Author Topic: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal  (Read 7684 times)

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Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« on: January 21, 2016, 04:54:38 AM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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On his podcast, Lowe suggested among a few others a trade between Boston and Cleveland revolving around David Lee's expiring, Jae Crowder and picks for Kevin Love.

I say Cavs say no as there is more value out there but considering how much of a salary cap dump they get with Lee and a burgeoning All-Star in Crowder with a very team friendly contract it is something that might get them thinking.

What picks do you think would get it done? Is it a good deal for Boston?

Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2016, 05:30:23 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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When the Cavs discord rumors started flying again recently I wondered what it would take for the Cs to get Love, and unfortunately I came to the same conclusion as Lowe: Crowder would basically have to be included in any deal. He's perfect for them because he can defend 4 positions, shoot 3s, provide hustle, and even rimrun a little bit. Also, a luxury tax team like Cleveland would appreciate his relatively cheap contract even more.

I say unfortunately because for all those reasons I would like to keep Crowder here. I know Love is a "star" and probably more valuable, but he is a flawed star in that he's a big man who can't play defense. We could really use the rebounding and spacing he would provide though.

I'm really torn. Lowe was of the opinion that Crowder/Nets pick was too much while Crowder/Mavs or C's pick was too little, but I think Crowder has been so good this year that the latter is actually a fair offer.

I'm curious how people feel about dealing Crowder for Love. I suspect there may be more fans out there who are reluctant to do it.

Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2016, 05:35:14 AM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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On paper, at least according to common wisdom, it'd be a win. But I think Love-as-anchor is fool's gold for any team that really, really wants to win a championship. He cares a little too much about what that paper says, too. And on other paper, at least according to some advanced stats, Crowder might now be just as valuable overall. Even if Love returned to a 2014 level of production, how much better than the mediocre 2014 Wolves would the Celtics then really be, without Crowder? And if the point is to pair Love with another superstar like Durant, well...how much better than LeBron of a pairing partner can you possibly get, not to mention Kyrie, so how can one expect a better outcome? I also don't think Crowder is quite done improving his game, there's still one more level up he can break through to, perhaps the outer margins of the Kawhi/Draymond zone. Hold on to Crowder, indefinitely, and hold on to the salary space and the picks that'd be required to add Love and hold out for the special opportunity to steal a legit two-way franchise-changing big man, be it Simmons or Cousins or who can really say.
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Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2016, 06:12:45 AM »

Offline Smartacus

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On paper, at least according to common wisdom, it'd be a win. But I think Love-as-anchor is fool's gold for any team that really, really wants to win a championship. He cares a little too much about what that paper says, too. And on other paper, at least according to some advanced stats, Crowder might now be just as valuable overall. Even if Love returned to a 2014 level of production, how much better than the mediocre 2014 Wolves would the Celtics then really be, without Crowder? And if the point is to pair Love with another superstar like Durant, well...how much better than LeBron of a pairing partner can you possibly get, not to mention Kyrie, so how can one expect a better outcome? I also don't think Crowder is quite done improving his game, there's still one more level up he can break through to, perhaps the outer margins of the Kawhi/Draymond zone. Hold on to Crowder, indefinitely, and hold on to the salary space and the picks that'd be required to add Love and hold out for the special opportunity to steal a legit two-way franchise-changing big man, be it Simmons or Cousins or who can really say.

I'm going to hit you with the entirely opposite side of this trade. Everyone assumes that Love is the inflated player in this deal as bad as sounds what if Crowder is?

We all love Crowder for his improved shooting, his defensive acumen, and in general his character(although IMO he's been barking at refs a lot lately)... Meanwhile Kevin Love has been almost universally reviled as a stat padding whiner who couldn't lead in Minny and can't fit in in Cleveland, but the the one thing we all can seem to agree on is his talent. On an admittedly bad team with limitless opportunity Love produced like a top 10-15 player.

Have we really gone so far into this rebuild that we've forgotten the golden rule of trading out of mediocirty... Take the best player and run.

Many of us assume that Crowder is this diamond in the rough and we'd be nuts to trade him and he's improved every year and he's a leader and Danny found our starting SF for the future. Well what if Crowder is another case of Minnesotta Love?

What if Jae Crowder is over achieving in the perfect situation, filling in the cracks left by shoot first high attention grabbing guards and offense first, finesse big men? Personally I think many of us are in danger of overvaluing an asset.

If the hangup in a Kevin Love trade is Jae Crowder I'd do it without a second thought. Crowder is a rare blue chip piece to use a Bill Simmons term. The type of asset you don't reach contention by holding onto, but by cashing in when the right opportunity presents itself.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 06:21:21 AM by Smartacus »

Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2016, 06:50:11 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I think SF are one of the easiest positions to draft or develop. Seems like every year a new guy comes up as elite in this position.  I think the biggest impact would be losing a guy with a lot of heart for a heartless guy in Love.  That being said, Love is the better player.

Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2016, 07:20:19 AM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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On paper, at least according to common wisdom, it'd be a win. But I think Love-as-anchor is fool's gold for any team that really, really wants to win a championship. He cares a little too much about what that paper says, too. And on other paper, at least according to some advanced stats, Crowder might now be just as valuable overall. Even if Love returned to a 2014 level of production, how much better than the mediocre 2014 Wolves would the Celtics then really be, without Crowder? And if the point is to pair Love with another superstar like Durant, well...how much better than LeBron of a pairing partner can you possibly get, not to mention Kyrie, so how can one expect a better outcome? I also don't think Crowder is quite done improving his game, there's still one more level up he can break through to, perhaps the outer margins of the Kawhi/Draymond zone. Hold on to Crowder, indefinitely, and hold on to the salary space and the picks that'd be required to add Love and hold out for the special opportunity to steal a legit two-way franchise-changing big man, be it Simmons or Cousins or who can really say.

