Sully and Amir vs Zeller and Bass

[Tr1boy]

Which pair is better for CBS system?

Sully and Amir while decent on the defensive end/rebounding department provide little to no spacing on the offensive end.   Teams are laying off of them/daring them to shoot.  While focusing on our other undersized starters. 

No doubt Zeller and Bass are not better as Sully and Amir but that pair last season worked better with what CBS wants to do out there. 

[KeepRondo]

Brad sticking Sully behind the three point line doesn't help Sully. Nor does sticking Amir in the corner help Amir's game.

Sully needs the ball midrange to just inside the arc. From here he is pretty consistent with his jumpshot and can even go from a face up into backing a guy down. It gives him more options. And with the way the team is, they could really use another consistent shooter, which Sully is from mid range.

Pretty much feel like Brad's tactics based off of general analytics is killing Sully's game.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Hard to really compare as the units themselves are different, but the findings don't support your idea. Potentially because of the difference overall in the units, but the units with Amir/Sullinger have been more effective offensively than the ones with Zeller and Bass.

Not only that the units with Amir/Sullinger have also been more effective than that of Amir/Olynyk offensively. Further than that the Sullinger/Olynyk pair this year have been by far the best offensive pair out of all those combinations.

So, for now the Amir/Sullinger combination because of what they bring on both sides of the ball seem like the right pair to have right now with what we have.

[BudweiserCeltic]

One thing worth exploring is having more Olynyk paired with Johnson. Those two, maybe because of the units they've been involved in and against, have been very effective defensively.

Further more, Lee and Sullinger together have been effective as well.

In all of this the most I can say is that Sullinger is a solid presence with just about any of our bigs, he's consistent on that regard. And with that in mind, and considering how bad Olynyk and Lee have been together overall, it might be time to change with whom this players spend the most time with in the court.

There's always Zeller to come back into the rotation and see how it goes, but for what we're using, that'd be my suggestion.

[pearljammer10]

One thing worth exploring is having more Olynyk paired with Johnson. Those two, maybe because of the units they've been involved in and against, have been very effective defensively.

Further more, Lee and Sullinger together have been effective as well.

In all of this the most I can say is that Sullinger is a solid presence with just about any of our bigs, he's consistent on that regard. And with that in mind, and considering how bad Olynyk and Lee have been together overall, it might be time to change with whom this players spend the most time with in the court.

There's always Zeller to come back into the rotation and see how it goes, but for what we're using, that'd be my suggestion.

I too think the KO/Johnson pairing would be one of our better big man duos.

[BDeCosta26]

Which pair is better for CBS system?

Sully and Amir while decent on the defensive end/rebounding department provide little to no spacing on the offensive end.   Teams are laying off of them/daring them to shoot.  While focusing on our other undersized starters. 

No doubt Zeller and Bass are not better as Sully and Amir but that pair last season worked better with what CBS wants to do out there.

I don't think Zeller and Bass really made the team any better than the Sully/Amir line-up does. Probably the opposite, but I don't have the stats in front of me.

The thing is, if you think that teams are laying off Sully and Amir on the perimeter is a major problem, the Bass/Zeller combo would be even worse in that regard. Zeller played really efficiently as a pick and roll guy last year, but even his mid-range shot is suspect. His inability to hit the mid-range is a big part of why he hasn't played much this year. Bass extended his reliable mid-range out to 3 at times, but he wasn't much better of a shooter than Sully is. The Amir/Sully combo has certainly been an upgrade over the Bass/Zeller combo. Better defense, better spacing, a lot better passing and rebounding. Sullinger has been solid all year. Amir has been good defensively but can make a bigger impact, IMO.

The important thing is how well the other guys play. Sully/Amir have been pretty consistent in what they bring every night. If they're your best starting option (debatable, but reasonable), then you have to be able to reliably score in other ways. If Thomas is the only one we can rely on to score consistently, were gonna have problems against better teams. Bradley and Olynyk need to have some actions run for them to get open shots. Crowder needs to keep hitting his 3's and I think we need to start pushing Jerebko and Lee to the end of the bench and maybe giving Hunter and Young a few minutes to see if they can hit some shots.

Our recent poor play, or our very good play that came before it, don't hinge on the performance of the Sully/Amir combo. They've been fairly consistent on both sides of the ball, especially Sullinger. Certainly better off with just about any combo of bigs we have than the Zeller/Bass pairing. Our recent poor play has everything to do with our suddenly not-so-suffocating perimeter D and our lack of consistent scoring from guys were relying on to score.

[BDeCosta26]

That's not all to say I think they're the best big combo we have or I wouldn't favor a change to something else, but I don't agree that the Zeller/Bass combo was a better fit for our team than Sully/Amir.

