setting him up for open shots. What, you think Ibaka should be getting more shots or something? He's a really good midrange shooter, but why would the second-best offense in the league want to change their offense to give someone more of some of the most inefficient shots in the game?...

Conversely, by the Amir talk you seem to suggest that Johnson's role in OKC would be equal to his current one in Boston, while Ibaka's usage would be the same under Stevens, and that it has to do with the players skills and not with style. Is that correct?

Absolutely. Like I said, Donovan started the season envisioning a much larger role in the offense for both of his bigs, but had to tweak his offense because of limitations in their respective games. Adams has progressed in that front over the season, so you're seeing him do ever so slightly more facilitating and receiving more touches, while Ibaka has also progressed, but at a far slower rate.

You know who's comparable to Amir Johnson on OKC's roster? Nick Collison. His usage rate and touches over the years with the Thunder, up until recently (due to age), would reflect his ability to do things with the ball.

You get the ball more when you can actually do productive things with it.

[MBunge]

Two years ago at 24, Ibaka put up 15.1 pts, 8.8 rebs, 2.7 blks on 53% shooting and 38% from 3.  His production has fallen the past two years and now, in essentially the same minutes, he's putting up 12.7 pts, 6.8 rebs, 1.9 blks on 48% shooting and 33% from 3.

It's basically unheard of for a player who looks as good as Ibaka to decline as he enters his prime, so I think it's fair to say the problem is in how he's being used and that he should at least be able to get back to his previous numbers.

Mike

[Tr1boy]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish."

Maybe (though I doubt it) , you will get it , after reading this part again.

Either English isn't your primary language or your attention to detail is seriously flawed.

Even after the quote above by the previous user.   You choose to ignore it or trick yourself to believe it is false

You think somehow magically Ibaka is going to be an offensive terror here or something. He has very limited skills in terms of passing, handilng the ball, dribble stop and pop etc.   So how is he going to "get his way offensively" as a Celtic?   is he going to dunk or layup the ball almost everytime after the pnr?

why don't you provide a DETAIL explanation as to how he will be able to contribute more on the offensive end as a Celtic?  Playing with IT?

instead of throwing out overrated touch "stats" .    Take a look at GWS and Spurs team touch stats for each player. It is on the high side due to "sharing" the ball mentality. Doesn't mean the 1st guy that touches it , gets an assist next or scores the bucket.

There you go with the reading comprehension again. No one ever said he's going to be an "offensive terror". However, you said he would have the same role as in OKC, I disagreed. You continued howling at the moon, while I provided evidence to support my thoughts as to why he would have a higher usage rate here. No one ever said "he's going to get his way" either. Do you have some sort of disability? I encourage you to slow down, take a deep breath, read slowly, and once you grasp everything I've written, then respond.

I think , finally you are "getting it"

[Eddie20]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

How is it even arguable? Because what kind of sense does it make to increase someone's usage just for the sake of increasing their usage? If Ibaka could actually do more things with the ball, then it'd make sense for him to have a higher usage rate.

Amir Johnson has a better feel for the game and a higher basketball IQ. Hence, gasp, why he has a higher usage rate.

I think you're confusing touches with facilitating offense. No one is saying that offense has to run though Ibaka, but the point is that he's been relegated to a bystander primarily because of the offense OKC runs and the ball dominance that their star players have.

No, I get your point entirely. I'm saying your point is wrong. Ibaka's been relegated to being a bystander because he relies entirely on people setting him up for open shots. What, you think Ibaka should be getting more shots or something? He's a really good midrange shooter, but why would the second-best offense in the league want to change their offense to give someone more of some of the most inefficient shots in the game?...

Conversely, by the Amir talk you seem to suggest that Johnson's role in OKC would be equal to his current one in Boston, while Ibaka's usage would be the same under Stevens, and that it has to do with the players skills and not with style. Is that correct?

Absolutely. Like I said, Donovan started the season envisioning a much larger role in the offense for both of his bigs, but had to tweak his offense because of limitations in their respective games. Adams has progressed in that front over the season, so you're seeing him do ever so slightly more facilitating and receiving more touches, while Ibaka has also progressed, but at a far slower rate.

