How many players at the 4 or 5 are a clear upgrade to Sully?

[Hemingway]

I think most of us agree that the easiest way to get to contention soon is to bring in help at the 4 or 5 while keeping what we have the is already working (the 1 2 and 3.) The problem is, there are just not that many guys out there. Lets assume that Ainge is not going to bring Sully back next year and wants to move him plus picks and Lee if needed to match contracts to get a star. Let's also assume he will make a call on anyone he wants regardless of if they are on the block or not. How many calls does he make?

Davis
Cousins
Gasol
Horford
Howard....

help me out here. so side ways or marginal gain moves. Who is clearly much better than Sully right now and plays the 4 or 5?

[chambers]

That are potentially available ?
Maybe Kevin Love, Zac Randolph?

[alewilliam789]

Realistic options??
I'd say Paul Gasol, Demarcus Cousins, or Dwight Howard.

I wouldn't be opposed to landing any of these players at C because we 1. have depth at power foward and 2. they would be clear upgrades both offensively and defensively over any options we have at the 5.

[Csfan1984]

4s over Sully
Davis, KO, Towns, Ibaka, Milsap, ZBo, Gasol, Griffin, LA, Green, Bosh, Love, Dirk,

5s over Sully
Gasol, Cousins, Drummond, Howard, Vucevic, Val, Hordford, Jordan, Duncan, KG, Favors, Monroe,

[Future Celtics Owner]

Sully is a gamble. Its 50/50 or worse odds that if we pay him it will haunt us. The writing is on the wall: bad back, bad attitude, uses his gifted hands and talents to be lazy and not lose fat......its a big gamble and I wish we traded him after his 2nd year or beginning of 3rd.

One guy that could help right now and signed an extension this summer, 4 years 44m, is John Henson.  He is younger than KO and I believe would be a great bargain as far as what we would need to give up. Think about the IT trade, its kind of the same deal, both are on team friendly contracts(if henson produces for the celts given more minutes). Henson could even show out and be a trade chip.

Because the floor spacing is a huge problem when Henson plays with Monroe, he rarely gets time. When he does he has produced most of the time.....I'm talking about max 20minutes or maybe more or less. His contract starts next year. 11 million a year for a guy who is averaging 15mpg and getting 1.7 blocks,6.3 ppg, 4 rpg, 1 apg

He also is long. Posters on here that have been around for awhile can recite length and size measurements because so many posters like myself love talking length and athletic measurements.

Henson is 6'11'' with shoes
7'5'' wingspan
9'4'' standing reach

[clover]

Kelly Olynyk--but he's already on the team.

 

[Celtics4ever]

Quite a few, he has two elite skills, rebounding and he is top ten in passing.  These are his stats where he ranks among Centers

By Hollinger's rankings 
7th in Rebound Rate
9th in Passing
22nd in Value Added
22nd in Estimated Win added  with 2.3
25th in PER
53rd in TS% with .47

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/trueShootingPct

6th is Steals
8th in RPG
17th in Scoring
17th in FG Percentage   at .424%  Note he is still shooting threes at  .27% clip this year
24th in Fouls Commited
29th in BPG

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/fieldGoalPct/position/centers

CBS has Sully as a PF.

He is 14th in there PF total playing ranking

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerrankings/regularseason/PF

Now he is playing out of his natural position, in his defense.   But one could argue that his stats might be worse in some areas if he was playing PF.   He is a lot slower than some PF and generally has an athletic disadvantage against them.   C's are more in his athletic range, but then he is a not really a C in terms of height.   Brad does not use these positions and it is the NBA that classified him as a C.   Brad uses bigs.

Looking at these stats, he is a nifty passer, good at steals and a good rebounder.   The rest of his skillset is mediocre to poor though he is less foul prone than he used to be in the past.   His offensive game in not good and it is not just about the shots he takes.    He has posted this kinds of shooting percentages since he has been in the league with little or no improvement and in some cases he has regressed.   Truth be told, I hear he is a rotational player that has been thrust into starting.

4s over Sully
Davis, KO, Towns, Ibaka, Milsap, ZBo, Gasol, Griffin, LA, Green, Bosh, Love, Dirk,

5s over Sully
Gasol, Cousins, Drummond, Howard, Vucevic, Val, Hordford, Jordan, Duncan, KG, Favors, Monroe,

This is patently absurd.   I posted these stats so you could see there a quite a few guys that one could are better overall than him.   If what you claim is true, then why no talk of him being an all-star?  You will not find any talk like that outside of Columbus, Ohio or Boston.

He is a mixed bag, each year he starts on fire.   Then the wear and tear of the season takes a toll on him.   His numbers drop and he gets injured has been the pattern of the last few years.   We all hoped this year would be different.   I think he came into camp into better shape, but it still was not enough in the beginning.   It showed some early promise, but he is beginning to falter again, I think.  Let us hope the rest helped him.

