Author Topic: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers  (Read 14362 times)

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Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2016, 02:47:35 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Where are all the people who said binkie Hinkie was still in complete control of the team?
Where are those people?...   Predicting this EXACT outcome a month before it happened:

Phase II of the rebuild probably would have started this offseason had Embiid been healthy and Saric came over.   It'll start this Summer.  Unless you consider signing Elton Brand and maybe a couple small-level trades to bring in a PG "the beginning of Phase II", this team will tank until the Summer and deal with it then (as they should... and as they have clearly been planning to do). 


Elton Brand = Elton Brand
Small level trade to bring in a PG = Two 2nd rounders for Ish Smith
Tank until offseason = Tank until the offseason

Mostly just placating the rabble-rousers.  I wouldn't be stunned to see Noel or Okafor moved before the deadline, but they aren't giving either away for free.

Wake me up when the sell Embiid or Saric to the highest bidder and trade away their unprotected 1st.

Or all these moves have come from Jerry Colangelo putting pressure.

It sure as heck doesn't seem like a coincidence.
One way to look at it, I guess.   No harm in bringing in Ish and Brand.  They will still likely have the worst record in the league. 

And judging by the "Colangelo's making his presence felt!" reaction, I'd say it's serving the purpose of quieting the critics.   

Quote from Brand:

Quote
I’m not coming here to hold Jahlil’s hand — or anyone else’s, for that matter — because that’s not what he needs. But I do believe my experience and wisdom can benefit him and my other young teammates. It’s about communicating with them like men, starting to grow together, and — hopefully, eventually — winning some ballgames. That’s what Sam Hinkie and I talked about when he approached me about joining the team, and what has me so excited about this opportunity.

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2016, 02:55:42 PM »

Offline TheFlex

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Where are all the people who said binkie Hinkie was still in complete control of the team?
Where are those people?...   Predicting this EXACT outcome a month before it happened:

Phase II of the rebuild probably would have started this offseason had Embiid been healthy and Saric came over.   It'll start this Summer.  Unless you consider signing Elton Brand and maybe a couple small-level trades to bring in a PG "the beginning of Phase II", this team will tank until the Summer and deal with it then (as they should... and as they have clearly been planning to do). 


Elton Brand = Elton Brand
Small level trade to bring in a PG = Two 2nd rounders for Ish Smith
Tank until offseason = Tank until the offseason

Mostly just placating the rabble-rousers.  I wouldn't be stunned to see Noel or Okafor moved before the deadline, but they aren't giving either away for free.

Wake me up when the sell Embiid or Saric to the highest bidder and trade away their unprotected 1st.

Or all these moves have come from Jerry Colangelo putting pressure.

It sure as heck doesn't seem like a coincidence.

Yes, it is not hard to tell that Hinkle has lost some control, though there is of course a way, however deceitful, to claim that these types of moves were coming regardless of Colangelo and that it's all just a coincidence.

LarBrd is right in that the moves the Sixers have made and will realistically make within the boundary of this season are not likely to be all that tangibly impactful, and that the course of the Sixers is still on track: get a bottom 3 pick, take another stud prospect, choose between Okafor/Noel, and start trying to win. What he chooses to ignore though, is that Hinkie would never trade 2nds for a guy that already has them playing better but in the grand scheme of things isn't a difference maker, or cut Wood to make room for E. Brand, without outside pressure. That indicates that he has lost some control, which in itself could have a very real impact on Philly's future, good or bad. It is not business as usual, no matter how easy it is to push that narrative.

It is pretty funny that LB predicted they'd sign Elton Brand, though.


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Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2016, 03:01:43 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Where are all the people who said binkie Hinkie was still in complete control of the team?
Where are those people?...   Predicting this EXACT outcome a month before it happened:

Phase II of the rebuild probably would have started this offseason had Embiid been healthy and Saric came over.   It'll start this Summer.  Unless you consider signing Elton Brand and maybe a couple small-level trades to bring in a PG "the beginning of Phase II", this team will tank until the Summer and deal with it then (as they should... and as they have clearly been planning to do). 