You know who's comparable to Amir Johnson on OKC's roster? Nick Collison. His usage rate and touches over the years with the Thunder, up until recently (due to age), would reflect his ability to do things with the ball.

You get the ball more when you can actually do productive things with it.

Pretty detailed. Filled with GIF's too. Explains as to why he struggled early in the season and his improvement since.
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14627188/nba-serge-ibaka-barometer-healthy-oklahoma-city-thunder-offense

[Endless Paradise]

Two years ago at 24, Ibaka put up 15.1 pts, 8.8 rebs, 2.7 blks on 53% shooting and 38% from 3.  His production has fallen the past two years and now, in essentially the same minutes, he's putting up 12.7 pts, 6.8 rebs, 1.9 blks on 48% shooting and 33% from 3.

It's basically unheard of for a player who looks as good as Ibaka to decline as he enters his prime, so I think it's fair to say the problem is in how he's being used and that he should at least be able to get back to his previous numbers.

Mike

He had season-ending knee surgery late last season. It's fair to say part of the problem was how he was being used, but it's unfair to ignore the impact his knee surgery had on his season. From watching Ibaka, you could just tell it looked like he lost some lift and bounce earlier in the season. He's looked far more spry and energetic in the past two months or so.

[Endless Paradise]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

How is it even arguable? Because what kind of sense does it make to increase someone's usage just for the sake of increasing their usage? If Ibaka could actually do more things with the ball, then it'd make sense for him to have a higher usage rate.

Amir Johnson has a better feel for the game and a higher basketball IQ. Hence, gasp, why he has a higher usage rate.

I think you're confusing touches with facilitating offense. No one is saying that offense has to run though Ibaka, but the point is that he's been relegated to a bystander primarily because of the offense OKC runs and the ball dominance that their star players have.

No, I get your point entirely. I'm saying your point is wrong. Ibaka's been relegated to being a bystander because he relies entirely on people setting him up for open shots. What, you think Ibaka should be getting more shots or something? He's a really good midrange shooter, but why would the second-best offense in the league want to change their offense to give someone more of some of the most inefficient shots in the game?...

Conversely, by the Amir talk you seem to suggest that Johnson's role in OKC would be equal to his current one in Boston, while Ibaka's usage would be the same under Stevens, and that it has to do with the players skills and not with style. Is that correct?

Absolutely. Like I said, Donovan started the season envisioning a much larger role in the offense for both of his bigs, but had to tweak his offense because of limitations in their respective games. Adams has progressed in that front over the season, so you're seeing him do ever so slightly more facilitating and receiving more touches, while Ibaka has also progressed, but at a far slower rate.

You know who's comparable to Amir Johnson on OKC's roster? Nick Collison. His usage rate and touches over the years with the Thunder, up until recently (due to age), would reflect his ability to do things with the ball.

You get the ball more when you can actually do productive things with it.

Pretty detailed. Filled with GIF's too. Explains as to why he struggled early in the season and his improvement since.
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14627188/nba-serge-ibaka-barometer-healthy-oklahoma-city-thunder-offense

I read that article when it came out. You realize it's essentially just saying, in far more words, exactly what I've been arguing here, right?

"When you're working so hard, when you spend so much time working on something, you really want see the result," Ibaka says. "And when you see the result you're going to enjoy it. So every time I make an assist, it makes me feel good."

Ibaka doesn't get to enjoy it that often. He's got just 37 assists on the season, for an average of 0.8 per game. Draymond Green, he is not. Nor will he ever be. And nor are the Thunder asking him to be. Ibaka is a straightforward player, while maybe one of the most unique. He's a 3-and-D big man, a shot-blocking centaur who hits 40 percent from deep. But he's as mechanical as they come, an A-to-B player, almost robotic in the way he reads and reacts.

That's why, early in the season, Ibaka struggled. As he adapted to Donovan's offensive changes, he was clearly over thinking at times, with the gears turning in his head almost visible each time he caught the ball. His first two months, Ibaka was routinely caught in midrange purgatory, passing on open shots, and then waiting too long to swing the ball to the opposite side.

"Was there a level of growth? I think there definitely was," Donovan concedes in the most polite way possible. "But I didn't lose confidence because I didn't think I was asking Serge too much, like 'you gotta break this guy down, go between your legs, cross over and then look opposite.' I thought it was pretty simple for him and I really believed he could do it and I really think he's gotten better at it."