That are potentially available ?
Maybe Kevin Love, Zac Randolph?

Realistically this is what it boils down too.

[Celtics4ever]

   nERD   nF EFF   Fantasy   MPG   PPG   RPG   APG
Paul Millsap (FC, ATL)   11.0   3.1   7.51   33.1   17.8   8.8   3.3
Chris Bosh (FC, MIA)   10.7   3.4   4.86   33.0   18.0   8.0   2.3
DeAndre Jordan (C, LAC)   10.6   3.2   4.67   32.8   11.0   13.2   0.8
Hassan Whiteside (C, MIA)   10.3   3.8   5.00   28.3   12.6   11.1   0.2
Derrick Favors (FC, UTAH)   9.5   3.3   3.43   32.6   16.8   8.6   1.5
Kevin Love (FC, CLE)   9.3   3.0   4.24   33.1   17.2   10.9   2.6
Dirk Nowitzki (FC, DAL)   9.2   3.2   5.16   30.1   17.5   7.0   1.9
Enes Kanter (C, OKC)   9.1   4.3   -0.30   20.4   11.4   8.2   0.6
LaMarcus Aldridge (FC, SA)   8.2   2.8   2.08   29.6   15.8   8.8   1.3
Andre Drummond (FC, DET)   7.9   2.2   6.71   35.1   18.2   16.1   1.0
Blake Griffin (FC, LAC)   7.8   2.2   4.77   34.9   23.2   8.7   5.0
Tim Duncan (FC, SA)   7.6   3.0   1.55   26.6   9.0   8.0   3.0
Festus Ezeli (C, GS)   6.7   3.4   -1.84   19.8   8.6   6.6   0.9
Tristan Thompson (FC, CLE)   6.2   2.5   -1.52   26.9   7.1   9.9   0.8
Pau Gasol (FC, CHI)   6.1   2.2   4.06   30.7   16.1   10.9   2.9
Nikola Vucevic (FC, ORL)   6.1   2.3   3.05   30.3   16.7   8.7   2.5
Ian Mahinmi (C, IND)   5.9   2.6   -0.64   24.2   8.0   7.1   1.4
Karl-Anthony Towns (C, MIN)   5.6   2.0   5.72   28.3   15.9   9.4   1.0
Zaza Pachulia (C, DAL)   5.6   2.0   0.74   28.3   10.0   10.4   1.8
Ed Davis (FC, POR)   5.5   2.4   -1.15   22.0   6.9   7.6   1.1
Andrew Bogut (C, GS)   5.2   3.5   -0.88   20.0   5.5   7.0   2.2
Greg Monroe (FC, MIL)   5.2   1.8   4.08   30.8   15.6   9.5   2.6
Jordan Hill (FC, IND)   4.9   2.4   -0.91   23.1   10.0   7.9   1.3
Steven Adams (C, OKC)   4.8   2.0   -1.26   23.7   6.2   6.2   0.6
Nikola Jokic (C, DEN)   4.8   2.8   -0.71   18.4   8.6   5.4   1.1
Al Horford (FC, ATL)   4.6   1.4   5.56   31.3   15.0   6.9   2.9
Anthony Davis (FC, NO)   4.5   1.4   7.71   36.4   23.6   10.9   1.5
Clint Capela (FC, HOU)   4.3   2.0   -0.58   20.5   7.9   7.0   0.7
Serge Ibaka (FC, OKC)   4.3   1.3   3.79   32.1   13.4   7.1   0.8
Cody Zeller (FC, CHA)   3.9   1.9   -1.90   22.8   8.2   5.1   1.0
Jonas Valanciunas (C, TOR)   3.7   2.8   -3.31   27.3   12.7   9.3   0.4
Taj Gibson (FC, CHI)   3.4   1.6   -1.30   22.9   7.4   6.2   1.4
Channing Frye (FC, ORL)   3.2   2.2   -1.98   17.9   6.2   3.0   1.0
Jared Sullinger (FC, BOS)   2.9   1.2   0.51   25.3   9.9   9.5   2.5