However, I like the idea of starting KO with Amir and having Sully come first off the bench when. I think the starters would benefit from KO's spacing ability and we could give him a chance to be a large component to the offense. The defense should still be okay, and Amir has good chemistry with IT in the P&R, but I'd worry about rebounding. The Sully/KO pairing makes some sense too, but idk if both of their defensive games have improved enough for that.

[Tr1boy]

whichever way you slice it, we need a legit stretch big out there to start/play big mins

Amir/KO  or Sully/KO (try the experiment again)

I didn't mind the Amir signing but I didn't have a good feeling, he would add to what CBS was trying to do last season.

David Lee again, a good vet but not a great fit.

Interesting thought.  Yesterday I watched the Raptors play and feel they might of got the best of losing Amir and gaining Biyombo. And we could of probably had Biyombo. Biyombo is one "long" and athletic dude.    Even though he would of not been a natural fit under CBS , he has the tools to do more than Amir. Grab that impossible offensive rebound, shot block out of nowhere. Game changing capability

[mctyson]

Brad sticking Sully behind the three point line doesn't help Sully. Nor does sticking Amir in the corner help Amir's game.

Sully trails the offense because he is always rebounding.  The offense stagnates if they wait for him to get up the court.  It allows the defense to get set.

One thing I have noticed since the Cleveland game is that the Cs are not running the ball up the court on offense.  This has really hurt Bradley since he gets a lot of looks in transition.  Last night they had ample opportunity to run after a defensive rebound and simply did not press it forward. 

I would rather have this team commit turnovers on the break, trying to run, than have them turn it over in the half-court.  That is a recipe for disaster and all levels of basketball but especially in the NBA.

[chambers]

Which pair is better for CBS system?

Sully and Amir while decent on the defensive end/rebounding department provide little to no spacing on the offensive end.   Teams are laying off of them/daring them to shoot.  While focusing on our other undersized starters. 

No doubt Zeller and Bass are not better as Sully and Amir but that pair last season worked better with what CBS wants to do out there.

Zeller and Bass aren't anywhere near as good as Sully and Amir on the defensive end.
CBS wants to win with defense and multiple shot opportunities. Sully executes plays very well and passes out of the post very well to find open shooters. Zeller and 'no pass Bass' do not.

Defense comes first for us. All the other stuff comes next.

Zeller and Bass= poor defensive duo.

[Celtics4ever]

Zeller and Bass aren't anywhere near as good as Sully and Amir on the defensive end.

Amir perhaps but Sully is only good against slow guys and not the best at help defense. 

Defense comes first for us. All the other stuff comes next.

If this was true, Oly would be playing more isn't he the best statistical big man?

[The Oracle]

Which pair is better for CBS system?

Sully and Amir while decent on the defensive end/rebounding department provide little to no spacing on the offensive end.   Teams are laying off of them/daring them to shoot.  While focusing on our other undersized starters. 

No doubt Zeller and Bass are not better as Sully and Amir but that pair last season worked better with what CBS wants to do out there. 

               
                            pts. per 48     +/-     minutes     3pt. att. per 48     pace
Zeller/Bass 14-15       92.8         -6.2        689                15.4            96.99
Sully/Amir  15-16      102.2        +5.1       446                28.0            98.89

  There is no comparison Zeller and Bass were terrible together last year especially on the offensive end.  Very low 3 pt. att. numbers with very poor spacing and slow pace.  Sully and Amir have been solid together on both ends of the floor with solid spacing and better pace.  If you think there is any comparison between those 2 pairings for a Pace and Space system then I don't know what to tell you.

[chambers]

Zeller and Bass aren't anywhere near as good as Sully and Amir on the defensive end.

Amir perhaps but Sully is only good against slow guys and not the best at help defense. 

Defense comes first for us. All the other stuff comes next.

If this was true, Oly would be playing more isn't he the best statistical big man?

Sully is in the top echelon of post up defenders in the NBA.
He's above average and pick n roll/help but that's beside the point.

The comparison here is Sully and Amir vs Bass and Zeller. You can't have Amir and Zeller or Amir and Bass and the comparison of Sully+Amir vs Zeller and Bass is hands down in the favor of Sully/Amir on both ends of the floor.

Unfortunately for Bass and Zeller though, they haven't played extended time with a perimeter squad of Bradley.Smart/Crowder which I'd really helps Sully+Amir's case.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Zeller and Bass aren't anywhere near as good as Sully and Amir on the defensive end.

Amir perhaps but Sully is only good against slow guys and not the best at help defense. 

Defense comes first for us. All the other stuff comes next.

If this was true, Oly would be playing more isn't he the best statistical big man?

No. Sullinger is better this year, statistically as you mention. The Amir/Olynyk pair has been more effectively defensively though, but then again that may have a lot to do with the units they've been playing against and not necessarily against the other team's best bigs.

[SHAQATTACK]

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