How does Marcus fit in when he comes back?

[34truth]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

He knew his limitations, and explored what he could do. Something Smart is yet to learn

Except Allen never expanded what he could do offensively, he just moved to a team that didn't need him to score so his offensive shortcomings became less evident.

I'd rather have a highly drafted prospect attempt to shatter their limitations rather than admit what they are at 21.

Also, I disagree with what you said in your previous post about him making mistakes as a help defender. Having watched both guys play, Allen was clearly the guy who made mistakes in help defense not Smart.

Not only do you need an eye-check but to realize that sometimes doing what you do best (supposedly driving to the rim) and avoid what you are not that good at (shooting terrible 3s) can make you a better player. So yeah, if you're all for the 3point shot experiment with everyone in the team because they can shatter their limitations then fine. Maybe you could try your luck in the NBA and see if you can shatter some limitations too.

[Evantime34]

Tony Allen was a starter on a good Memphis team, which I think is a safe description of a good team, and I think Smart is every bit as good if not better than Tony Allen right now, let alone where he will be at his peak.

I would be ecstatic if Marcus Smart turns into Tony Allen. In fact, if Smart becomes anything close to Allen, he'll probably be a 12-year starter on any team he goes to. To do this, he needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort, because having a PG who can't make a jump shot or a layup is not a good start.

You are underrating Smart by saying to be more like Tony Allen, Smart needs to learn how to make a bucket of some sort. The Grizzlies have really struggled to score this year, due in most part to teams deciding not guarding Allen is their best defensive strategy. Smart is miles ahead of where Allen was offensively at the same point in his life (Allen was 23 his rookie year, Smart is currently 21). For Allen's first couple years in the league you would see him make mistakes in his defensive rotations, Smart hasn't done that since mid way through his rookie year.

Smart is already every bit of the defender Allen was in his prime. The difference is Smart is elite defensively at 21 where Allen didn't really become an elite playable defender until he hit his prime years.

Sure Smart hasn't put up good percentages this year, but I don't think the 9 games he has played are a representative sample size, especially when several of those game had Smart clearly playing hurt.

The biggest difference between TA and Marcus offensively, besides their style of course, is that Marcus takes shots and TA doesn't.  But both bad offensive players.  In term of style, TA was a slasher who could get to the bucket and finish.  Marcus shoots a lot but he can shoot and he hasn't shown himself to be a consistent finisher either.

As for defense, TA was an elite defender from the get go.  So not sure where that comes from.  But to add to your point that the grizz struggle with TA on the floor, that is absolutely true.  Problem is that will be true for the Celts with Marcus on the floor too.  He may not be a guy who stays on the floor at the end of games because of it.

Allen was a very active defender from the get go but I think you are confusing activity with quality. He often was over aggressive and fell for up fakes early in his career. He is now widely considered an elite defender, but that wasn't the case before he got to Memphis. Had he been considered an elite defender at the time Boston probably is willing to pay the 3-3.5 MM needed to keep him.

As to your comment about Smart not being a guy who stays on the floor at the end of games, that is laughable. He has already shown the clutch gene.

Last year in the "clutch" time (last two minutes of games decided by 5 or less points I believe although I can't seem to find the NBA definition) Marcus Smart shot 53.8% from the field and 64.3% from 3. He is exactly the type of guy you want on the court at the end of games. For that matter his clutch shooting shows that he has the potential to develop into a good shooter imo.

As to Smart making a lot of defensive help mistakes, please pm me next time you see one so I can check it. I'll be waiting, but I don't expect to hear from you.

[D Dub]

Bradley, I think, is maximizing his ability.  But he isn't showing anything at all today that knowledgeable fans didn't already know at that time.  Tough defender who could shoot with shaky ball handling and decision making.  Still the same guy pretty much today that was he then. Difference is experience, role on the team, and confidence (which was the biggest reason he struggled shooting early on).

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=51624.0

Avery can't play


In fact, he's downright awful.

Of course, this has been obvious to me from the get go.  There can't still be believers out there can there?  Unfortunately for Avery, he'll be out of the league within three years easy.

TP

[Evantime34]

Bradley, I think, is maximizing his ability.  But he isn't showing anything at all today that knowledgeable fans didn't already know at that time.  Tough defender who could shoot with shaky ball handling and decision making.  Still the same guy pretty much today that was he then. Difference is experience, role on the team, and confidence (which was the biggest reason he struggled shooting early on).

