Author Topic: Star players are overrated  (Read 9281 times)

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Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2016, 08:48:21 PM »

Online Vermont Green

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I think there are two key elements to most championship caliber teams.  One is you need a really good best player.  It really helps if your best player is better than the other team's best player.  Right now, our best player in terms of current production is IT.  He is a fine player but not that great of a best player on your team player.

Then you need talent/depth.  A really good player on a not so talented team will only go so far.  We are closer on that part of the equation but we have some work to do there as well.

I don't think true star players are overrated.  Some individual star players are overrated (think Dwight Howard for example) but you don't very often see any of these overrated stars on really good teams.

I don't think general talent is overrated either.  Even with a really good best player and general talent to support the best player, you still need a good coach and a team chemistry where everyone has bought in to the program and each other (we are pretty good on this front).  There is a lot to being a really good team.

Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2016, 08:52:24 PM »

Offline esel1000

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Seeing that basically every championship since 96 has been won with a team that had Duncan, Kobe, and Lebron, with the ones that didn't having Curry, Dirk, Wade/Shaq (who both also won with Kobe and LeBron) and KG (04 Pistons the loan exception) I'm going to assume that star players aren't overrated... Though there is something to be said for chemistry especially in the regular season. This is a star league though

Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2016, 08:54:11 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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No they're not.
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Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2016, 08:59:18 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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The '14 Spurs had Duncan, but it was a 37-year-old very good Duncan, not the all-time great Duncan. If you blanked out the names on the jerseys and in the box scores, was that really the kind of star-studded team that this Celtics squad can't hope to mimic with a little more development and maybe one more defense-first semi-star addition to the frontcourt?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 09:04:22 PM by Dino Pitino »
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Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2016, 09:04:33 PM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2016, 09:12:52 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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"WE are the superstar"
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And yet, who are we looking up at in the standings?

Cavs -- Superstar + multiple stars
Spurs - Aging superstar, budding superstar (Kawhi), aging stars
Thunder - multiple superstars
Warriors - Reigning MVP + multiple stars


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Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2016, 09:15:37 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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The '14 Spurs had Duncan, but it was a 37-year-old very good Duncan, not the all-time great Duncan. If you blanked out the names on the jerseys and in the box scores, was that really the kind of star-studded team that this Celtics squad can't hope to mimic with a little more development and maybe one more defense-first semi-star addition to the frontcourt?
Leonard is considered a top 10 player at least.

The Spurs are deceiving because they don't need Parker and Duncan to do too much due to the system. But when the playoffs come, you see Leonard, Parker, and Duncan imposing their will at key moments.

Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2016, 09:16:04 PM »

Offline max215

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"WE are the superstar"
                       Jae Crowder

And yet, who are we looking up at in the standings?

Cavs -- Superstar + multiple stars
Spurs - Aging superstar, budding superstar (Kawhi), aging stars
Thunder - multiple superstars
Warriors - Reigning MVP + multiple stars

Don't forget the Clippers with their two superstars.
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Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2016, 09:17:30 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I bet if you add up our production at each position we are top of the league.  We also don't suffer the same drop off teams do because we have depth and don't have many players playing a ton of minutes. 

PG-Isaiah
SG-Bradley/Smart
SF-Crowder/Turner
PF-Sully/KO

I bet if you add up all these positions we are close to top of the league. Center is really the only position we are  average and Amir is serviceable and a good glue guy.  It makes sense why Ainge would target a young center to go with our group though when you look at it this way.  I'm tired of media speculation though in general.  The media just runs with stuff that isn't reality.

Sully and KO are a very good PF duo.  We are strong at guard.  We have an allstar in Isaiah.  Crowder and Turner and who we mix in is also strong.

KO is out, suddenly Sully's minutes jump. Whether he can play major minutes like that over long stretches is something else but as far as a duo they are very good.  We have depth behind him too.

On paper, I agree that our combinations of guys at most positions can probably compete (production wise) with other team's singlar star players.

For example, I believe that the combined production of Sully and Olynyk would be greater than the production of Horford or Olynyk on their own.

BUT

The key thing is that you can only have one of those guys on the court at a time, and that means that no matter which of those guys is in the court, you're always sacrificing something.

When Sully is on the court we gain rebounding and post defense, but we lose outside shooting, dribble penetration and the ability to defend quicker bigs. 

When Kelly gets in the game we gain outside shooting and dribble penetration, but we lose rebounding and we lost posts defense.

If you have an Al Horford in the game, then you have rebounding, you have post defense, you have outside shooting, and you have the ability do defend quicker bigs - all at the same time.  This means that at any one time, you have less holes/weaknesses in your game. 

Likewise Love would give you Olynyk's outside shooting and dribble penetration, but without sacrificing Sully's rebounding. 