[Tr1boy]

Two years ago at 24, Ibaka put up 15.1 pts, 8.8 rebs, 2.7 blks on 53% shooting and 38% from 3.  His production has fallen the past two years and now, in essentially the same minutes, he's putting up 12.7 pts, 6.8 rebs, 1.9 blks on 48% shooting and 33% from 3.

It's basically unheard of for a player who looks as good as Ibaka to decline as he enters his prime, so I think it's fair to say the problem is in how he's being used and that he should at least be able to get back to his previous numbers.

Mike

Teams have figured out a way to play him.   I see players defending him tighter.  With lack of good handles then all he can do is pass the ball.   

So instead it looks like the coaching staff has limited his role to a spot up shooter.

Instead of complaining, like Biyombo , Ibaka can do more on the offensive glass and go for rebounds, tip ins etc. to contribute on the offensive end 

[Eddie20]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

How is it even arguable? Because what kind of sense does it make to increase someone's usage just for the sake of increasing their usage? If Ibaka could actually do more things with the ball, then it'd make sense for him to have a higher usage rate.

Amir Johnson has a better feel for the game and a higher basketball IQ. Hence, gasp, why he has a higher usage rate.

I think you're confusing touches with facilitating offense. No one is saying that offense has to run though Ibaka, but the point is that he's been relegated to a bystander primarily because of the offense OKC runs and the ball dominance that their star players have.

No, I get your point entirely. I'm saying your point is wrong. Ibaka's been relegated to being a bystander because he relies entirely on people setting him up for open shots. What, you think Ibaka should be getting more shots or something? He's a really good midrange shooter, but why would the second-best offense in the league want to change their offense to give someone more of some of the most inefficient shots in the game?...

Conversely, by the Amir talk you seem to suggest that Johnson's role in OKC would be equal to his current one in Boston, while Ibaka's usage would be the same under Stevens, and that it has to do with the players skills and not with style. Is that correct?

Absolutely. Like I said, Donovan started the season envisioning a much larger role in the offense for both of his bigs, but had to tweak his offense because of limitations in their respective games. Adams has progressed in that front over the season, so you're seeing him do ever so slightly more facilitating and receiving more touches, while Ibaka has also progressed, but at a far slower rate.

You know who's comparable to Amir Johnson on OKC's roster? Nick Collison. His usage rate and touches over the years with the Thunder, up until recently (due to age), would reflect his ability to do things with the ball.

You get the ball more when you can actually do productive things with it.

Pretty detailed. Filled with GIF's too. Explains as to why he struggled early in the season and his improvement since.
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14627188/nba-serge-ibaka-barometer-healthy-oklahoma-city-thunder-offense

I read that article when it came out. You realize it's essentially just saying, in far more words, exactly what I've been arguing here, right?

"When you're working so hard, when you spend so much time working on something, you really want see the result," Ibaka says. "And when you see the result you're going to enjoy it. So every time I make an assist, it makes me feel good."

Ibaka doesn't get to enjoy it that often. He's got just 37 assists on the season, for an average of 0.8 per game. Draymond Green, he is not. Nor will he ever be. And nor are the Thunder asking him to be. Ibaka is a straightforward player, while maybe one of the most unique. He's a 3-and-D big man, a shot-blocking centaur who hits 40 percent from deep. But he's as mechanical as they come, an A-to-B player, almost robotic in the way he reads and reacts.

That's why, early in the season, Ibaka struggled. As he adapted to Donovan's offensive changes, he was clearly over thinking at times, with the gears turning in his head almost visible each time he caught the ball. His first two months, Ibaka was routinely caught in midrange purgatory, passing on open shots, and then waiting too long to swing the ball to the opposite side.

"Was there a level of growth? I think there definitely was," Donovan concedes in the most polite way possible. "But I didn't lose confidence because I didn't think I was asking Serge too much, like 'you gotta break this guy down, go between your legs, cross over and then look opposite.' I thought it was pretty simple for him and I really believed he could do it and I really think he's gotten better at it."