Elton Brand = Elton Brand
Small level trade to bring in a PG = Two 2nd rounders for Ish Smith
Tank until offseason = Tank until the offseason

Mostly just placating the rabble-rousers.  I wouldn't be stunned to see Noel or Okafor moved before the deadline, but they aren't giving either away for free.

Wake me up when the sell Embiid or Saric to the highest bidder and trade away their unprotected 1st.

Or all these moves have come from Jerry Colangelo putting pressure.

It sure as heck doesn't seem like a coincidence.

Yes, it is not hard to tell that Hinkle has lost some control, though there is of course a way, however deceitful, to claim that these types of moves were coming regardless of Colangelo and that it's all just a coincidence.

LarBrd is right in that the moves the Sixers have made and will realistically make within the boundary of this season are not likely to be all that tangibly impactful, and that the course of the Sixers is still on track: get a bottom 3 pick, take another stud prospect, choose between Okafor/Noel, and start trying to win. What he chooses to ignore though, is that Hinkie would never trade 2nds for a guy that already has them playing better but in the grand scheme of things isn't a difference maker, or cut Wood to make room for E. Brand, without outside pressure. That indicates that he has lost some control, which in itself could have a very real impact on Philly's future, good or bad. It is not business as usual, no matter how easy it is to push that narrative.

It is pretty funny that LB predicted they'd sign Elton Brand, though.
First, to clarify, Zach Lowe pointed out the Elton Brand thing before I did.   Hinkie had been talking to him for a while.   

Second, in regards to the bolded...   Philly needs a PG and Ish clearly had chemistry with Noel (in the games they have played together last year, Noel averaged 15 points, 12 rebounds, 3 blocks, 3 steals with 56% shooting). 

It can be argued that paying two 2nds for Ish was a necessary move to crank up the waning trade value of Noel and prove that he's still an outstanding prospect.   In the 5 games since Ish was put back into the starting lineup, Noel has averaged:  16 points, 9.2 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 2.2 blocks, 2.4 steals, with 71% shooting in 27.6mpg. 

If in the long run, bringing in Ish was necessary towards getting a team like Boston to cough up an asset like Marcus Smart for Noel, it was probably worth the two 2nds.  2nds grow on trees in this league anyways.  If teams were gun-shy about a move for Noel or thought he had "regressed", his play alongside Ish has tempered those concerns and proven he's still an excellent prospect as long as he's playing with NBA-caliber players and playing his natural Center position (he's spent the bulk of this season playing out of position).   It's also clear from Noel's own comments that his enthusiasm had been waning and it likely had impacted his effort level.  This season hadn't been fun for him (can you blame him?).  Having no PG and playing out of position was stunting his development.  He was also reportedly close with Ish Smith last season.  For those who believe Noel will be the one Philly keeps (with Okafor getting moved), an argument could be made that the move was more about placating a clearly disgruntled franchise cornerstone and getting him to re-focus.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 03:08:39 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2016, 03:15:01 PM »

Offline colincb

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 I'd be surprised if Hinkie's around two years from now. More likely Jerry C brings in Brian C to take over and then rides off into the sunset. For once I don't disagree with Larbrd33 and I also don't expect any major player moves before this summer. They're too locked in to tanking with this team as structured to make any real change to upgrade their team.

I do think they'll go in a different direction thereafter and pay a lot more attention to player development than they have with Hinkie. I also think they give up on the tank forever until the next Lebron, MJ, or whatever other transcendent player shows up. Hinkie executed his plan well, it just wasn't a great plan. If all their IFs go right, they could be in very good position going forward, but the odds don't favor that and I'm skeptical that some of their assets will work out. Getting the LA pick this year would be huge AND getting Simmons or Ingram would be especially huge. I think the LA pick next year could be worth far less.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 03:51:56 PM by colincb »

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2016, 03:24:04 PM »

Offline MBunge

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an argument could be made that the move was more about placating a clearly disgruntled franchise cornerstone and getting him to re-focus.