I don't know if I agree with this list but it says 33 using advanced stats.
from this site

http://www.numberfire.com/nba/players/power-rankings/centers

[BudweiserCeltic]

   nERD   nF EFF   Fantasy   MPG   PPG   RPG   APG
Paul Millsap (FC, ATL)   11.0   3.1   7.51   33.1   17.8   8.8   3.3
Chris Bosh (FC, MIA)   10.7   3.4   4.86   33.0   18.0   8.0   2.3
DeAndre Jordan (C, LAC)   10.6   3.2   4.67   32.8   11.0   13.2   0.8
Hassan Whiteside (C, MIA)   10.3   3.8   5.00   28.3   12.6   11.1   0.2
Derrick Favors (FC, UTAH)   9.5   3.3   3.43   32.6   16.8   8.6   1.5
Kevin Love (FC, CLE)   9.3   3.0   4.24   33.1   17.2   10.9   2.6
Dirk Nowitzki (FC, DAL)   9.2   3.2   5.16   30.1   17.5   7.0   1.9
Enes Kanter (C, OKC)   9.1   4.3   -0.30   20.4   11.4   8.2   0.6
LaMarcus Aldridge (FC, SA)   8.2   2.8   2.08   29.6   15.8   8.8   1.3
Andre Drummond (FC, DET)   7.9   2.2   6.71   35.1   18.2   16.1   1.0
Blake Griffin (FC, LAC)   7.8   2.2   4.77   34.9   23.2   8.7   5.0
Tim Duncan (FC, SA)   7.6   3.0   1.55   26.6   9.0   8.0   3.0
Festus Ezeli (C, GS)   6.7   3.4   -1.84   19.8   8.6   6.6   0.9
Tristan Thompson (FC, CLE)   6.2   2.5   -1.52   26.9   7.1   9.9   0.8
Pau Gasol (FC, CHI)   6.1   2.2   4.06   30.7   16.1   10.9   2.9
Nikola Vucevic (FC, ORL)   6.1   2.3   3.05   30.3   16.7   8.7   2.5
Ian Mahinmi (C, IND)   5.9   2.6   -0.64   24.2   8.0   7.1   1.4
Karl-Anthony Towns (C, MIN)   5.6   2.0   5.72   28.3   15.9   9.4   1.0
Zaza Pachulia (C, DAL)   5.6   2.0   0.74   28.3   10.0   10.4   1.8
Ed Davis (FC, POR)   5.5   2.4   -1.15   22.0   6.9   7.6   1.1
Andrew Bogut (C, GS)   5.2   3.5   -0.88   20.0   5.5   7.0   2.2
Greg Monroe (FC, MIL)   5.2   1.8   4.08   30.8   15.6   9.5   2.6
Jordan Hill (FC, IND)   4.9   2.4   -0.91   23.1   10.0   7.9   1.3
Steven Adams (C, OKC)   4.8   2.0   -1.26   23.7   6.2   6.2   0.6
Nikola Jokic (C, DEN)   4.8   2.8   -0.71   18.4   8.6   5.4   1.1
Al Horford (FC, ATL)   4.6   1.4   5.56   31.3   15.0   6.9   2.9
Anthony Davis (FC, NO)   4.5   1.4   7.71   36.4   23.6   10.9   1.5
Clint Capela (FC, HOU)   4.3   2.0   -0.58   20.5   7.9   7.0   0.7
Serge Ibaka (FC, OKC)   4.3   1.3   3.79   32.1   13.4   7.1   0.8
Cody Zeller (FC, CHA)   3.9   1.9   -1.90   22.8   8.2   5.1   1.0
Jonas Valanciunas (C, TOR)   3.7   2.8   -3.31   27.3   12.7   9.3   0.4
Taj Gibson (FC, CHI)   3.4   1.6   -1.30   22.9   7.4   6.2   1.4
Channing Frye (FC, ORL)   3.2   2.2   -1.98   17.9   6.2   3.0   1.0
Jared Sullinger (FC, BOS)   2.9   1.2   0.51   25.3   9.9   9.5   2.5

I don't know if I agree with this list but it says 33 using advanced stats.
from this site

http://www.numberfire.com/nba/players/power-rankings/centers

You probably don't... I mean, would you take all those guys ahead of Anthony Davis? :p

[BudweiserCeltic]

Quite a few, he has two elite skills, rebounding and he is top ten in passing.  These are his stats where he ranks among Centers

By Hollinger's rankings 
7th in Rebound Rate
9th in Passing
22nd in Value Added
22nd in Estimated Win added  with 2.3
25th in PER
53rd in TS% with .47

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/trueShootingPct

6th is Steals
8th in RPG
17th in Scoring
17th in FG Percentage   at .424%  Note he is still shooting threes at  .27% clip this year
24th in Fouls Commited
29th in BPG

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/fieldGoalPct/position/centers

CBS has Sully as a PF.

He is 14th in there PF total playing ranking

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerrankings/regularseason/PF

Now he is playing out of his natural position, in his defense.   But one could argue that his stats might be worse in some areas if he was playing PF.   He is a lot slower than some PF and generally has an athletic disadvantage against them.   C's are more in his athletic range, but then he is a not really a C in terms of height.   Brad does not use these positions and it is the NBA that classified him as a C.   Brad uses bigs.