Not really, no. You cherry-picked the first part of the article, but excluded all of the stuff thereafter where it talks about why he struggled in the early part of the year and how his game has evolved since.

Again, I don't think he's an offensive force. Lets be clear. But he's definitely being underutilized on that team.

[Tr1boy]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

How is it even arguable? Because what kind of sense does it make to increase someone's usage just for the sake of increasing their usage? If Ibaka could actually do more things with the ball, then it'd make sense for him to have a higher usage rate.

Amir Johnson has a better feel for the game and a higher basketball IQ. Hence, gasp, why he has a higher usage rate.

I think you're confusing touches with facilitating offense. No one is saying that offense has to run though Ibaka, but the point is that he's been relegated to a bystander primarily because of the offense OKC runs and the ball dominance that their star players have.

No, I get your point entirely. I'm saying your point is wrong. Ibaka's been relegated to being a bystander because he relies entirely on people setting him up for open shots. What, you think Ibaka should be getting more shots or something? He's a really good midrange shooter, but why would the second-best offense in the league want to change their offense to give someone more of some of the most inefficient shots in the game?...

Conversely, by the Amir talk you seem to suggest that Johnson's role in OKC would be equal to his current one in Boston, while Ibaka's usage would be the same under Stevens, and that it has to do with the players skills and not with style. Is that correct?

Absolutely. Like I said, Donovan started the season envisioning a much larger role in the offense for both of his bigs, but had to tweak his offense because of limitations in their respective games. Adams has progressed in that front over the season, so you're seeing him do ever so slightly more facilitating and receiving more touches, while Ibaka has also progressed, but at a far slower rate.

You know who's comparable to Amir Johnson on OKC's roster? Nick Collison. His usage rate and touches over the years with the Thunder, up until recently (due to age), would reflect his ability to do things with the ball.

You get the ball more when you can actually do productive things with it.

Pretty detailed. Filled with GIF's too. Explains as to why he struggled early in the season and his improvement since.
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14627188/nba-serge-ibaka-barometer-healthy-oklahoma-city-thunder-offense

I read that article when it came out. You realize it's essentially just saying, in far more words, exactly what I've been arguing here, right?

"When you're working so hard, when you spend so much time working on something, you really want see the result," Ibaka says. "And when you see the result you're going to enjoy it. So every time I make an assist, it makes me feel good."

Ibaka doesn't get to enjoy it that often. He's got just 37 assists on the season, for an average of 0.8 per game. Draymond Green, he is not. Nor will he ever be. And nor are the Thunder asking him to be. Ibaka is a straightforward player, while maybe one of the most unique. He's a 3-and-D big man, a shot-blocking centaur who hits 40 percent from deep. But he's as mechanical as they come, an A-to-B player, almost robotic in the way he reads and reacts.

That's why, early in the season, Ibaka struggled. As he adapted to Donovan's offensive changes, he was clearly over thinking at times, with the gears turning in his head almost visible each time he caught the ball. His first two months, Ibaka was routinely caught in midrange purgatory, passing on open shots, and then waiting too long to swing the ball to the opposite side.

"Was there a level of growth? I think there definitely was," Donovan concedes in the most polite way possible. "But I didn't lose confidence because I didn't think I was asking Serge too much, like 'you gotta break this guy down, go between your legs, cross over and then look opposite.' I thought it was pretty simple for him and I really believed he could do it and I really think he's gotten better at it."

Endless Paradise , it's because Eddie20 is finally starting to "get it" 

[Eddie20]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

How is it even arguable? Because what kind of sense does it make to increase someone's usage just for the sake of increasing their usage? If Ibaka could actually do more things with the ball, then it'd make sense for him to have a higher usage rate.

Amir Johnson has a better feel for the game and a higher basketball IQ. Hence, gasp, why he has a higher usage rate.

I think you're confusing touches with facilitating offense. No one is saying that offense has to run though Ibaka, but the point is that he's been relegated to a bystander primarily because of the offense OKC runs and the ball dominance that their star players have.

No, I get your point entirely. I'm saying your point is wrong. Ibaka's been relegated to being a bystander because he relies entirely on people setting him up for open shots. What, you think Ibaka should be getting more shots or something? He's a really good midrange shooter, but why would the second-best offense in the league want to change their offense to give someone more of some of the most inefficient shots in the game?...