Anyone who thinks Noel is a franchise cornerstone is a fool.  He's a franchise player the way Diekembe Mutombo was a franchise player.  You'd love to have a guy like that but if he's the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd best player on your team, you're probably not winning anything.

Mike

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2016, 03:38:31 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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an argument could be made that the move was more about placating a clearly disgruntled franchise cornerstone and getting him to re-focus.

Anyone who thinks Noel is a franchise cornerstone is a fool.  He's a franchise player the way Diekembe Mutombo was a franchise player.  You'd love to have a guy like that but if he's the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd best player on your team, you're probably not winning anything.

Mike
My definition of franchise cornerstone is different than franchise player.   Marcus Smart theoretically is a franchise cornerstone for us... he'll never be a franchise player, but he pencils in as a long term starter.  Actually Smart might be a long-term role player off the bench, for the sake of argument, I'll say that we hope long-term he's a key starting cog to our long-term machine.   Maybe i need a less confusing term.  I'm talking about guys you pencil in as long-term starters.   By that, Mutumbo was absolutely a cornerstone. 

Noel pencils in (barring injury) as a long term cornerstone.  He should be a defensive center getting yearly consideration for DPOY if all goes as planned.  He was clearly unhappy this year.  The fun was gone.   Bringing back Ish was a good move for them.  I think it's considerably unlikely that Ish Smith is PHilly's starting PG long term, but I get why they brought him in right now.  Serves a lot of purposes.

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2016, 03:41:12 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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I don't know if Brand will provide much veteran leadership but I have to say, the 76ers are PROBABLY looking to start improving after this season. With a team that young, filled with potential, they need some veteran presence in there. Far as I can tell or have read, Brand is welcoming the idea of being a veteran leader for the 76ers. It might be step of 1 of steering the ship around.

I say only time can tell, and see what other moves the 76ers are going to do.

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2016, 06:30:39 PM »

Offline jambr380

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an argument could be made that the move was more about placating a clearly disgruntled franchise cornerstone and getting him to re-focus.

Anyone who thinks Noel is a franchise cornerstone is a fool.  He's a franchise player the way Diekembe Mutombo was a franchise player.  You'd love to have a guy like that but if he's the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd best player on your team, you're probably not winning anything.

Mike
My definition of franchise cornerstone is different than franchise player.   Marcus Smart theoretically is a franchise cornerstone for us... he'll never be a franchise player, but he pencils in as a long term starter.  Actually Smart might be a long-term role player off the bench, for the sake of argument, I'll say that we hope long-term he's a key starting cog to our long-term machine.   Maybe i need a less confusing term.  I'm talking about guys you pencil in as long-term starters.   By that, Mutumbo was absolutely a cornerstone. 

Noel pencils in (barring injury) as a long term cornerstone.  He should be a defensive center getting yearly consideration for DPOY if all goes as planned.  He was clearly unhappy this year.  The fun was gone.   Bringing back Ish was a good move for them.  I think it's considerably unlikely that Ish Smith is PHilly's starting PG long term, but I get why they brought him in right now.  Serves a lot of purposes.

Mutombo was pretty clearly the 2nd best player on the Sixers team that went to the finals. Without him, that team would have had a very difficult time getting past the first round. Iverson was obviously by far their best player, but Mutombo set the identity for that Sixers team.

On another note, imagine the increase in the athleticism of our front court if we traded for Noel and Mickey developed into a solid starter - exciting to think about.

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2016, 07:05:38 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I don't know if Brand will provide much veteran leadership but I have to say, the 76ers are PROBABLY looking to start improving after this season. With a team that young, filled with potential, they need some veteran presence in there. Far as I can tell or have read, Brand is welcoming the idea of being a veteran leader for the 76ers. It might be step of 1 of steering the ship around.