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=51624.0

Avery can't play


In fact, he's downright awful.

Of course, this has been obvious to me from the get go.  There can't still be believers out there can there?  Unfortunately for Avery, he'll be out of the league within three years easy.

TP

[ssspence]

He is now widely considered an elite defender, but that wasn't the case before he got to Memphis.

Incorrect. He was considered an elite defender before he got to Memphis. And he's now widely considered the best defensive guard of his immediate generation. 

Smart has a long way to go (timewise -- we'll see about skill) before he should be compared to Allen. But he's a far better shooter and handler, if a less good penetrator, than Tony is or was....

[Evantime34]

He is now widely considered an elite defender, but that wasn't the case before he got to Memphis.

Incorrect. He was considered an elite defender before he got to Memphis. And he's now widely considered the best defensive guard of his immediate generation. 

Smart has a long way to go (timewise -- we'll see about skill) before he should be compared to Allen. But he's a far better shooter and handler, if a less good penetrator, than Tony is or was....

It's not incorrect just because you said so. Allen left Boston at the age of 29 after averaging more than 20 minutes during only one season. Allen never made an all defensive team until he left Boston, which is absolutely a measure of an elite defender.

Boston let him go because Memphis guaranteed him a third year  at $3 MM despite Boston being over the cap and having no way to replace him. The C's made a conscious decision to not bring him back because he was too expensive at an extra partially guaranteed year of less than the MLE.

Here is a quote from an article when Allen left

With the Celtics desperately needing defense and youth, re-signing Allen would seem to have been a major priority.

So even a team that desperately needed defense wasn't willing to pay to keep him.

[jpotter33]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

He knew his limitations, and explored what he could do. Something Smart is yet to learn

Except Allen never expanded what he could do offensively, he just moved to a team that didn't need him to score so his offensive shortcomings became less evident.

I'd rather have a highly drafted prospect attempt to shatter their limitations rather than admit what they are at 21.

Also, I disagree with what you said in your previous post about him making mistakes as a help defender. Having watched both guys play, Allen was clearly the guy who made mistakes in help defense not Smart.

Well, Smart makes a lot of help defense mistakes every single game. I disagree with you vehemently. Bradley used to commit way more too, untill Brad Stevens talked to him about it, and this is now more acceptable. Of course I'd rather have Smart because of potential, is this even a question? I just stated a reality, he is yet to learn a lot of stuff that TA does right. One of them is knowing how to play team defense. In general everything you said is completely off to me

I'm sorry, but this is just flat out wrong. Smart is by far our best team defender, along with most likely our best individual defender.

[34truth]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

He knew his limitations, and explored what he could do. Something Smart is yet to learn

Except Allen never expanded what he could do offensively, he just moved to a team that didn't need him to score so his offensive shortcomings became less evident.

I'd rather have a highly drafted prospect attempt to shatter their limitations rather than admit what they are at 21.

Also, I disagree with what you said in your previous post about him making mistakes as a help defender. Having watched both guys play, Allen was clearly the guy who made mistakes in help defense not Smart.

Well, Smart makes a lot of help defense mistakes every single game. I disagree with you vehemently. Bradley used to commit way more too, untill Brad Stevens talked to him about it, and this is now more acceptable. Of course I'd rather have Smart because of potential, is this even a question? I just stated a reality, he is yet to learn a lot of stuff that TA does right. One of them is knowing how to play team defense. In general everything you said is completely off to me

I'm sorry, but this is just flat out wrong. Smart is by far our best team defender, along with most likely our best individual defender.

OK, this discussion is becoming a bunch of You're wrong, Im right hypothesis. I disagree with what you said, Smart commits a lot of mistakes in terms of positioning himself. Some nights, he is nearly perfect, other nights, he is off. Im gonna go ahead, shatter my limitations, and tell you to enjoy your own opinion. I do think he is the best 1 on 1 individual defender we have, and top 3 team defender at least. Doesn't mean he can't (and he probably will) improve. He does bring the great 1 on 1 and ballhogging instincts every night. Team defense? No, I'm sorry

[jpotter33]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

He knew his limitations, and explored what he could do. Something Smart is yet to learn

Except Allen never expanded what he could do offensively, he just moved to a team that didn't need him to score so his offensive shortcomings became less evident.

I'd rather have a highly drafted prospect attempt to shatter their limitations rather than admit what they are at 21.

Also, I disagree with what you said in your previous post about him making mistakes as a help defender. Having watched both guys play, Allen was clearly the guy who made mistakes in help defense not Smart.