Conversely, by the Amir talk you seem to suggest that Johnson's role in OKC would be equal to his current one in Boston, while Ibaka's usage would be the same under Stevens, and that it has to do with the players skills and not with style. Is that correct?

Absolutely. Like I said, Donovan started the season envisioning a much larger role in the offense for both of his bigs, but had to tweak his offense because of limitations in their respective games. Adams has progressed in that front over the season, so you're seeing him do ever so slightly more facilitating and receiving more touches, while Ibaka has also progressed, but at a far slower rate.

You know who's comparable to Amir Johnson on OKC's roster? Nick Collison. His usage rate and touches over the years with the Thunder, up until recently (due to age), would reflect his ability to do things with the ball.

You get the ball more when you can actually do productive things with it.

Pretty detailed. Filled with GIF's too. Explains as to why he struggled early in the season and his improvement since.
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14627188/nba-serge-ibaka-barometer-healthy-oklahoma-city-thunder-offense

I read that article when it came out. You realize it's essentially just saying, in far more words, exactly what I've been arguing here, right?

"When you're working so hard, when you spend so much time working on something, you really want see the result," Ibaka says. "And when you see the result you're going to enjoy it. So every time I make an assist, it makes me feel good."

Ibaka doesn't get to enjoy it that often. He's got just 37 assists on the season, for an average of 0.8 per game. Draymond Green, he is not. Nor will he ever be. And nor are the Thunder asking him to be. Ibaka is a straightforward player, while maybe one of the most unique. He's a 3-and-D big man, a shot-blocking centaur who hits 40 percent from deep. But he's as mechanical as they come, an A-to-B player, almost robotic in the way he reads and reacts.

That's why, early in the season, Ibaka struggled. As he adapted to Donovan's offensive changes, he was clearly over thinking at times, with the gears turning in his head almost visible each time he caught the ball. His first two months, Ibaka was routinely caught in midrange purgatory, passing on open shots, and then waiting too long to swing the ball to the opposite side.

"Was there a level of growth? I think there definitely was," Donovan concedes in the most polite way possible. "But I didn't lose confidence because I didn't think I was asking Serge too much, like 'you gotta break this guy down, go between your legs, cross over and then look opposite.' I thought it was pretty simple for him and I really believed he could do it and I really think he's gotten better at it."

Endless Paradise , it's because Eddie20 is finally starting to "get it"

Good job.

[Endless Paradise]

The thing is, this topic is based on something that's not even true. Ibaka isn't even really complaining about anything. Here's the article in question, which, for whatever reason, wasn't linked to at any point:

http://newsok.com/article/5488117

But this season, which has included a statistical dip across the board, the defensive impact has diminished. There are many theories as to why. Among them includes a lesser role in the Thunder offense. His 11.2 shot attempts per game are his fewest in three seasons.

“I’m gonna tell you the truth, it’s hard sometimes when you play hard, you play you’re (butt off),” Ibaka swore, before apologizing and rephrasing. “You play so hard on defense, then you come to offense and you’re going to be out there in the corner for 4, 5, 6, sometimes 8 minutes and you don’t touch the ball. We human, man. It’s hard.”

But during this eight-game win streak, the Thunder’s offense has been in a constant flow. OKC had 29 assists on 41 made shots on Monday night. Ibaka was one of the many beneficiaries.

“We’re playing great basketball,” he said. “Russell and Kevin are doing a better job moving the ball, making us to feel a part of the team.”

Ibaka's shots have dropped off because the Thunder are healthy again. The last time the Thunder were healthy was the 2012-13 season, when Ibaka actually averaged fewer shots than he is this season (9.7 then, 11.2 now). Westbrook missed a chunk of the 2013-14 season, so Ibaka took more shots, and then KD and almost everyone on the team was injured in 2014-15, so again, Ibaka took more shots.

The team's healthy and Ibaka's taking less shots again. That's going to happen when you're the third option. And it's not like KD and Westbrook are even taking more shots or anything; KD and Westbrook have essentially swapped shot attempts between 2012-13 and this season. (17.7 for KD, 18.7 for Westbrook in 2013 vs 19.1 for KD, 18.2 for Westbrook this season).