I say only time can tell, and see what other moves the 76ers are going to do.
Sure... and it's reasonable to assume that something like 5 of their top 6 players next year aren't on the roster this year.


Embiid (still firmly in the minority that believes he'll play... we've seen recent success with bone graft surgery ... Durant comes to mind)
Saric - isn't he coming finally?
Their top 3 pick - Simmons?   Ingram?  Brown?
Whatever they get for Noel or Okafor ... Marcus Smart?
Whichever is left out of Noel and okafor
45% chance they get a 4-7 pick from the Lakers - Skal?  Bender?  Dunn?
Whatever they get with Miami's 1st
Whatever they get with OKC's 1st
Whatever they manage to sign in free agency with 80 mil in cap space the the widespread belief that Colangelo is now calling the shots

I don't know why people even argue against it.  It's going to be an entirely different team next year no matter what.   

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2016, 09:33:17 PM »

Online Moranis

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Carl Landry recently came back, just having him around on the bench and for leadership has made a difference, as had Ish Smith.  I think Hinkie was hoping that Wroten would be more than a drive and score player, but that is what he was.  When it was apparent that Wroten hadn't developed more traditional PG skills, they made the move for Smith, who started about the time Landry came back and when they swapped Noel and Okafor in the starting lineup.  Tonight's game, both Noel and Okafor started.
2025 Historical Draft - Cleveland Cavaliers - 1st pick

Starters - Luka, JB, Lebron, Wemby, Shaq
Rotation - D. Daniels, Mitchell, G. Wallace, Melo, Noah
Deep Bench - Korver, Turner

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2016, 09:37:03 PM »

Online Moranis

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BTW, Landry is scoring 9.3 ppg in just over 15 minutes and shooting 50% from the field.  He has made a huge difference on their bench. 
2025 Historical Draft - Cleveland Cavaliers - 1st pick

Starters - Luka, JB, Lebron, Wemby, Shaq
Rotation - D. Daniels, Mitchell, G. Wallace, Melo, Noah
Deep Bench - Korver, Turner

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2016, 09:36:46 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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Where are all the people who said binkie Hinkie was still in complete control of the team?
Where are those people?...   Predicting this EXACT outcome a month before it happened:

Phase II of the rebuild probably would have started this offseason had Embiid been healthy and Saric came over.   It'll start this Summer.  Unless you consider signing Elton Brand and maybe a couple small-level trades to bring in a PG "the beginning of Phase II", this team will tank until the Summer and deal with it then (as they should... and as they have clearly been planning to do). 


Elton Brand = Elton Brand
Small level trade to bring in a PG = Two 2nd rounders for Ish Smith
Tank until offseason = Tank until the offseason

Mostly just placating the rabble-rousers.  I wouldn't be stunned to see Noel or Okafor moved before the deadline, but they aren't giving either away for free.

Wake me up when the sell Embiid or Saric to the highest bidder and trade away their unprotected 1st.

Now I can confirm that you're either Hinkie's Assistant or Sam Hinkie himself!  ;D JK of course.

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2016, 10:03:36 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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an argument could be made that the move was more about placating a clearly disgruntled franchise cornerstone and getting him to re-focus.

Anyone who thinks Noel is a franchise cornerstone is a fool.  He's a franchise player the way Diekembe Mutombo was a franchise player.  You'd love to have a guy like that but if he's the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd best player on your team, you're probably not winning anything.

Mike
My definition of franchise cornerstone is different than franchise player.   Marcus Smart theoretically is a franchise cornerstone for us... he'll never be a franchise player, but he pencils in as a long term starter.  Actually Smart might be a long-term role player off the bench, for the sake of argument, I'll say that we hope long-term he's a key starting cog to our long-term machine.   Maybe i need a less confusing term.  I'm talking about guys you pencil in as long-term starters.   By that, Mutumbo was absolutely a cornerstone. 