I'm going to hit you with the entirely opposite side of this trade. Everyone assumes that Love is the inflated player in this deal as bad as sounds what if Crowder is?

We all love Crowder for his improved shooting, his defensive acumen, and in general his character(although IMO he's been barking at refs a lot lately)... Meanwhile Kevin Love has been almost universally reviled as a stat padding whiner who couldn't lead in Minny and can't fit in in Cleveland, but the the one thing we all can seem to agree on is his talent. On an admittedly bad team with limitless opportunity Love produced like a top 10-15 player.

The inverse of that is equally true: When Love is producing like a top 10-15 player, it takes limitless opportunity, and results in a meh team.

Quote
Have we really gone so far into this rebuild that we've forgotten the golden rule of trading out of mediocirty... Take the best player and run.

That's how we wound up with Bob McAdoo, once upon a time. (Yes, if fate then unfolded the same way, then we could convert Love the next year into what would eventually turn into the equivalent of Parish and McHale, but probably better to just skip straight to that part this time, lol.) Traded out of mediocrity, into a flashier mediocrity, at the cost of higher upside opportunities. At least with KG, he had proven that he could lead a bad team deep into the playoffs by himself. No such evidence for Love. And the evidence we do have...

Quote
Many of us assume that Crowder is this diamond in the rough and we'd be nuts to trade him and he's improved every year and he's a leader and Danny found our starting SF for the future. Well what if Crowder is another case of Minnesotta Love?

What if Jae Crowder is over achieving in the perfect situation, filling in the cracks left by shoot first high attention grabbing guards and offense first, finesse big men? Personally I think many of us are in danger of overvaluing an asset.

You said it: Overachieving in the cracks.
If anything, I think we're probably still undervaluing him.

Quote
If the hangup in a Kevin Love trade is Jae Crowder I'd do it without a second thought. Crowder is a rare blue chip piece to use a Bill Simmons term. The type of asset you don't reach contention by holding onto, but by cashing in when the right opportunity presents itself.

Okay, so we cash Crowder in for Love. What would the best possible next step be? We could not possibly hope for any acquisition as good as, say, LeBron, right? And if Ainge could somehow pry away LeBron from Cleveland, too...well, shucks, can you imagine how excited we would be if Ainge could then also acquire a third piece as improbably elite as, oh, say, Kyrie Irving? Wow! What a moist, homerific dream! How blessed we'd be! The sky would be the limit! Right? Well, no. Third best team in the league and a nearly assured Finals loss is the limit, as we can plainly see. How would an almost-as-unlikely rich man's backup plan of pairing Love with either, say, Simmons or Durant possibly work better?

I mean, it's possible that if Love had stayed in Minny he could've wound up leading a barely-improved Wolves into the playoffs last year or this. But he's never going to dramatically improve his defense. He'd be able to provide the offensive impact of prime Garnett, but never even remotely the defensive impact, besides defensive rebounding stats inflated by a stat-seeking mentality. If he hadn't gone to Cleveland and been exposed as inessential, it wouldn't have been believable to suggest such a possibility. But he did, the results are in, and the results are underwhelming, and the evidence strongly suggests the need to reevaluate Love's value both now, before, and going forward.
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Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2016, 07:32:50 AM »

Offline Who

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I don't think Crowder has that type of trade value (yet?). He needs to play like he has recently for longer to prove he can sustain this level of performance.

Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2016, 07:37:48 AM »

Offline JSD

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With the way the NBA is right now going small, I'm not sure I would trade Crowder for Love.

Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2016, 09:22:24 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I'd take Love over Carmelo Anthony or Blake Griffin.
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Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2016, 09:32:50 AM »

Offline ssspence

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I'd take Love over Blake Griffin.

David Griffin, is that you?

I think Ainge would really really struggle to give up Crowder here. For Love, that is. He'd ship 5 Crowders to Doc for Blake if he could.
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Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2016, 10:04:17 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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Lowe actually only mentioned Crowder, he didn't mention what else it would take (but it would obviously take more than just Jae).

The other trades he mentioned though (KCP, Ilysova, Morris, a first) make it seem like it wouldn't take a whole lot to get Love (at least in Lowe's opinion)
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Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2016, 10:16:46 AM »

Offline footey

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I'd rather have Crowder on my team than Love. He fits the modern NBA premium on multi-position defender, who has become a deadly 3 point shooter.  Kind of like Bruce Bowen on steroids.

Love kind of is a combination of Sully and Ollie: Has Sully's rebounding acumen, and Ollie's outside shooting touch.  Not sure we really have a need for Love. I just don't view him as the center-piece player to a championship run, which is probably why Cleveland is looking for ways to deal him. He might make more sense being traded to the Lakers.

Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2016, 10:44:30 AM »

Offline jbpats

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Who starts at the 3 if we do this? Turner?
I wouldn't make this trade for the sole reason we are loaded at 1's, 2's and 4's.. I think our lineup would be too uneven.

Keep Jae.

Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2016, 10:47:06 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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I would not make this trade at all.  Love could be good for us, better than in Cleveland, but I would just rather go many other directions with players of a different kind of demeanor.  Trading a guy like Crowder for a guy like Love is the opposite of what I want the team identity to be.
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Re: Recent Zach Lowe trade proposal
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2016, 10:58:43 AM »

Offline GryphMinuteMan

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It's an interesting proposal but I still don't get why Love being traded is being discussed. They just singed him to a 5 year deal. Is it really that bad for Cleveland right now that they would give up on him? I love Crowder but if you can get Love for him and a non Brooklyn 2016 pick you probably have to do it. I wouldn't do it for Crowder and the Brooklyn pick though.