[Tr1boy]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

How is it even arguable? Because what kind of sense does it make to increase someone's usage just for the sake of increasing their usage? If Ibaka could actually do more things with the ball, then it'd make sense for him to have a higher usage rate.

Amir Johnson has a better feel for the game and a higher basketball IQ. Hence, gasp, why he has a higher usage rate.

I think you're confusing touches with facilitating offense. No one is saying that offense has to run though Ibaka, but the point is that he's been relegated to a bystander primarily because of the offense OKC runs and the ball dominance that their star players have.

No, I get your point entirely. I'm saying your point is wrong. Ibaka's been relegated to being a bystander because he relies entirely on people setting him up for open shots. What, you think Ibaka should be getting more shots or something? He's a really good midrange shooter, but why would the second-best offense in the league want to change their offense to give someone more of some of the most inefficient shots in the game?...

Conversely, by the Amir talk you seem to suggest that Johnson's role in OKC would be equal to his current one in Boston, while Ibaka's usage would be the same under Stevens, and that it has to do with the players skills and not with style. Is that correct?

Absolutely. Like I said, Donovan started the season envisioning a much larger role in the offense for both of his bigs, but had to tweak his offense because of limitations in their respective games. Adams has progressed in that front over the season, so you're seeing him do ever so slightly more facilitating and receiving more touches, while Ibaka has also progressed, but at a far slower rate.

You know who's comparable to Amir Johnson on OKC's roster? Nick Collison. His usage rate and touches over the years with the Thunder, up until recently (due to age), would reflect his ability to do things with the ball.

You get the ball more when you can actually do productive things with it.

Pretty detailed. Filled with GIF's too. Explains as to why he struggled early in the season and his improvement since.
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14627188/nba-serge-ibaka-barometer-healthy-oklahoma-city-thunder-offense

I read that article when it came out. You realize it's essentially just saying, in far more words, exactly what I've been arguing here, right?

"When you're working so hard, when you spend so much time working on something, you really want see the result," Ibaka says. "And when you see the result you're going to enjoy it. So every time I make an assist, it makes me feel good."

Ibaka doesn't get to enjoy it that often. He's got just 37 assists on the season, for an average of 0.8 per game. Draymond Green, he is not. Nor will he ever be. And nor are the Thunder asking him to be. Ibaka is a straightforward player, while maybe one of the most unique. He's a 3-and-D big man, a shot-blocking centaur who hits 40 percent from deep. But he's as mechanical as they come, an A-to-B player, almost robotic in the way he reads and reacts.

That's why, early in the season, Ibaka struggled. As he adapted to Donovan's offensive changes, he was clearly over thinking at times, with the gears turning in his head almost visible each time he caught the ball. His first two months, Ibaka was routinely caught in midrange purgatory, passing on open shots, and then waiting too long to swing the ball to the opposite side.

"Was there a level of growth? I think there definitely was," Donovan concedes in the most polite way possible. "But I didn't lose confidence because I didn't think I was asking Serge too much, like 'you gotta break this guy down, go between your legs, cross over and then look opposite.' I thought it was pretty simple for him and I really believed he could do it and I really think he's gotten better at it."

Not really, no. You cherry-picked the first part of the article, but excluded all of the stuff thereafter where it talks about why he struggled in the early part of the year and how his game has evolved since.

nope. Eddie20 doesn't get it .

endless paradise chose to point out that part of the article  bc it points out the "root" of the problem

[Endless Paradise]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

How is it even arguable? Because what kind of sense does it make to increase someone's usage just for the sake of increasing their usage? If Ibaka could actually do more things with the ball, then it'd make sense for him to have a higher usage rate.

Amir Johnson has a better feel for the game and a higher basketball IQ. Hence, gasp, why he has a higher usage rate.

I think you're confusing touches with facilitating offense. No one is saying that offense has to run though Ibaka, but the point is that he's been relegated to a bystander primarily because of the offense OKC runs and the ball dominance that their star players have.

No, I get your point entirely. I'm saying your point is wrong. Ibaka's been relegated to being a bystander because he relies entirely on people setting him up for open shots. What, you think Ibaka should be getting more shots or something? He's a really good midrange shooter, but why would the second-best offense in the league want to change their offense to give someone more of some of the most inefficient shots in the game?...