Well, Smart makes a lot of help defense mistakes every single game. I disagree with you vehemently. Bradley used to commit way more too, untill Brad Stevens talked to him about it, and this is now more acceptable. Of course I'd rather have Smart because of potential, is this even a question? I just stated a reality, he is yet to learn a lot of stuff that TA does right. One of them is knowing how to play team defense. In general everything you said is completely off to me

I'm sorry, but this is just flat out wrong. Smart is by far our best team defender, along with most likely our best individual defender.

OK, this discussion is becoming a bunch of You're wrong, Im right hypothesis. I disagree with what you said, Smart commits a lot of mistakes in terms of positioning himself. Some nights, he is nearly perfect, other nights, he is off. Im gonna go ahead, shatter my limitations, and tell you to enjoy your own opinion. I do think he is the best 1 on 1 individual defender we have, and top 3 team defender at least. Doesn't mean he can't (and he probably will) improve. He does bring the great 1 on 1 and ballhogging instincts every night. Team defense? No, I'm sorry

You're the one making the controversial claim that seems to go against the popular/majority opinion. Back it up with statistics or evidence that supports your thesis if you want your opinion to hold some validity.

[jpotter33]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

Essentially, this is what I was trying to say in less words and time (was watching my kids and posting on the iphone, which I'm not a fan of). He basically shot corner threes or layups with only the occasional midrange jumpshot, which aided his overall field goal percentage.

[34truth]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

Essentially, this is what I was trying to say in less words and time (was watching my kids and posting on the iphone, which I'm not a fan of). He basically shot corner threes or layups with only the occasional midrange jumpshot, which aided his overall field goal percentage.

That doesn't make any sense. He never shot 3s, or was never good at it. To be a 3 and D guy you actually need to be able to shoot 3s. That's what the popular/majority of people assume.

[littleteapot]

He is now widely considered an elite defender, but that wasn't the case before he got to Memphis.

Incorrect. He was considered an elite defender before he got to Memphis. And he's now widely considered the best defensive guard of his immediate generation. 

Smart has a long way to go (timewise -- we'll see about skill) before he should be compared to Allen. But he's a far better shooter and handler, if a less good penetrator, than Tony is or was....

If I recall correctly he was considered an elite defender but a guy who was completely ignored on offense. Memphis broke the mold a bit by thinking that that was good enough for a guy to be a key rotation piece instead of a more situational player.

[jpotter33]

Smart is already as good if not better than Allen. His stats are all very similar or better than Allen's throughout his career, with the only difference really being his 2 point fg%, which can largely be explained by the fact that Allen was a 3 and D type who mainly shot threes or took lay ups, in fewer attempts at that.

Tony Allen was anything but 3-and-D. He pretty much takes less than a three pointer a game. He was a guy who could make the corner three in a pinch, and mostly made his living off dribble drives and cuts to the basket.

Essentially, this is what I was trying to say in less words and time (was watching my kids and posting on the iphone, which I'm not a fan of). He basically shot corner threes or layups with only the occasional midrange jumpshot, which aided his overall field goal percentage.

That doesn't make any sense. He never shot 3s, or was never good at it. To be a 3 and D guy you actually need to be able to shoot 3s. That's what the popular/majority of people assume.

A little butt-hurt, are we? You couldn't provide any evidence for you opinion that Smart is a horrible team defender, so you moved on to try and critique another one, eh? Good one, chief...

Like I said, I had a six month old in one arm and my phone in the other, so the best way to get my point across was to say he was more of a 3 and D guy who shot fewer threes and more layups, which led to him having a pretty decent overall field goal percentage due to fewer threes and fewer shots overall. All of which is true.

[droopdog7]

Bradley, I think, is maximizing his ability.  But he isn't showing anything at all today that knowledgeable fans didn't already know at that time.  Tough defender who could shoot with shaky ball handling and decision making.  Still the same guy pretty much today that was he then. Difference is experience, role on the team, and confidence (which was the biggest reason he struggled shooting early on).

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=51624.0

Avery can't play


In fact, he's downright awful.

Of course, this has been obvious to me from the get go.  There can't still be believers out there can there?  Unfortunately for Avery, he'll be out of the league within three years easy.

TP

Shoot, I'll give you one for that!

[littleteapot]

Shoot, I'll give you one for that!

You were off by a year. Next week, he's going to retire to become the antichrist and bring 1000 years of darkness upon the earth.