Noel pencils in (barring injury) as a long term cornerstone.  He should be a defensive center getting yearly consideration for DPOY if all goes as planned.  He was clearly unhappy this year.  The fun was gone.   Bringing back Ish was a good move for them.  I think it's considerably unlikely that Ish Smith is PHilly's starting PG long term, but I get why they brought him in right now.  Serves a lot of purposes.

Yeah, you aren't trolling about for attention with comments like these.

Why?

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2016, 01:43:44 AM »

Offline MBunge

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I don't know if Brand will provide much veteran leadership but I have to say, the 76ers are PROBABLY looking to start improving after this season. With a team that young, filled with potential, they need some veteran presence in there. Far as I can tell or have read, Brand is welcoming the idea of being a veteran leader for the 76ers. It might be step of 1 of steering the ship around.

I say only time can tell, and see what other moves the 76ers are going to do.
Sure... and it's reasonable to assume that something like 5 of their top 6 players next year aren't on the roster this year.


Embiid (still firmly in the minority that believes he'll play... we've seen recent success with bone graft surgery ... Durant comes to mind)
Saric - isn't he coming finally?
Their top 3 pick - Simmons?   Ingram?  Brown?
Whatever they get for Noel or Okafor ... Marcus Smart?
Whichever is left out of Noel and okafor
45% chance they get a 4-7 pick from the Lakers - Skal?  Bender?  Dunn?
Whatever they get with Miami's 1st
Whatever they get with OKC's 1st
Whatever they manage to sign in free agency with 80 mil in cap space the the widespread belief that Colangelo is now calling the shots

I don't know why people even argue against it.  It's going to be an entirely different team next year no matter what.

That's a lot of variables still in play for a team that will have tanked for three solid years.

2 guys who have never played in the NBA.
4 draft picks, the best of which could be as low as #4, another they may not even get and two that may produce no better than decent role players.
Trading one of their best young assets when his value is relatively low.
The remaining young asset who will be either all offense, no D or all defense, no O.
Competing for free agents with numerous other teams that have plenty of cap space and will all offer more stable environments with greater opportunities to win.

Mike

Re: Elton Brand joins Philadelphia 76ers
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2016, 01:12:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I don't know if Brand will provide much veteran leadership but I have to say, the 76ers are PROBABLY looking to start improving after this season. With a team that young, filled with potential, they need some veteran presence in there. Far as I can tell or have read, Brand is welcoming the idea of being a veteran leader for the 76ers. It might be step of 1 of steering the ship around.

I say only time can tell, and see what other moves the 76ers are going to do.
Sure... and it's reasonable to assume that something like 5 of their top 6 players next year aren't on the roster this year.


Embiid (still firmly in the minority that believes he'll play... we've seen recent success with bone graft surgery ... Durant comes to mind)
Saric - isn't he coming finally?
Their top 3 pick - Simmons?   Ingram?  Brown?
Whatever they get for Noel or Okafor ... Marcus Smart?
Whichever is left out of Noel and okafor
45% chance they get a 4-7 pick from the Lakers - Skal?  Bender?  Dunn?
Whatever they get with Miami's 1st
Whatever they get with OKC's 1st
Whatever they manage to sign in free agency with 80 mil in cap space the the widespread belief that Colangelo is now calling the shots

I don't know why people even argue against it.  It's going to be an entirely different team next year no matter what.

That's a lot of variables still in play for a team that will have tanked for three solid years.

2 guys who have never played in the NBA.
4 draft picks, the best of which could be as low as #4, another they may not even get and two that may produce no better than decent role players.
Trading one of their best young assets when his value is relatively low.
The remaining young asset who will be either all offense, no D or all defense, no O.
Competing for free agents with numerous other teams that have plenty of cap space and will all offer more stable environments with greater opportunities to win.

Mike

  Not to mention a limited time frame. Those bigs will start coming off of their rookie contracts soon and probably won't be looking to re-up with a perennially losing franchise.