Conversely, by the Amir talk you seem to suggest that Johnson's role in OKC would be equal to his current one in Boston, while Ibaka's usage would be the same under Stevens, and that it has to do with the players skills and not with style. Is that correct?

Absolutely. Like I said, Donovan started the season envisioning a much larger role in the offense for both of his bigs, but had to tweak his offense because of limitations in their respective games. Adams has progressed in that front over the season, so you're seeing him do ever so slightly more facilitating and receiving more touches, while Ibaka has also progressed, but at a far slower rate.

You know who's comparable to Amir Johnson on OKC's roster? Nick Collison. His usage rate and touches over the years with the Thunder, up until recently (due to age), would reflect his ability to do things with the ball.

You get the ball more when you can actually do productive things with it.

Pretty detailed. Filled with GIF's too. Explains as to why he struggled early in the season and his improvement since.
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14627188/nba-serge-ibaka-barometer-healthy-oklahoma-city-thunder-offense

I read that article when it came out. You realize it's essentially just saying, in far more words, exactly what I've been arguing here, right?

"When you're working so hard, when you spend so much time working on something, you really want see the result," Ibaka says. "And when you see the result you're going to enjoy it. So every time I make an assist, it makes me feel good."

Ibaka doesn't get to enjoy it that often. He's got just 37 assists on the season, for an average of 0.8 per game. Draymond Green, he is not. Nor will he ever be. And nor are the Thunder asking him to be. Ibaka is a straightforward player, while maybe one of the most unique. He's a 3-and-D big man, a shot-blocking centaur who hits 40 percent from deep. But he's as mechanical as they come, an A-to-B player, almost robotic in the way he reads and reacts.

That's why, early in the season, Ibaka struggled. As he adapted to Donovan's offensive changes, he was clearly over thinking at times, with the gears turning in his head almost visible each time he caught the ball. His first two months, Ibaka was routinely caught in midrange purgatory, passing on open shots, and then waiting too long to swing the ball to the opposite side.

"Was there a level of growth? I think there definitely was," Donovan concedes in the most polite way possible. "But I didn't lose confidence because I didn't think I was asking Serge too much, like 'you gotta break this guy down, go between your legs, cross over and then look opposite.' I thought it was pretty simple for him and I really believed he could do it and I really think he's gotten better at it."

Not really, no. You cherry-picked the first part of the article, but excluded all of the stuff thereafter where it talks about why he struggled in the early part of the year and how his game has evolved since.

Again, I don't think he's an offensive force. Lets be clear. But he's definitely being underutilized on that team.

So how about you actually quote these relevant parts that somehow disprove my argument about his early struggles?

Because if you're referring to stuff like this:

It's not that Ibaka is supposed to average four assists a game or something. It's more that his involvement is a temperature check of sorts for the Thunder offense, a way to measure if it's functioning as it's intended to. When he's involved, when he's active, when he's getting those pocket touches, that's what it's supposed to look like.

"It's huge for us. We need him to do that," Durant said. "He's getting better at it every day. He's working on it. He's learning when to shoot, when to pass and that's the hardest thing in this league, especially when you're a 4 and you're getting the ball swung to you a lot, it's hard to know when to shoot and when to pass. We've got to be patient with him because it takes time, just like it takes time with every part of your game. He's learning."

... again, it all comes down to the fact that Ibaka's game is limited.

[Endless Paradise]

*rolls eyes*

People are complaining about Ibaka's lack of involvement in the offense as if they actually paid attention to the Thunder this year. Whoopty-doo, you can cite his touches per games.

You know why Ibaka's not involved more in the offense? Because he has a pretty mediocre BBIQ, a really limited offensive game (he's a phenomenal shooter, though his numbers have fallen off this year... has no post game... his handles are just above raw, to put it nicely), and almost no passing game to speak of. Donovan actually ran a lot of high PNR conduit stuff with Adams and Ibaka at the start of the year. Adams struggled a bit (but has become better as the year progressed), but Ibaka was struggling MIGHTILY. That was a huge part of his down year; he got off to such a poor start.