Looking at these stats, he is a nifty passer, good at steals and a good rebounder.   The rest of his skillset is mediocre to poor though he is less foul prone than he used to be in the past.   His offensive game in not good and it is not just about the shots he takes.    He has posted this kinds of shooting percentages since he has been in the league with little or no improvement and in some cases he has regressed.   Truth be told, I hear he is a rotational player that has been thrust into starting.

4s over Sully
Davis, KO, Towns, Ibaka, Milsap, ZBo, Gasol, Griffin, LA, Green, Bosh, Love, Dirk,

5s over Sully
Gasol, Cousins, Drummond, Howard, Vucevic, Val, Hordford, Jordan, Duncan, KG, Favors, Monroe,

This is patently absurd.   I posted these stats so you could see there a quite a few guys that one could are better overall than him.   If what you claim is true, then why no talk of him being an all-star?  You will not find any talk like that outside of Columbus, Ohio or Boston.

He is a mixed bag, each year he starts on fire.   Then the wear and tear of the season takes a toll on him.   His numbers drop and he gets injured has been the pattern of the last few years.   We all hoped this year would be different.   I think he came into camp into better shape, but it still was not enough in the beginning.   It showed some early promise, but he is beginning to falter again, I think.  Let us hope the rest helped him.

That are potentially available ?
Maybe Kevin Love, Zac Randolph?

Realistically this is what it boils down too.

Just to get a bit bigger picture of things:



Full image:
http://i.imgur.com/dwJ82Lq.jpg

[Vermont Green]

He is 14th in there PF total playing ranking

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerrankings/regularseason/PF

These are actually from last season.  I don't know how to find the CBS Sports rankings for this season.

[Snakehead]

One thing I will say is I actually have come to like Sully at C and given that he just doesn't seem like he will lose the weight he should play there.  Not that it's perfect but I think he would be an effective first big off the bench on a really good team.

[Csfan1984]

4s over Sully
Davis, KO, Towns, Ibaka, Milsap, ZBo, Gasol, Griffin, LA, Green, Bosh, Love, Dirk,

5s over Sully
Gasol, Cousins, Drummond, Howard, Vucevic, Val, Hordford, Jordan, Duncan, KG, Favors, Monroe,

This is patently absurd.   I posted these stats so you could see there a quite a few guys that one could are better overall than him.   If what you claim is true, then why no talk of him being an all-star?  You will not find any talk like that outside of Columbus, Ohio or Boston.

What I didn't name enough guys? It says clearly better than Sully. As you posted some of Sully's stats are top 10 and others in the 20s. He is a mixed bag. And how on earth did you get all-star talk if I have 11 or more guys over Sully in both PF and Center. He would never sniff an all star with all those guys better at each slot.

[KeepRondo]

A few weeks ago I didn't want to trade Sully but the dude looks fat again. Been to two games recently, always sit very close, and he looks close to 300 again.

Only way I would keep him is if the plan is 20 mins a night with a reasonable contract.

[Celtics4ever]

Just to get a bit bigger picture of things:

Bigger picture?    What a joke.  Who do you think your fooling?

Presenting stats that Sully is good at I would never see that coming from you   (SARCASM)   How typical of you.   Instead of posting most stats as I did, you cherry pick.   Anyone can see right through that, though, how clever you must think yourself to be?  How many ways can you twist one stat, rebounding?

I clearly stated he is good at rebounding and elite.   You posting 4 or five stats of that area, is not the big picture.   In fact,  excluding the ones that  he is not good at is pretty dishonest.   You should become a politician, I think you have what it takes to succeed there.

What I didn't name enough guys? It says clearly better than Sully. As you posted some of Sully's stats are top 10 and others in the 20s. He is a mixed bag. And how on earth did you get all-star talk if I have 11 or more guys over Sully in both PF and Center. He would never sniff an all star with all those guys better at each slot.

I stand corrected, my bad, sorry.   I have never thought he was an all-star.  But rest assured some here have presented that case.

A few weeks ago I didn't want to trade Sully but the dude looks fat again. Been to two games recently, always sit very close, and he looks close to 300 again.

   

I think Brad had a tighter  leash on him the last two games as well.  But I think it is too short of time to denote a trend.

Only way I would keep him is if the plan is 20 mins a night with a reasonable contract.

I would suggest a weight clause in his contact.

One thing I will say is I actually have come to like Sully at C and given that he just doesn't seem like he will lose the weight he should play there.  Not that it's perfect but I think he would be an effective first big off the bench on a really good team

 

 I think it is a better match for him as well in terms of speed and it is more pushing and positional defense, which he is better at that keeping in front of his man.   I think he has improved in that regard some in the off season but he is a superb help defender.   I wish he worked on his body in the off season like KO has done but it is what it is.   He is a decent player, that greatness will elude him because of decisions he has made regarding his fitness and conditioning levels.

I agree, that is where he lies on an optimum team but we are not that so he plays more.