That is the core difference between having a good starter (like Sully or Olynyk) versus a borderline star (like Horford or Love). 

How much you gain from that I think depends on the circumstances, and also on the versatility of the rest of your roster. 

Having Olyny sacrifices rebounding and low post scoring/defense, but if you can combine him with a big who can do those things (e.g. Dwight) then it's a moot point.

Having Sully sacrifices the ability to defend quicker bigs and the ability to stretch the floor, but if you have a big out there with him who can do those things (e.g. Thaddeous Young) then that becomes mostly a moot point.

You can be just as deadly a team without those star players IMHO, but it means you need to be far more careful of how you piece your rotations together. 

Once you get up into the realm of real superstars (like Anthony Davis, Karl Towns, Demarcus Cousins, etc) then it changes everything because those guys are so versatile and so incredibly skilled that the one star player on his own is good enough to do what an opponent's entire frontcourt can do...so you can pretty much add ANYBODY alongside that player and you will dominant their end of the court.

So are star players overrated?  Maybe, but superstar players certainly are not.

Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2016, 09:18:30 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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"WE are the superstar"
                       Jae Crowder

And yet, who are we looking up at in the standings?

Cavs -- Superstar + multiple stars
Spurs - Aging superstar, budding superstar (Kawhi), aging stars
Thunder - multiple superstars
Warriors - Reigning MVP + multiple stars

Don't forget the Clippers with their two superstars.

You also forgot the Raptors, who actually don't REALLY have any superstars...but do have two All-Stars in Lowry and Derozan.

Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2016, 09:18:36 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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The '14 Spurs had Duncan, but it was a 37-year-old very good Duncan, not the all-time great Duncan. If you blanked out the names on the jerseys and in the box scores, was that really the kind of star-studded team that this Celtics squad can't hope to mimic with a little more development and maybe one more defense-first semi-star addition to the frontcourt?
Leonard is considered a top 10 player at least.

The Spurs are deceiving because they don't need Parker and Duncan to do too much due to the system. But when the playoffs come, you see Leonard, Parker, and Duncan imposing their will at key moments.

Yeah, Leonard is considered that now. But in 2014? No. He's taken a huge step up the ladder since. At the time he was not a star.
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Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2016, 09:22:07 PM »

Offline max215

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The '14 Spurs had Duncan, but it was a 37-year-old very good Duncan, not the all-time great Duncan. If you blanked out the names on the jerseys and in the box scores, was that really the kind of star-studded team that this Celtics squad can't hope to mimic with a little more development and maybe one more defense-first semi-star addition to the frontcourt?
Leonard is considered a top 10 player at least.

The Spurs are deceiving because they don't need Parker and Duncan to do too much due to the system. But when the playoffs come, you see Leonard, Parker, and Duncan imposing their will at key moments.

Yeah, Leonard is considered that now. But in 2014? No. He's taken a huge step up the ladder since. At the time he was not a star.

Duncan at 15 and 10 with his defense probably qualifies as a star, not to mention this is the Spurs and they don't follow normal rules. Regardless, if you count the 2013-14 Spurs as a superstar-less champion, that makes just two in the last two decades.
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Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2016, 09:23:27 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Needing a superstar is often just math. At the end of the game, you can only put 5 guys on the floor at once. Having superstars means you have more talent on the floor. Also, the ball can only be in one guy's hand at a time.

It is great that we have a great system and great chemistry. But how about a great system with great chemistry and the ball in Curry's hands? Or in Leonard's or LMA's hands?

If you have decent talent and great system and chemistry, you can have success, like the Celtics.
If you have great talent and a mediocre system and chemistry, you can also have success, like OKC and Cleveland.

How do these teams go from having to success to winning a ring? It is easier for Cleveland or OKC to improve their chemistry/system in the next few months than for the Celtics to improve their talent.

Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2016, 09:23:42 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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The '14 Spurs had Duncan, but it was a 37-year-old very good Duncan, not the all-time great Duncan. If you blanked out the names on the jerseys and in the box scores, was that really the kind of star-studded team that this Celtics squad can't hope to mimic with a little more development and maybe one more defense-first semi-star addition to the frontcourt?
Leonard is considered a top 10 player at least.

The Spurs are deceiving because they don't need Parker and Duncan to do too much due to the system. But when the playoffs come, you see Leonard, Parker, and Duncan imposing their will at key moments.

Yeah, Leonard is considered that now. But in 2014? No. He's taken a huge step up the ladder since. At the time he was not a star.

He was considered a star-level player by some fans of advanced metrics.  He did not have the sort of PPG that makes the general public view him as a star.
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Re: Star players are overrated
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2016, 09:29:10 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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