"Ibaka's not being used enough and is disgruntled." Funny how you guys conveniently forget that basically everyone on the Thunder was injured last year, giving Ibaka a prime opportunity to step up with a larger role in the offense when KD and Westbrook were both out. What did Ibaka do? He responded by... basically being the exact same Ibaka he is when playing with KD and Westbrook. Ibaka's role is limited because his game is limited, not because he's not allowed to flourish.

You're making a whole other argument. No one is saying that Ibaka doesn't have a limited offensive game, but compared to Amir he looks like the Iceman. So the question is, would Ibaka have a higher usage rate here? I think the answer is obvious. Moreover, I do trust Stevens to take advantage of his skillset (finishing at the rim, pick and pops) much more than Donovan has. How is this even arguable?

How is it even arguable? Because what kind of sense does it make to increase someone's usage just for the sake of increasing their usage? If Ibaka could actually do more things with the ball, then it'd make sense for him to have a higher usage rate.

Amir Johnson has a better feel for the game and a higher basketball IQ. Hence, gasp, why he has a higher usage rate.

I think you're confusing touches with facilitating offense. No one is saying that offense has to run though Ibaka, but the point is that he's been relegated to a bystander primarily because of the offense OKC runs and the ball dominance that their star players have.

No, I get your point entirely. I'm saying your point is wrong. Ibaka's been relegated to being a bystander because he relies entirely on people setting him up for open shots. What, you think Ibaka should be getting more shots or something? He's a really good midrange shooter, but why would the second-best offense in the league want to change their offense to give someone more of some of the most inefficient shots in the game?...

Conversely, by the Amir talk you seem to suggest that Johnson's role in OKC would be equal to his current one in Boston, while Ibaka's usage would be the same under Stevens, and that it has to do with the players skills and not with style. Is that correct?

Absolutely. Like I said, Donovan started the season envisioning a much larger role in the offense for both of his bigs, but had to tweak his offense because of limitations in their respective games. Adams has progressed in that front over the season, so you're seeing him do ever so slightly more facilitating and receiving more touches, while Ibaka has also progressed, but at a far slower rate.

You know who's comparable to Amir Johnson on OKC's roster? Nick Collison. His usage rate and touches over the years with the Thunder, up until recently (due to age), would reflect his ability to do things with the ball.

You get the ball more when you can actually do productive things with it.

Pretty detailed. Filled with GIF's too. Explains as to why he struggled early in the season and his improvement since.
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14627188/nba-serge-ibaka-barometer-healthy-oklahoma-city-thunder-offense

I read that article when it came out. You realize it's essentially just saying, in far more words, exactly what I've been arguing here, right?

"When you're working so hard, when you spend so much time working on something, you really want see the result," Ibaka says. "And when you see the result you're going to enjoy it. So every time I make an assist, it makes me feel good."

Ibaka doesn't get to enjoy it that often. He's got just 37 assists on the season, for an average of 0.8 per game. Draymond Green, he is not. Nor will he ever be. And nor are the Thunder asking him to be. Ibaka is a straightforward player, while maybe one of the most unique. He's a 3-and-D big man, a shot-blocking centaur who hits 40 percent from deep. But he's as mechanical as they come, an A-to-B player, almost robotic in the way he reads and reacts.

That's why, early in the season, Ibaka struggled. As he adapted to Donovan's offensive changes, he was clearly over thinking at times, with the gears turning in his head almost visible each time he caught the ball. His first two months, Ibaka was routinely caught in midrange purgatory, passing on open shots, and then waiting too long to swing the ball to the opposite side.

"Was there a level of growth? I think there definitely was," Donovan concedes in the most polite way possible. "But I didn't lose confidence because I didn't think I was asking Serge too much, like 'you gotta break this guy down, go between your legs, cross over and then look opposite.' I thought it was pretty simple for him and I really believed he could do it and I really think he's gotten better at it."

Not really, no. You cherry-picked the first part of the article, but excluded all of the stuff thereafter where it talks about why he struggled in the early part of the year and how his game has evolved since.

nope. Eddie20 doesn't get it .

endless paradise chose to point out that part of the article  bc it points out the "root" of the problem

Nah, the root of the problem is clearly just that he's "definitely being underutilized" and his touches per game prove it.